A hometown example of the necessity of gun rights

[Gunny]

The only time I dialed 911 was last year when a computer tech working at my home suffered a heart attack. The fire department paramedics arrived in a little over a minute.

Dude, a determined criminal is in your house with a gun to your head BEFORE you finish punching 911 into phone.

 

[Taomon]

How presumptuous of YOU to believe YOU know what God would think of killing another human being in self defense.

When one human being sets out to harm or kill another human being in the commission of a crime, that person's life will be held by me in the same regard in which he holds mine.

Sounds to me like you are waiting for a chance to kill rather than defending yourself.

 

[Taomon]

What martial art would that be? I've studied several for about as many years as you claim to have existed and I've never seen even ONE that says "never kill."

Shaolin Kenpo, and that was our motto.

 

[Gunny]

oooo I am so scared. Gunny, people that make idle threats while hiding behind an anonymous moniker are usually full of shit.

LMAO. I made no idle threat, dude. I made no threat at all. Nor is my intent to scare you. I made a point you obviously chose to overlook in favor of an alarmist personal accusation.

 

[Gunny]

Sounds to me like you are waiting for a chance to kill rather than defending yourself.

Wrong. I have no desire to kill anyone. I would prefer criminals not invade my home. My point is, if they do and are killed as a result, I'll shed no tears over it. They will have reaped what they have sown.

 

[Gunny]

Shaolin Kenpo, and that was our motto.

Kenpo is a generic term referring literally to hand techniques, and is a Japanese word. Shaolin kung fu is Chinese. I take it that it's an American version of an Asian martial art?

 

[Gunny]

Well, then you must live out in the country. Where I live, the emergency response (police, fire, medical) is very rapid and professional. These are essential services and why we pay local taxes.

I live in the 8th largest city in the US. Have lived in most of the top 10. Bigger the city, slower the response.

As an example, and don't start wailing I'm making threats because I am not, it would take me and an M-16 about 3 seconds to bust down your front door and shoot you dead. You can't even REACH your phone in that amount of time, much less make a call.

 

[Gunny]

That's certainly surprising. I heard that the 911 Emergency System in San Diego worked very well - even during the recent wild fires in Southern California. However, San Diego is near bankrupt, and cannot afford to maintain its essential services in competition with other major metropolitan areas.

My bad. 7th largest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Was stationed in SD though.

Point is, law enforcement, unless struck with dumb luck, cannot intervene in the commission of a violent crime unless that crime is dragged out long enough for them to respond. What they do is investigate who killed you.

You have to defend yourself, or you are just another victim. And in case you missed the recent incident in NY where cops shot 24 rounds at abt 10 feet and scored only 8 hits and all over the place, THEY are the ones whose marksmanship is suspect.

We jarheads are tightwads where ammo is concerned. One bullet, one body.

 

[Lookout]

oooo I am so scared. Gunny, people that make idle threats while hiding behind an anonymous moniker are usually full of shit.

Perhaps you should fear the GIANT flower head. It can smile and laugh a person to death. Is that your tickle me elmo doll I hear calling you or did you just sit on your whoopi cushion?

 

[Shogun]

And murder is not only a crime, it is a sin. If that boy dies, the homeowner is liable in a court of law plus a civil case can be brought against him.

Plus, the whole implication that killing another human being has on one's soul cuts deeper into this problem.

I said it before, I am 39 years old. I have lived in some pretty scary places and I have never needed a gun, nor will I ever need one.

This whole thing is a myth.

Well, I'm gonna shake this thread up it seems...

1. I used to take Kempo in HS and am familiar with how destructive it is compared to, say, taikwondo.... Points to you for that... I could go into my own criticisms of the style, though. I'm not really all that impressed with fat white dudes thinking they look badass in a black gi while getting off on being called Sifu. Anyway, let me quote my namesake:


Sho'nuff: Well, well, well. If it isn't the serious, elusive Leroy Green. I've been waiting a long time for this, Leroy. I am sick and tired of hearing these bullshit Superman stories about the wassa legendary Bruce Leroy catching bullets with his teeth. Catches bullets with his teeth? Nigga please.

the point being that no matter how bad ass you think you are during point tourneys you are NOT as deadly as the guy holding the gun.


2. I don't care what god thinks is a sin about self defense. Even if I weren't an athiest he shoulda been keeping watch and making an effort to discourage the criminal rather than condemning me for preserving, uh, by body, his temple. See, even non-believers can talk the talk.


3. During an attack no one is making bob villa shoulda, woulda, coulda observations of a door being kicked in.

4. You are wrong about the legal ramifications of the shooting in this case. the shooter was legally defending himself and we all know that we'd all do the same thing if put in his shoes.

5. THE INTRUDER DIED THIS WEEKEND. I don't celebrate the loss of life but I don't feel sorry for him either.


Wounded home-invasion suspect dies

A man shot yesterday by a resident of an east-central Columbia apartment while apparently trying to break into the residence died today at University Hospital, police said.

Henry L. Brown, 23, of 7601 N. Highway VV was pronounced dead at 1:43 p.m. at University Hospital, Columbia police Sgt. Ken Hammond said in a news release. The cause of death was a single gunshot wound to the neck, Hammond said.

Officers were dispatched just after midnight yesterday to an apartment at 216 Old 63 N. to reports of shots fired, police said. Two residents, an 18-year-old male and 19-year-old female, reported that two men had tried to break into the apartment by kicking in the front door.

The male resident fired a small-caliber handgun as the two men were entering the apartment, police said. The intruders then ran off. Officers were later alerted to a gunshot victim at Boone Hospital Center, who was then transported to University Hospital, police said.

Police determined during investigation that Brown was one of the two suspects who had attempted to enter the apartment, Hammond said.


Tables turned on would-be thief, intruder

Police: Two cases end in confrontations.

By T.J. GREANEY of the Tribune’s staff
Published Sunday, December 30, 2007

Two more potential victims and two more cases of people fighting back.

A 20-year-old woman walked to her car Friday night outside Houlihan’s Restaurant and Bar on East Broadway and found Farooq Saalik, 37, breaking in and trying to steal a backpack, Columbia police said.

The woman struggled with Saalik, who threatened to shoot her and brandished a knife, but apparently he was spooked by the confrontation and ran away, police said. No one was injured.

Police arrived and saw him entering a nearby Applebee’s restaurant, and they arrested him. Saalik faces charges of first-degree robbery and armed criminal action.

In a second case, a Columbia man was startled by the sound of an intruder trying to break in through the front door of his apartment on Columbia Drive at 6:25 a.m. yesterday, police said.

He opened the door to find 19-year-old Christopher Lee, who police said was severely impaired by drugs or alcohol and trying to push his way into the man’s apartment.

The victim, who police would not identify, wrestled the man to the ground and beat him in the face. The victim was not injured.

When police arrived, Lee continued to struggle, and an officer used a Taser device to subdue him.

Lee is being charged with resisting arrest, possession of marijuana, property damage and trespassing.

These cases come after a Thursday confrontation in which police said Henry Brown was shot while trying to break in an apartment at 216 Old 63 N.

Brown later died, and police have said the shooter, 18-year-old Alvin Canton, acted in a manner of self-defense that is protected by Missouri’s so-called castle doctrine. The law took effect earlier this year and allows homeowners to use deadly force against unlawful intruders.

Despite these examples, Columbia police said it’s still generally better not to fight unless in direct self-defense.

"I don’t believe any piece of property is worth getting seriously injured over," Columbia police Sgt. Dianne Bernhard said.

"Our recommendation is to go call the police and get as far away from the suspect as you can. If that’s not possible, go along with what they ask for up to a point. ... In any case, do not fight over property." Bernhard said defending your home is a "different story."

Tim Oliver of Hallsville said victims rarely are faced with such clear-cut decisions. Oliver is a former Columbia police officer, a lobbyist for the right to carry weapons and also works as a defensive tactics instructor.

"If you could somehow know that all they want is the money, you’d throw them the car keys and the wallet and say, ‘See you,’ but the problem is you don’t know," he said.

Oliver, 55, advocates a method he calls being "a bad victim."

Criminals, like sharks, often will "bump" victims with a question meant to size up their vulnerability.

Oliver recalled a recent encounter with someone he believes intended to steal his car at a gas station along North Highway 63.

A large man crossed the street and approached Oliver directly, saying, "Hey, what kind of car is that?"

Eager to be friendly but on alert, Oliver told the man the car’s make and model and moved to the opposite side of the car and started using a squeegee. The man followed up by saying, "I bet it gets good gas mileage." Oliver agreed.

The man then took a step closer and said in a commanding voice, "I’d sure like to have that car."

Immediately, Oliver put his hand in his coat pocket and said in a loud voice, "That’s close enough. You better leave now."

Oliver said the man’s eyes got wide, and he retreated.

With assertive actions like this, Oliver said, victims fight back without getting physical. Physical confrontation or deadly force, he said, should always be a last resort.

"If you feel like you’re at risk of serious physical injury and death, you have two choices," he said.

"Either let the person injure or kill you or fight back. For a lot of people, that’s the answer. If you don’t, you’re like a sheep being led to slaughter."

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2007/Dec/20071230News003.asp



6. If you plan on looking into burglary as an occupation then don't move to Missouri.

 

[Gunny]

Well, I'm gonna shake this thread up it seems...

1. I used to take Kempo in HS and am familiar with how destructive it is compared to, say, taikwondo.... Points to you for that... I could go into my own criticisms of the style, though. I'm not really all that impressed with fat white dudes thinking they look badass in a black gi while getting off on being called Sifu. Anyway, let me quote my namesake:


Sho'nuff: Well, well, well. If it isn't the serious, elusive Leroy Green. I've been waiting a long time for this, Leroy. I am sick and tired of hearing these bullshit Superman stories about the wassa legendary Bruce Leroy catching bullets with his teeth. Catches bullets with his teeth? Nigga please.

the point being that no matter how bad ass you think you are during point tourneys you are NOT as deadly as the guy holding the gun.


2. I don't care what god thinks is a sin about self defense. Even if I weren't an athiest he shoulda been keeping watch and making an effort to discourage the criminal rather than condemning me for preserving, uh, by body, his temple. See, even non-believers can talk the talk.


3. During an attack no one is making bob villa shoulda, woulda, coulda observations of a door being kicked in.

4. You are wrong about the legal ramifications of the shooting in this case. the shooter was legally defending himself and we all know that we'd all do the same thing if put in his shoes.

5. THE INTRUDER DIED THIS WEEKEND. I don't celebrate the loss of life but I don't feel sorry for him either.


Wounded home-invasion suspect dies

A man shot yesterday by a resident of an east-central Columbia apartment while apparently trying to break into the residence died today at University Hospital, police said.

Henry L. Brown, 23, of 7601 N. Highway VV was pronounced dead at 1:43 p.m. at University Hospital, Columbia police Sgt. Ken Hammond said in a news release. The cause of death was a single gunshot wound to the neck, Hammond said.

Officers were dispatched just after midnight yesterday to an apartment at 216 Old 63 N. to reports of shots fired, police said. Two residents, an 18-year-old male and 19-year-old female, reported that two men had tried to break into the apartment by kicking in the front door.

The male resident fired a small-caliber handgun as the two men were entering the apartment, police said. The intruders then ran off. Officers were later alerted to a gunshot victim at Boone Hospital Center, who was then transported to University Hospital, police said.

Police determined during investigation that Brown was one of the two suspects who had attempted to enter the apartment, Hammond said.


Tables turned on would-be thief, intruder

Police: Two cases end in confrontations.

By T.J. GREANEY of the Tribune’s staff
Published Sunday, December 30, 2007

Two more potential victims and two more cases of people fighting back.

A 20-year-old woman walked to her car Friday night outside Houlihan’s Restaurant and Bar on East Broadway and found Farooq Saalik, 37, breaking in and trying to steal a backpack, Columbia police said.

The woman struggled with Saalik, who threatened to shoot her and brandished a knife, but apparently he was spooked by the confrontation and ran away, police said. No one was injured.

Police arrived and saw him entering a nearby Applebee’s restaurant, and they arrested him. Saalik faces charges of first-degree robbery and armed criminal action.

In a second case, a Columbia man was startled by the sound of an intruder trying to break in through the front door of his apartment on Columbia Drive at 6:25 a.m. yesterday, police said.

He opened the door to find 19-year-old Christopher Lee, who police said was severely impaired by drugs or alcohol and trying to push his way into the man’s apartment.

The victim, who police would not identify, wrestled the man to the ground and beat him in the face. The victim was not injured.

When police arrived, Lee continued to struggle, and an officer used a Taser device to subdue him.

Lee is being charged with resisting arrest, possession of marijuana, property damage and trespassing.

These cases come after a Thursday confrontation in which police said Henry Brown was shot while trying to break in an apartment at 216 Old 63 N.

Brown later died, and police have said the shooter, 18-year-old Alvin Canton, acted in a manner of self-defense that is protected by Missouri’s so-called castle doctrine. The law took effect earlier this year and allows homeowners to use deadly force against unlawful intruders.

Despite these examples, Columbia police said it’s still generally better not to fight unless in direct self-defense.

"I don’t believe any piece of property is worth getting seriously injured over," Columbia police Sgt. Dianne Bernhard said.

"Our recommendation is to go call the police and get as far away from the suspect as you can. If that’s not possible, go along with what they ask for up to a point. ... In any case, do not fight over property." Bernhard said defending your home is a "different story."

Tim Oliver of Hallsville said victims rarely are faced with such clear-cut decisions. Oliver is a former Columbia police officer, a lobbyist for the right to carry weapons and also works as a defensive tactics instructor.

"If you could somehow know that all they want is the money, you’d throw them the car keys and the wallet and say, ‘See you,’ but the problem is you don’t know," he said.

Oliver, 55, advocates a method he calls being "a bad victim."

Criminals, like sharks, often will "bump" victims with a question meant to size up their vulnerability.

Oliver recalled a recent encounter with someone he believes intended to steal his car at a gas station along North Highway 63.

A large man crossed the street and approached Oliver directly, saying, "Hey, what kind of car is that?"

Eager to be friendly but on alert, Oliver told the man the car’s make and model and moved to the opposite side of the car and started using a squeegee. The man followed up by saying, "I bet it gets good gas mileage." Oliver agreed.

The man then took a step closer and said in a commanding voice, "I’d sure like to have that car."

Immediately, Oliver put his hand in his coat pocket and said in a loud voice, "That’s close enough. You better leave now."

Oliver said the man’s eyes got wide, and he retreated.

With assertive actions like this, Oliver said, victims fight back without getting physical. Physical confrontation or deadly force, he said, should always be a last resort.

"If you feel like you’re at risk of serious physical injury and death, you have two choices," he said.

"Either let the person injure or kill you or fight back. For a lot of people, that’s the answer. If you don’t, you’re like a sheep being led to slaughter."

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2007/Dec/20071230News003.asp



6. If you plan on looking into burglary as an occupation then don't move to Missouri.

I wouldn't suggest Texas either. We have range marks between LA Z Boy and door, and have holstered gun on LA Z Boy.

 

[Taomon]

LMAO. I made no idle threat, dude. I made no threat at all. Nor is my intent to scare you. I made a point you obviously chose to overlook in favor of an alarmist personal accusation.

Yeah, check out post #41.

 

[Taomon]

Kenpo is a generic term referring literally to hand techniques, and is a Japanese word. Shaolin kung fu is Chinese. I take it that it's an American version of an Asian martial art?

Yes. I studied under a white instructor in Upstate NY. That doesn't negate or belittle what I was taught and those previously mentioned precepts are a good code of ethics as well.

 

[Shogun]

Check out the rants and raves at craigslist for columbia missouri. Targetmasters is getting booming business. 2007 has been a criminal year here. Hell, it was only a couple years ago where one of our city cops cut the throat of this gay student lover. Last month, i believe, a teenager was RAPED while her siblings were held captive by some thug bastard who broke in while the parents were out. While notoriously liberal this town has had about enough of the bullshit.


Life happens... Be prepared.

 

[Taomon]

I live in the 8th largest city in the US. Have lived in most of the top 10. Bigger the city, slower the response.

As an example, and don't start wailing I'm making threats because I am not, it would take me and an M-16 about 3 seconds to bust down your front door and shoot you dead. You can't even REACH your phone in that amount of time, much less make a call.

Gunny, how many home invasions in the US involve automatic weapons? Who has access to an M-16?

 

[Taomon]

Well, I'm gonna shake this thread up it seems...

1. I used to take Kempo in HS and am familiar with how destructive it is compared to, say, taikwondo.... Points to you for that... I could go into my own criticisms of the style, though. I'm not really all that impressed with fat white dudes thinking they look badass in a black gi while getting off on being called Sifu. Anyway, let me quote my namesake:


Sho'nuff: Well, well, well. If it isn't the serious, elusive Leroy Green. I've been waiting a long time for this, Leroy. I am sick and tired of hearing these bullshit Superman stories about the wassa legendary Bruce Leroy catching bullets with his teeth. Catches bullets with his teeth? Nigga please.

the point being that no matter how bad ass you think you are during point tourneys you are NOT as deadly as the guy holding the gun.


2. I don't care what god thinks is a sin about self defense. Even if I weren't an athiest he shoulda been keeping watch and making an effort to discourage the criminal rather than condemning me for preserving, uh, by body, his temple. See, even non-believers can talk the talk.

Dude, I have never needed a gun and you are perpetuating a myth. Nice reference to the Last Dragon, funny ass movie.

Think what you want about me, but I am 39 and never needed a gun. The thing about guns is that once you buy one, your chances of being involved in a violent crime escalate drastically. I wonder why that is.

 

[Bern80]

That is where you are wrong. I am not a bleeding heart. But I will not condone self defense laws that allow citizens to kill - no matter what the circumstance.

Now I have a wife, daughters and an elderly mother in-law in my home. I do not need a gun to negate a home invasion. Why do you gunny?

Because of course the police will arrive in time, right? Or you will wrestle them to death I suppose? People like you who have irrational fears of firearms are the problem.

 

[Bern80]

Dude, I have never needed a gun and you are perpetuating a myth. Nice reference to the Last Dragon, funny ass movie.

Think what you want about me, but I am 39 and never needed a gun. The thing about guns is that once you buy one, your chances of being involved in a violent crime escalate drastically. I wonder why that is.

Also innacurate. You will learn quick around here if you spout bull shit, until you can back it up, it's just that.

 

[Shogun]

Dude, I have never needed a gun and you are perpetuating a myth. Nice reference to the Last Dragon, funny ass movie.

Think what you want about me, but I am 39 and never needed a gun. The thing about guns is that once you buy one, your chances of being involved in a violent crime escalate drastically. I wonder why that is.

No, the MYTH is that you are remotely capable of fending off an attacker with a gun by using martial arts better than by using your own gun. Just so you know, there is no bullet blocking dit da jow either.

You may never need a gun because you are never in the same situation that the above 19 year old kid was in. I hope you never have to face that kind of situation and can keep on being the martial arts badass. Hell, I enjoyed the white guy kung fu fantasy of the late 70s and early 80s too. I assure you, though, that your particular examples really isn't applicable to the greater pattern of criminal deterrence.

In regards to your stat... I'm willing to bet that home intruders are fended off more with the use of firearms than martial arts. If your hands are the only protection your fam is worth then so be it. This is America you have every ounce of prerogative to believe the way you do. However, given the specific examples I"VE posted of rampant criminal behaviour I'll be over here in Missouri with a gun.


Police searching for suspect who shot Tae Kwon Do instructor

http://web1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI67628/

 

[Gunny]

Yeah, check out post #41.

There's no threat there, junior. I don't make threats. If I decide I need to do something you just find me in your face.