a personal conundrum

[bullwinkle]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

 

[Pogo]

I find the Stars & Bras offensive

Perhaps we should demand that said stars take 'em off. À la Janet Jackson?

Couldn't resist....

 

[Katzndogz]

It's from think progress so it's going to have an evil spin.

The sentiment is correct. Isis, the taliban and al quaeda all destroy history just like liberals in America. So yes, they are just like the terrorists.

 

[Pogo]

Ultimately, it's just a flag, and a flag is just a symbol. People get way too worked up over symbol fetishism, both to the positive and the negative. Ultimately such fetishism is just childish, and should be viewed with the derision such infantile security blanket deserves.

In other words.... Ignore it.

 

[EverCurious]

OP: May I ask, do you look upon the American Flag as disdainfully? She presided over the deaths of millions in war, she dropped nukes. It is a sadness of war yes, but repulsive, shameful? No, merely war, and war is never pretty. We should avoid war of course for our boys die as well, but to be ashamed of it? No, never. Say you will never do it again, and grow wiser from it.

Should we force the Japanese to never display their flag around us, because of their cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor? Or do we admit that it was war, accept their surrender and respect their country's symbol while working together to move on? This is not so dis-similar, the south no longer wished to be part of the USA, they fought to protect what they saw/felt was an invasion on their independent lands. And the north said they were /not/ free lands, and kept them by force, declaring the southerns who had lived upon them as invaders. It was crappy on both sides, but that is the nature of war.

Since the war, for most folks in the south, the stars and bars represents not war, but a way of life. Not slavery, but freedom. As a united nation we should respect how they feel as well, rather than mobbing them by force yet again, to steal all they have left and force them to comply, again. To what end? So that northerners can claim victory? So that southerners are made to surrender again? This is a foolish game to play within a united country, and it seems we've not learned from our previous experiences...

 

[Pogo]

OP: May I ask, do you look upon the American Flag as disdainfully? She presided over the deaths of millions in war, she dropped nukes. It is a sadness of war yes, but repulsive, shameful? No, merely war, and war is never pretty. We should avoid war of course for our boys die as well, but to be ashamed of it? No, never. Say you will never do it again, and grow wiser from it.

Should we force the Japanese to never display their flag around us, because of their cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor? Or do we admit that it was war, accept their surrender and respect their country's symbol while working together to move on? This is not so dis-similar, the south no longer wished to be part of the USA, they fought to protect what they saw/felt was an invasion on their independent lands. And the north said they were /not/ free lands, and kept them by force, declaring the southerns who had lived upon them as invaders. It was crappy on both sides, but that is the nature of war.

Since the war, for most folks in the south, the stars and bars represents not war, but a way of life. Not slavery, but freedom. As a united nation we should respect how they feel as well, rather than mobbing them by force yet again, to steal all they have left and force them to comply, again. To what end? So that northerners can claim victory? So that southerners are made to surrender again? This is a foolish game to play within a united country, and it seems we've not learned from our previous experiences...

All of the above -- stars 'n' stripes, stars 'n' bars, rising sun .... are part of the same symbolmindedness noted above. It's always a dangerous game that invites mob mentality. And it doesn't help that we indoctrinate schoolchildren into a fetish prayer in the morning like so many sheep.

We should avoid war of course for our boys die as well, but to be ashamed of it? No, never. Say you will never do it again, and grow wiser from it.

IMO we should always be ashamed of it, since war represents the ultimate human Failure. Say we'll never do it again and grow wiser, absolutely, but the pitfall comes when it's glorified. All that does is restart the dynamic and ensure that we WILL do it again.

 

[EverCurious]

I disagree, Nationality, Religion... community. These are things that I do not see as bad in and of themselves.

This issue speaks mostly to differing perceptions. If we are to go off perception, then should we also ban the sight of the North Korean flag, their government is not exactly a kindred spirit to our own. Shall we ban the ISIS flag? How much freedom do we think American's should have to express themselves?

Even if you wish to argue it is mere symbolism (and I actually agree) but for the sake of argument, I find California's politics disturbing, should I be allowed to ban the symbol of their state? Should we also ban luxury cars and other symbols of success, because it is clear that a large number of folks are offended by such things. Or do we accept that folks have differing perceptions and welcome that diversity in America? The good, with the bad, and all in between.

 

[EverCurious]

We should avoid war of course for our boys die as well, but to be ashamed of it? No, never. Say you will never do it again, and grow wiser from it.

IMO we should always be ashamed of it, since war represents the ultimate human Failure. Say we'll never do it again and grow wiser, absolutely, but the pitfall comes when it's glorified. All that does is restart the dynamic and ensure that we WILL do it again.

Regret, yes I can agree, but ashamed I do not.

War is a fickle thing, we have teethed upon the glory of war from the beginning, it is a human calling of pride in that which you belong to. A self-important expression of ego to be sure. But these are part of the nature of humans so denying them is pointless. They exist, will always exist, because these things are innate in life - dominance in the quest for reproductive survival, it is a voice that will always speak out. Acceptance of that, even regret of that, but never shame for what we are.

 

[Pogo]

I disagree, Nationality, Religion... community. These are things that I do not see as bad in and of themselves.

This issue speaks mostly to differing perceptions. If we are to go off perception, then should we also ban the sight of the North Korean flag, their government is not exactly a kindred spirit to our own. Shall we ban the ISIS flag? How much freedom do we think American's should have to express themselves?

Even if you wish to argue it is mere symbolism (and I actually agree) but for the sake of argument, I find California's politics disturbing, should I be allowed to ban the symbol of their state? Should we also ban luxury cars and other symbols of success, because it is clear that a large number of folks are offended by such things. Or do we accept that folks have differing perceptions and welcome that diversity in America? The good, with the bad, and all in between.

My starting point, and maybe ending point too, is that symbol-worship such as flag waving (or flag burning, banning etc) is a stupid allocation of psychic power to a material object that doesn't deserve it. Pretty much the same thing as inventing "God" followed quickly by "and He's on our side and tells us to smash the infidels". That's always a dangerous game and has no upside.


The luxury car is a bad analogy, because you can actually get in a luxury car and go somewhere, so it's not only a symbol.

 

[Pogo]

We should avoid war of course for our boys die as well, but to be ashamed of it? No, never. Say you will never do it again, and grow wiser from it.

IMO we should always be ashamed of it, since war represents the ultimate human Failure. Say we'll never do it again and grow wiser, absolutely, but the pitfall comes when it's glorified. All that does is restart the dynamic and ensure that we WILL do it again.

Regret, yes I can agree, but ashamed I do not.

War is a fickle thing, we have teethed upon the glory of war from the beginning, it is a human calling of pride in that which you belong to. A self-important expression of ego to be sure. But these are part of the nature of humans so denying them is pointless. They exist, will always exist, because these things are innate in life - dominance in the quest for reproductive survival, it is a voice that will always speak out. Acceptance of that, even regret of that, but never shame for what we are.

Shame for our flaws is essential --- else we never conquer them. But to throw up one's hands and go "oh well, human nature, nothing we can do" is an equally useless approach. If you continue to do what you've always done, you'll get nothing more than what you've always had.

Yes, I'd say "pride" is an accurate assessment. One of the seven deadly sins. Actually I believe it's Number One..

Ultimately any remembrance of any war --- and there should be remembrance --- should culminate with the phrase "Never Again". Coming out on the "victorious" side of a war should not be a cause for celebration, but for relief that it's over --- in the same way as escaping from a mountain lion. Danger was present; danger is gone. War has no "winner"; it has two losers who lose to different degrees.

 

[OldLady]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

I don't agree with banning it. We should not rewrite history. If it had been banned in 1866, I would understand it. I don't at all understand it now.

 

[HenryBHough]

So this liberal teen hears about those "personal conundrums" but can't find them in the store. So he shoplifts some thread and a couple or needles and stitches his initials into a rubber.........as tho anybody's gonna read it.....even his own children.

 

[Asclepias]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

There should really be no conundrum. The confederate flag in all of its forms represent the losers, traitors, and vile humans that wished to keep Blacks enslaved. The real riddle is how (more than a century later) the US has never fully committed itself to eradicating its error in ignoring the founders declaration that all men are created equal.

Also remember there is no "right" for anyone to demand a foreign traitor flag be displayed on publicly funded building.

 

[Asclepias]

Ultimately, it's just a flag, and a flag is just a symbol. People get way too worked up over symbol fetishism, both to the positive and the negative. Ultimately such fetishism is just childish, and should be viewed with the derision such infantile security blanket deserves.

In other words.... Ignore it.

 

[OldLady]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

Are you from the South? Theoretically, I don't like obliterating history--too USSR. Asclepius' take on the confederate flag, however, made me realize that to some it's a banner of open racism. To others it is a slap in the face of the Union or a symbol of white trailer trash everywhere. Being a white northerner, I have always seen the Stars and Bars as a regional symbol of the South, nothing else. I think those who find its symbols important should be the ones to decide, not Washington D.C.

 

[EverCurious]

It's like I /despise/ bikers, one of the very few things in my day to day life I rant about on sight, I want them off the damn roads, off the sidewalks, I'm tired of paying taxes to put in bike lanes so these fucking pricks can ride in the car lane regardless, paying taxes to put stop signs /all/ along the sidewalk's so they stop shooting across intersections and killing themselves. Only time I have /ever/ had the urge to "beat someones ass" or w/e it was a fucking biker; came up to an intersection to turn right, saw biker on sidewalk 2 intersections away so I pulled up to the stop sign, just so happens there's a slow car so I'm sitting there, this fucking jackass prick slams his fucking bike into the side of my car, then bangs his fist on my window all pissed off that I was blocking the sidewalk, I jumped out and started bitching at him seriously ready to punch him or something... and he was coming at me like he was going to hit me too. Luckily my husband came around the car like hey asshole that's my wife and the guy left me alone. Hubbies only 5'2" but he's has that West Point commander voice that cuts through everything. He made me get back in the car, because I was so mad, while they discussed the dent he put in my car - which sounded more like that fucking pussy biker saying he had every right to run into me. Fuck you pussy biker dude, the Judge told your dumb ass... (That's also when we got miniature stop-signs along all the sidewalks by the way, because these fucking prick bikers were doing it to everyone thinking they didn't have to fucking stop at the intersection.)

So uhm, yea I really do not like that side of myself at all, its an out of control emotional that I [literately] cannot process correctly [synesthesia], and it actually gives me a serious headache, so like no joke, seeing bikers causes me physical pain. Would it be fair for me to ban bikers? Is it the bikers fault that I cannot process anger correctly? Should they have /their/ right to be a biker taken away simply because I have synesthesia? I do not think so, I mean I'd fucking love it no doubt, but... it would be wrong and I would know it was only a matter of time before they banned something /I/ enjoyed because it offended them. I would never ever vote for an ordnance to ban bikers, no matter how much I personally would like it because it is against individual personal freedom to do, and believe, and act as they wish.

Basically, my view: someones flag offends you? Suck it up buttercup, it's part of the price of freedom.

 

[LoneLaugher]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

Stars and bras! Awesome.

 

[flacaltenn]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

When you live on a Civil War battleground, you feel differently about "burying symbols". Because we still have the thousands of rows of headstones, mass graves, and blood on the floors of the local ole mansions. Might as well kick over all the Confederate headstones while you're at it.. Some of them might have "flags" on them.

Send those Yankee leftists down here for a dose of history and let them see how horrible those times were. When they stop puking from the stories of the carnage -- they can clean themselves back up with a "stars and bars" from the gift shop...

 

[LoneLaugher]

This is one of those issues where both opposites resonate with me. I find the Stars & Bras offensive, and think it represents a repulsive American issue of shame that made a lie of our Founding principles. I am in favor of banning the pennant from public government and national sites. Yet I feel the need to protect the rights of preference of those Americans who fought for our nation and think this legislation is wrong. It leaves me drained, although the comparison to ISIS is a tad overdramatic.

House Republican Staffer: If You Don’t Support The Confederate Flag You Are Just Like The Terrorists

When you live on a Civil War battleground, you feel differently about "burying symbols". Because we still have the thousands of rows of headstones, mass graves, and blood on the floors of the local ole mansions. Might as well kick over all the Confederate headstones while you're at it.. Some of them might have "flags" on them.

Send those Yankee leftists down here for a dose of history and let them see how horrible those times were. When they stop puking from the stories of the carnage -- they can clean themselves back up with a "stars and bars" from the gift shop...

Oh! The drama!

Look at who is flying that flag on the back Of their pickups. They don't give a shit about anything that happened yesterday. All they know is that they ain't sharing this country with no *******.

 

[SeniorChief_Polock]

It's like I /despise/ bikers, one of the very few things in my day to day life I rant about on sight, I want them off the damn roads, off the sidewalks, I'm tired of paying taxes to put in bike lanes so these fucking pricks can ride in the car lane regardless, paying taxes to put stop signs /all/ along the sidewalk's so they stop shooting across intersections and killing themselves. Only time I have /ever/ had the urge to "beat someones ass" or w/e it was a fucking biker; came up to an intersection to turn right, saw biker on sidewalk 2 intersections away so I pulled up to the stop sign, just so happens there's a slow car so I'm sitting there, this fucking jackass prick slams his fucking bike into the side of my car, then bangs his fist on my window all pissed off that I was blocking the sidewalk, I jumped out and started bitching at him seriously ready to punch him or something... and he was coming at me like he was going to hit me too. Luckily my husband came around the car like hey asshole that's my wife and the guy left me alone. Hubbies only 5'2" but he's has that West Point commander voice that cuts through everything. He made me get back in the car, because I was so mad, while they discussed the dent he put in my car - which sounded more like that fucking pussy biker saying he had every right to run into me. Fuck you pussy biker dude, the Judge told your dumb ass... (That's also when we got miniature stop-signs along all the sidewalks by the way, because these fucking prick bikers were doing it to everyone thinking they didn't have to fucking stop at the intersection.)

So uhm, yea I really do not like that side of myself at all, its an out of control emotional that I [literately] cannot process correctly [synesthesia], and it actually gives me a serious headache, so like no joke, seeing bikers causes me physical pain. Would it be fair for me to ban bikers? Is it the bikers fault that I cannot process anger correctly? Should they have /their/ right to be a biker taken away simply because I have synesthesia? I do not think so, I mean I'd fucking love it no doubt, but... it would be wrong and I would know it was only a matter of time before they banned something /I/ enjoyed because it offended them. I would never ever vote for an ordnance to ban bikers, no matter how much I personally would like it because it is against individual personal freedom to do, and believe, and act as they wish.

Basically, my view: someones flag offends you? Suck it up buttercup, it's part of the price of freedom.

I ride a motorcycle, asshole
The biggest Harley made
And I'm retired military
And I am getting ready to retire from a second 25 year career
I would bet the farm that I personally paid more in federal, state, and local taxes last year than you earned
Why don't you get off my road ?