A Double Standard

[insein]

Originally posted by SpidermanTuba
Actually, I was well aware of this investigation since January. But at that time, all you warmongers claimed it was just the silly liberal media conspiring to defame our Fearless War President.




That's right, we shouldn't hold Shrub accountable for his actions, he's infallible and to critisize the President is unAmerican and unDemocratic.





Well gee, I'm sorry you felt coverage of that story wasn't in depth enough. Perhaps you'd prefer it get reprinted everyday in its entirety for a month, even though we have absolutely no new information related to it? Meanwhile, as the investigation in to US war crimes progresses and new information comes out everyday, we'll just ignore that.

Besides, I thought all you wanted to hear was good news from Iraq. News about Iraqi mobs dragging the bodies of US contractors through the streets isn't exactly good news, is it? Don't you think it'd be better not to even talk about it, you know, for the troop morale and public support thing?



You are aware that we are in Iraq, fighting these insurgents, aren't you?


You just don't get it. We are supposed to be outraged when our troops commit atrocities because we aren't like that. WE ALREADY KNOW terrorists are bad, and you expect everyone to act surprised when they start brutally killing people?

And i am outraged. But im further outraged when it became apparent why the liberals are up in arms. Calling for the head of Rumsfield at this juncture is entirely premature. Let the investigation be completed and if it is shown that Higher officials had a say in this then by all means, hold those accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

I was one of the first people to say this was appalling. I was one of the first to say that this was beneath us and that it puts a bad mark on our troops image. But to have these statements like America is forming gulags and that we are the new Nazi's is ludicrous. To attack rumsfield for the crimes of 7 to 12 soldiers of the 200,000 under his command in the way that people are is ludicrous. Question his methods, question his knowledge but to call for his resignation is premature.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

. I merely said that it was hypocritical of liberals to be up in arms of this but laid back when our people get killed.

And its typical of warmongers to sit back and point fingers at everyone else when its clear as day there is trouble in their own house.

You are the one so laid back about our people getting killed. I'm not the one who sent nearly 750 US servicemen off to die in an unneccessary invasion. They are dying over their for you and Shrub's political goals and you have the nerve to accuse me of being laid back about our people getting killed? You and the rest of the warmongers are the ones sending them to their deaths, not me.

But none of there stories are heard. None of the schools that are built, or the hospitals, or the resetablishing life for these people by the Thousands of other soldiers over there are heard.

Really? Then HTF did you hear about those stories? Would you stop bitching about war being mostly bad news? If you want to hear nothing but good news about war, you can open your own damn newspaper and print only happy stories, I'm sure warmongering sheep like yourself who don't want to hear the truth would be happy to read it.

Typical warmonger diversionary behavior. You find out we've got torture camps, and all you can think to do is change the subject. Go figure.

. The crimes of a few are causing the whole to be seen as evil.

And what else do you expect? Welcome to the real world.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

And i am outraged. But im further outraged when it became apparent why the liberals are up in arms. Calling for the head of Rumsfield at this juncture is entirely premature. Let the investigation be completed and if it is shown that Higher officials had a say in this then by all means, hold those accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

I agree, I would call for Shrub's resignation. He's the one who set up the gulags. He took away all these people's rights, and then you are surprised when their rights are violated !?!?!?!? I mean, what did you honestly expect would happen when these people were classified as not being human beings?

 

[insein]

Originally posted by SpidermanTuba
I agree, I would call for Shrub's resignation. He's the one who set up the gulags. He took away all these people's rights, and then you are surprised when their rights are violated !?!?!?!? I mean, what did you honestly expect would happen when these people were classified as not being human beings?

More slanderous accusations when proof is absent. A few isolated incidents and now you say we have gulags and death camps over there all of a sudden. Yep Bush or shrub as you so colorfully call him, personally went on a crusade to rid the world of the Arab people. Why go all the way to the Middle East when we have quite a large Arab population at home. Couldnt we have just put them in concentration camps ala WW2 with the Japanese? Woulda saved us alot of time wouldnt you think?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

A few isolated incidents and now you say we have gulags and death camps over there all of a sudden.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where I said death camps. Are you putting words in my mouth? Naw, not you, you've never done that before!!!




Are you going to tell me why we should be surprised that the rights of prisoners whom Shrub fails to recognize the rights of have been violated, or change the subject again?

 

[insein]

Originally posted by SpidermanTuba
I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where I said death camps. Are you putting words in my mouth? Naw, not you, you've never done that before!!!

Are you going to tell me why we should be surprised that the rights of prisoners whom Shrub fails to recognize the rights of have been violated, or change the subject again?

We will when you show me the evidence of prisoners having their rights taken away on the Grand scale that you have laid out.

As for the other comment, no you didnt say death camps. But when you call them gulags and say people have no rights and are murdered there what does that imply? Besides you have clearly stated that this is a widespread phenomena so you must have some evidence of this occuring. Or is it classified and you cant release that information because our delicate minds will be blown. Please enlighten me to these gulags and concentration camps of the American nay the BUSH EMPIRE!!!

 

[proud_savagette]

Why are liberals so outraged at bush? Like you, spidermantuba, or whatever your sn is. Tell me why you don't seem to realize that the people in these camps were planning something against us or did something against us???? Do you not care? Is Bush incorrect for getting his priorities straight? And what I mean by that is this: the media, for example, calls this the "Iraqi Abuse Scandal," whereas they refer to 9/11 as a "tragedy." Um,hello people! Bush switched those two around, and he took action.

HAve you seen the pictures of the four men who were hung over a bridge? have you read the story? In case you haven't, hear you go:
Slain Americans hung from bridge

Iraqis drag bodies from ambush site

By Jeffrey Gettleman

The New York Times


FALLUJAH, Iraq - Four Americans working for a security company were ambushed and killed Wednesday, and an enraged mob then jubilantly dragged their burned bodies through the streets of downtown Fallujah, hanging two of the mangled corpses from a bridge over the Euphrates River.

Less than 15 miles away, in the same area of the increasingly violent Sunni Triangle, five American soldiers were killed when a roadside bomb ripped through their armored personnel carrier.

The day's violence was one of the most brutal outbursts of anti-American rage since the war in Iraq began more than a year ago. The steadily deteriorating situation in the Fallujah area, a center of anti-American hostility west of Baghdad, has become so precarious that no American soldiers or Iraqi forces responded to the attack against the civilians, who worked for a North Carolina firm.

American officials said the civilians were traveling in two sport utility vehicles, but some witnesses in Fallujah said there were four.

"Two got away; two got trapped," said Muhammad Furhan, a taxi driver.

It is not clear what the four Americans were doing in Fallujah. But just as they were passing a strip of stationery stores and kebab shops around 10:30 a.m., masked gunmen jumped into the street and blasted their vehicles with assault rifles. Witnesses said the civilians did not shoot back.

There are a number of police stations in Fallujah and a base of more than 4,000 Marines nearby, but even as the security guards were being swarmed and their vehicles set on fire, sending plumes of inky smoke over the city's closed shops, there were no ambulances, no fire engines and no assistance.

Instead, Fallujah's streets were thick with men and boys and chaos.

Men with scarves over their faces hurled bricks into the blazing vehicles. A group of boys yanked a smoldering corpse into the street and ripped it apart. Someone then tied a chunk of flesh to a rock and tossed it over a telephone wire.

"Viva mujahedeen!" shouted Said Khalaf, a taxi driver. "Long live the resistance!"

Nearby, a boy no older than 10 ground his heel into a burned head.

"Where is Bush?" the little boy yelled. "Let him come here and see this!"

Masked men gathered around him, punching their fists into the air. The streets filled with hundreds of people.

"Fallujah is the cemetery of Americans!" they chanted.

Several news crews filmed the mayhem. The images of a frenzied crowd mutilating bodies were reminiscent of the scene from Somalia in 1993, when a mob dragged an American soldier's corpse through the streets of Mogadishu. That moment shifted public opinion and eventually led to an American pullout.



Now tell me what the big deal is about this Iraq thing! Sure, it shouldn't have happened, but compare the two and tell me which is worse. And then think about the people who jumped out of the freaking World Trade Center to their death, because they were dead either way! What about that? What is with you sickos and your sympathy for the enemy????

I wish I could post the pictures of the Fallujah men and the people jumping out of the World Trade Center, just so you slimeballs can compare. But I most likely would need permission first...they're rather graphic.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Why are liberals so outraged at bush?

Would you like a complete answer to that question? If so, I'll need a $1000 advance to write the first volume.

Tell me why you don't seem to realize that the people in these camps were planning something against us or did something against us????

How do you know that?

Is Bush incorrect for getting his priorities straight?

What priorities? Oh, you mean
1) get reelected
2) Use the Constitution as toilet paper
3)get reelected
4) Pretend international law does not apply to him
5) get reelected
6) set up gulags for undesirables
7) get reelected
8) make a war vet look like a coward and a coward look like a hero
9) get reeelcted
10) toss Vice president Cheney's salad
Yeah, what a great list of priorities shrub has.

HAve you seen the pictures of the four men who were hung over a bridge?

Yeah, I have, how many times do I need to see it before I'm allowed to think about other things? Am I allowed to thing about anything else in this country other than how evil the enemy is? Is that the only thought that is allowed? I personally recommend we set aside 7 days out of the year called "Hate Week," where we can all concentrate real hard on how evil the enemy is.

 

[insein]

And with that, spidey here is exposed for the Bush-hating fraud that he is.

 

[proud_savagette]

Would you like a complete answer to that question? If so, I'll need a $1000 advance to write the first volume.

I was actually referring to this situation only, with the Iraqis, thank you. and it was rather rhetorical.

How do you know that?

Um, do I really have to answer that? Okay, perhaps some people are innocent, but I highly doubt that. Would you like to tell me how they got in prison if they were not part of the fighting? Have you ever talked to someone in the military and asked them what they thought of peaceful Iraqis? Hmm? I have, and I tend to believe my own sources, considering one is of the 101st Airborne, who ate DINNER with NORMAL IRAQIS and enjoys their company VERY MUCH, which makes me think that he and his company didn't throw INNOCENT people in there, and my cousin, who is a Navy SEAL! That's how I know! Are you happy???? Of course not! you're suffering from a mental disorder--liberalism! oh, how could I forget?

What priorities? Oh, you mean 1) get reelected 2) Use the Constitution as toilet paper 3)get reelected 4) Pretend international law does not apply to him 5) get reelected 6) set up gulags for undesirables 7) get reelected 8) make a war vet look like a coward and a coward look like a hero 9) get reeelcted 10) toss Vice president Cheney's salad Yeah, what a great list of priorities shrub has.

You are ignorant. Kerry is not a hero by any means, if you meant that being a war vet made him one. He was in there for what, three months??? My cousin has been serving for four years, and no one thanks him, because he doesn't gallivant around going "Oh, I got a purple heart for a minor wound that was covered by a big band-aid."

This weekend, John Kerry told a huge, baldfaced, lie about his war records. No doubt about it. Not spin, not "mis-speaking." He lied. He said anyone could go to his headquarters and check out the records. A reporter showed up on Monday, and Kerry's people told him to get lost. More accurately, they withheld a bunch of stuff he wanted to see.

Remember, now, Bush released ALL of his records.

Realizing that a reputation for waffling AND lying would be worse than a reputation for waffling, Kerry is releasing more records, although he still hasn't matched Bush's effort.

A lot of people are very suspicious of Kerry's first Purple Heart, because his former commanding officer said it came from a wound that resembled "a fingernail scrape," and that he resisted allowing Kerry to apply for a medal. The information released today seems to confirm the story. It says shrapnel was "removed" from his left arm, antibiotic and a bandage were applied, and Kerry went back to work immediately.

I had always thought Purple Hearts were for serious injuries. Now that I know how easy it is to get one, I'll never be impressed by one again. Not unless it comes with a story better than Kerry's.

The other Purple Hearts were apparently for more-substantial wounds. But we have been told that Kerry never missed a day of duty because of a wound, so either they were still minor wounds or Kerry is such a he-man that he thinks devastating injuries are no reason to miss work.

I'm not a big fan of ego-driven alpha males as leaders. Public servants should have the attitude that they exist for the benefit of society, and not the other way around. When you elect a self-absorbed, egotistical President, you're likely to end up with a Clinton or LBJ dynamic. You're likely to end up with a guy whose mission is to glorify and enrich himself, while he lets the country go to seed. Clinton often put himself first and the country last, and I suspect that Kerry would do the same thing.

I may be wrong, but my impression is that George Bush has a sincere desire to improve the US and the rest of the world. And he seems to take great pains to share the glory; he has even gone out of his way to include political enemies like Hillary Clinton in his efforts. I think he sees the Presidency more as a collection of obligations than as a means of building a monument to himself.

Our alternative is Kerry, who got a Purple Heart for a minor cut, and who tumbles down the slopes while snowboarding and then tells reporters who witnessed it, "I don't fall," and calls a Secret Service agent who got in his way a son of a bitch.

I don't understand why Kerry is so reluctant to expose his past. He wants to portray himself as strong on defense, so you'd think he would be proud to have his Vietnam record out there. I suppose he's embarrassed by the iffy Purple Hearts, and maybe he's not eager for Democrats to learn that he is believed to have killed about twenty Viet Cong. That's just a guess on my part. The VC were South Vietnamese rebels, and the American left worshipped them as martyrs. Maybe Kerry is afraid that if the public learns he killed 20 South Vietnamese rebels, they'll see him as a baby-killer no better than Bush.

The Viet Cong were the enemy, and Kerry was SUPPOSED to kill them, but that explanation won't go over big with the large "million Mogadishus" portion of the left which is truly anti-American. These people would give anything to see Iraq turn into a true analog for Vietnam, so they could ride around on buses and have big protests and riots, instead of little ones everyone ignores and laughs at.

Anyway, the records kerfuffle is just more evidence that Kerry and his people have no idea how to run a campaign. They managed to take a strength and turn it into a weakness. Let's hope they don't learn from their mistake.

Don't call him a hero. He's not. He really IS a coward.

Yeah, I have, how many times do I need to see it before I'm allowed to think about other things? Am I allowed to thing about anything else in this country other than how evil the enemy is? Is that the only thought that is allowed?

Oh, poor baby doesn't want to think of the men hanging off bridges...oh, he wants to be nice to the enemy. What, are you allowed to pretend that 9/11 didn't happen? So you can "think about other things?" We're at war, you--oh I can't say it cause I don't want to get booted off!!!! People like you are what's destroying the country! You don't want to focus on what has been done to us! It's all about destroying it from the inside, by tearing Bush apart because he acted when 9/11 occurred, and in case you didn't know, if you're a Clinton lover, the 9/11 commission just found out that the little pervert could have nabbed bin Laden several times! What do you think of that? We're doing a bad job in Iraq because of you Liberals! You won't let our troops do anything! They're comparable to a street cop--they can't protect themselves because they can't fire their weapons unless fired upon, which puts their lives a step below the Iraqi "insurgents." Oh, and yes, I do know this, as I mentioned earlier, so don't give me that again. You heartless S.O.B., what about the pictures of people jumping out of the WTC? They had families, but these people came over here and took them away from their loved ones. Doesn't that make you angry? Or does that just make you saaaaad, we need to syyyyyympathize with the enemy, don't we? You make me sick!

 

[Avatar4321]

Gulags. you know, you keep using that word. I dont think it means what you think it means.

If the United States was running gulags you wouldnt be posting squat on the web. Youd be in jail or dead for speaking out.

We have men and women fighting and dying for your right to speak out and be ungrateful. Men and women who have more honor and dignity then you will ever have have given everything they had for your freedom. They will be sanctified and saved for their actions. You will be condemned on the day of judgement for yours unless you realize the error of your ways and repent.

We are fighting Vietnam all over again. Not in the way the liberals think though. Like Vietnam, we are winning in Iraq. But the left of this nation is going to try to change the tide like they did in Vietnam. They want us to pull out of Iraq and have all the soldiers who died have died in vain. When we pulled out of Southeast Asia millions of people were slaughtered. Thanks to the likes of John Kerry and his fellow Radicals. We will not let that happen in Iraq.

You people seem to forget that we didnt start us. The Terrorists attacked us. We would have left them alone if they left us alone but since they want to kill us and destroy all the freedoms we have in our Republic we have two choices. Fight them with everything we have or die doing nothing. There are no other options with these savages.

 

[proud_savagette]

Amen to that! :clap1:

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Would you like to tell me how they got in prison if they were not part of the fighting? Have you ever talked to someone in the military and asked them what they thought of peaceful Iraqis? Hmm? I have, and I tend to believe my own sources, considering one is of the 101st Airborne, who ate DINNER with NORMAL IRAQIS and enjoys their company VERY MUCH, which makes me think that he and his company didn't throw INNOCENT people in there, and my cousin, who is a Navy SEAL! That's how I know! Are you happy???? Of course not! you're suffering from a mental disorder--liberalism! oh, how could I forget?

A mental disorder? Yeah, I'm the one suffering from a mental disorder because I think that just because someone likes peaceful Iraqis doesn't make them immune to making mistakes. Boy, you know, if we could just hire cops who liked peaceful citizens, we would have no need for a justice system, because the cops would never make a mistake and arrest the wrong person! That's brilliant! You need to take that idea straight to Congress! The billions of dollars we waste every year to make sure we're punishing the right people could be saved if we just had cops who liked peaceful citizens! What a great idea! You should run for President, you've figured out a way to completely eliminate an entire branch of government!

Wow, you know people in the military, that's great. I asked another warmonger on another board how he knew these people were guilty, and he used the same lame explanation. Fact is, you don't know that the people we are holding aren't guilty because your friends in the military and every other single freaking human being on earth is capable of making mistakes.

Now other than heresay evidence and your own twisted rationalization of "well the soldiers like peaceful Iraqis so they could not possibly make a mistake and arrest the wrong Iraqis," how do you know?

Kerry is not a hero by any means, if you meant that being a war vet made him one. He was in there for what, three months??? My cousin has been serving for four years, and no one thanks him, because he doesn't gallivant around going "Oh, I got a purple heart for a minor wound that was covered by a big band-aid."

By the fact that you are always talking about how you know other people who have served, I gather you yourself have not. Neither have I. You know what? That makes John Kerry a better man than the both of us. And to correct you obvious ignorance, he was there for nearly 18 months from November of 1968 till April of 1969. Bother to research what you wish to talk about instead of going on what you've heard from people.

He lied. He said anyone could go to his headquarters and check out the records.

JOHN KERRY'S MILITARY RECORDS

Remember, now, Bush released ALL of his records.

What, two years after he was elected? Just what part of John Kerry's military history do you want to see that cannot be found in his military records at the previously posted link? Let me know, I will do my best to find them for you. Be specific.

A lot of people are very suspicious of Kerry's first Purple Heart, because his former commanding officer said it came from a wound that resembled "a fingernail scrape," and that he resisted allowing Kerry to apply for a medal.

Boy, its ashame for Shrub they only award Purple Hearts for wounds one receives under enemy fire, or he would have gotten one everytime his coked up drunkass bumped his head entering the cockpit of his plane. Tell me, how many finger nail scrape wounds have you received from shrapnel while being shot at by people who want to kill you?

The other Purple Hearts were apparently for more-substantial wounds. But we have been told that Kerry never missed a day of duty because of a wound, so either they were still minor wounds or Kerry is such a he-man that he thinks devastating injuries are no reason to miss work.

You know, its really ashame for America Shrub's unit didn't get called. He wouldn't have accepted any Purple Hearts for any wounds that didn't kill him. Nope, our great War President Shrub, had he been sent to Nam, would have selflessly charged enemy positions, taking bullets to the chest, to save his unit. Hell, had Shrub gone, we might have even won the war! But sad to say, his unit never got called, and the world will never have known what a great hero he was.

When you elect a self-absorbed, egotistical President, you're likely to end up with a Clinton or LBJ dynamic.

Or even a Shrub!

Our alternative is Kerry, who got a Purple Heart for a minor cut,

Oh no! We wouldn't want someone who got a Purple Heart for a minor got! God no! Much better to have someone whose daddy got him into the National Guard to stay out of Nam altogether!

and who tumbles down the slopes while snowboarding and then tells reporters who witnessed it, "I don't fall," and calls a Secret Service agent who got in his way a son of a bitch.

I certainly can't think of anytime President Bush has been overheard calling people dirty names, no!

These people would give anything to see Iraq turn into a true analog for Vietnam,

Yeah, that's right, we want another Vietnam, keep telling yourself that. We really enjoy our brothers and sisters going off to die in an unneccessary war, sure, we want that. It's the warmongers who don't want people to die in unneccessary wars, that's why they send them to die in unneccessary wars. Right.

Don't call him a hero. He's not. He really IS a coward.

If John Kerry is a coward, then what does that make George Bush? Oh, right, anyone who bothered to compare their military histories would surely conclude Bush was the great hero of Vietnam and Kerry was a total coward. The military only awards bronze and silver stars for cowardice.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Gulags. you know, you keep using that word. I dont think it means what you think it means.

My bad, Gulags refer specifically to Soviet detainment camps where undesirables were sent. What do you call American detainment camps where undesirables are sent? Do we have a name for it yet?

Men and women who have more honor and dignity then you will ever have have given everything they had for your freedom.

Which is why it's really ashame the are being used by Shrub for his political purposes.

You will be condemned on the day of judgement for yours unless you realize the error of your ways and repent.

That's right, Jesus sends people to hell for not supporting war, because Jesus loves war. Sorry, I must have been sick that day in Catholic school. I suppose then I would have read the part about how Jesus advocated that the Jews free themselves by lighting Rome on fire and rounding up all Roman royalty and putting them in detainment camps. I'm sure Jesus will send me straight to hell for not advocating that 28 kilotons of explosives be dropped on Iraq, or that thousands and thousand of his children who happened to be draftees in the Iraqi army get slaughtered, or that 10,000 Iraqis be rounded up and disappeared into detainment camps. Jesus is all for those things.He loves bombs and he loves bullets. He especially loves it when the most powerful nation on earth decides to beat the crap out of one of the poorest and weakest, Jesus was all about the strong triumping over the weak.

They want us to pull out of Iraq and have all the soldiers who died have died in vain. When we pulled out of Southeast Asia millions of people were slaughtered.

Yeah, and guess what's going to happen in Iraq? We leave in 1 year or 100, when we go, they will start killing each other. Didn't we learn a dam thing from Nam? There is a difference between this war and nam. 1 year into nam, 70% of people approved, one year into Iraq, barely half do.
Why did we fight in Vietnam again?

John Kerry and his fellow Radicals.

You consider John Kerry a radical?

You people seem to forget that we didnt start us.

Yeah, actually we did. If you go back and read the news stories from a year ago, you'll see that it was indeed the US that invaded Iraq, not the other way around.

The Terrorists attacked us.

What the hell do the terrorists have to do with Iraq?

We would have left them alone if they left us alone but since they want to kill us and destroy all the freedoms we have

That's right, they hate us for our freedom, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Republic we have two choices. Fight them with everything we have or die doing nothing. There are no other options with these savages.

And yet you advocate diverting all the money from the war on terrorism to invade Iraq? What kind of sense does that make?

 

[proud_savagette]

You seem to be missing the point completely.

A mental disorder? Yeah, I'm the one suffering from a mental disorder because I think that just because someone likes peaceful Iraqis doesn't make them immune to making mistakes. Boy, you know, if we could just hire cops who liked peaceful citizens, we would have no need for a justice system, because the cops would never make a mistake and arrest the wrong person! That's brilliant! You need to take that idea straight to Congress! The billions of dollars we waste every year to make sure we're punishing the right people could be saved if we just had cops who liked peaceful citizens! What a great idea! You should run for President, you've figured out a way to completely eliminate an entire branch of government!

Have you ever heard of the procedure the police must go through before making an arrest? And what are you getting at? Cops DO like peaceful citizens--why wouldn't they? You make no sense. Just because they like peaceful citizens doesn't mean there aren't going to be people rising up and being stupid because they're hateful. You obviously don't know how to write a comprehensible paragraph in this case.

Wow, you know people in the military, that's great. I asked another warmonger on another board how he knew these people were guilty, and he used the same lame explanation. Fact is, you don't know that the people we are holding aren't guilty because your friends in the military and every other single freaking human being on earth is capable of making mistakes.

Now, first off, I said there COULD be some people in there that are innocent, but according to my cousin, who would probably be very angry at your flippant remark, because one mistake in his career could cost him his life while he's protecting your sorry little butt, there are two different personalities in them. You know, one is peace-loving, and the others are the ones holding the guns and setting of the bombs? You know? And perhaps you heard it from the other guy for one reason...perhaps it's TRUE!

Now other than heresay evidence and your own twisted rationalization of "well the soldiers like peaceful Iraqis so they could not possibly make a mistake and arrest the wrong Iraqis," how do you know?

Hearsay evidence? HEARSAY? Oh, yeah, my cousin, who works with these people, counts as hearsay? The man from 101st Airborne, who worked directly with these people, is hearsay? Their knowledge of the enemy vs. the Iraqi CITIZENS is hearsay? Riiiiight.
And don't quote me saying something I didn't. I didn't say those exact words, and you know it. Your twisted liberal mind obviously can't understand things the way they were written.

By the fact that you are always talking about how you know other people who have served, I gather you yourself have not. Neither have I. You know what? That makes John Kerry a better man than the both of us. And to correct you obvious ignorance, he was there for nearly 18 months from November of 1968 till April of 1969. Bother to research what you wish to talk about instead of going on what you've heard from people.

Ah, yes, protect Kerry...the one who did nothing about the terrorist warning at Logan Airport...yes, let's protect him. Well, let's see what one of his buddies in Nam said about him, shall we? Oh, for the record, my exaggeration of his time in Nam referred to actual battle, actual fighting, actual service--in my opinion he spent a lot of time screwing around, as you will read in the following article:
A Vet Questions John Kerry's Military Service

By FrontPage Magazine
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 20, 2004

The following was sent to a Marine chat net by a retired Marine Master Sergeant who was in S-2, 3rd Bn, 1st Marines, Korea in 1954. It calls into serious question John Kerry's military actions in Vietnam. We present it to give our readers another perspective to the media's one-sided "war hero" adulation, and to open his actions to the light of public discourse. -- The Editors.

I was in the Delta shortly after John Kerry left. I know that area well. I know the operations he was involved in well. I know the tactics and the doctrine used, and I know the equipment. Although I was attached to CTF-116 (PBRs) I spent a fair amount of time with CTF-115 (swift boats), Kerry's command.

Here are my problems and suspicions:


(1) Kerry was in-country less than four months and collected a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts. I never heard of anybody with any outfit I worked with (including SEAL One, the Sea Wolves, Riverines and the River Patrol Force) collecting that much hardware that fast, and for such pedestrian actions. The Swifts did a commendable job, but that duty wasn't the worst you could draw. They operated only along the coast and in the major rivers (Bassac and Mekong). The rough stuff in the hot areas was mainly handled by the smaller, faster PBRs.


(2) He collected three Purple Hearts but has no limp. All his injuries were so minor that he lost no time from duty. Amazing luck. Or he was putting himself in for medals every time he bumped his head on the wheel house hatch? Combat on, the boats were almost always at close range. You didn't have minor wounds, at least not often. Not three times in a row. Then he used the three Purple Hearts to request a trip home eight months before the end of his tour. Fishy.

(3) The details of the event for which he was given the Silver Star make no sense at all. Supposedly, a B-40 was fired at the boat and missed. Charlie jumps up with the launcher in his hand, the bow gunner knocks him down with the twin .50, Kerry beaches the boat, jumps off, shoots Charlie, and retreives the launcher. If true, he did everything wrong.
(a) Standard procedure when you took rocket fire was to put your stern to the action and go balls to the wall. A B-40 has the ballistic integrity of a frisbie after about 25 yards, so you put 50 yards or so between you and the beach and begin raking it with your .50's.
(b) Did you ever see anybody get knocked down with a .50 caliber round and get up? The guy was dead or dying. The rocket launcher was empty. There was no reason to go after him (except if you knew he was no danger to you just flopping around in the dust during his last few seconds on earth, and you wanted some derring-do in your after-action report). And we didn't shoot wounded people. We had rules against that, too.
(c) Kerry got off the boat. This was a major breach of standing procedures. Nobody on a boat crew ever got off a boat in a hot area. EVER! The reason was simple: If you had somebody on the beach, your boat was defenseless. It coudn't run and it couldn' t return fire. It was stupid and it put his crew in danger. He should have been relieved and reprimanded. I never heard of any boat crewman ever leaving a boat during or after a firefight.

Something is fishy.

Here we have a JFK wannabe (the guy Halsey wanted to court martial for carelessly losing his boat and getting a couple people killed by running across the bow of a Japanese destroyer) who is hardly in Vietnam long enough to get good tan, collects medals faster than Audie Murphy in a job where lots of medals weren't common, gets sent home eight months early and requests separation from active duty a few months after that so he can run for Congress. In that election, he finds out war heroes don't sell well in Massachsetts in 1970, so he reinvents himself as Jane Fonda, throws his ribbons in the dirt with the cameras running to jump start his political career, gets Stillborn Pell to invite him to address Congress and has Bobby Kennedy's speechwriter to do the heavy lifting. A few years later he winds up in the Senate himself, where he votes against every major defense bill and says the CIA is irrelevant after the Berlin Wall came down. He votes against the Gulf War (a big political mistake since that turned out well), then decides not to make the same mistake twice so votes for invading Iraq -- but that didn't fare as well with the Democrats, so he now says he really didn't mean for Bush to go to war when he voted to allow him to go to war.

I'm real glad you or I never had this guy covering out flanks in Vietnam. I sure don't want him as Commander-in-Chief. I hope that somebody from CTF-115 shows up with some facts challenging Kerry's Vietnam record. I know in my gut it's wildy inflated.

Thank you. Oh, and to your cutesy little touch of putting his military records website on there, he just did that, after people got p.o.ed with him not showing his own stuff despite the fact that he was questioning Bush's. Do you not remember hearing this on the radio, hm? Oh, never mind, liberal radio STINKS. No talent in THAT category. How about on television? It was quite a large thing for those of us who pay attention and don't follow blindly, because indeed I don't. I'm not a huge Bush lover, I'm really not. But I believe Bush is the lesser of two evils...and the only reason he has declined in quality of command is because of you liberals--he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't. You guys never let him win. And no one wanted to know about Bush's record. He didn't have people questioning his honesty because he was tearing apart his opponent's record, did he? Oh, and by the way, I haven't served because of a little thing called BEING UNDER AGE. Therefore, he is no better than I at this point, because I haven't had the chance. So, sorry, that argument is null.

Boy, its ashame for Shrub they only award Purple Hearts for wounds one receives under enemy fire, or he would have gotten one everytime his coked up drunkass bumped his head entering the cockpit if his plane. Tell me, how many finger nail scrape wounds have you received from shrapnel while being shot at by people who want to kill you?

I am rather shocked at your hatred for pilots. Piloting a plane is very difficult to do--and yes, since my family has a military history, you are going to hear about how my grandfather trained pilots in World War II and how my father flies planes frequently--the small ones, not the commercial ones. What, do you think flying is easy? What about flying under fire? You think it's easy to dodge that, eh? Then you're a fool. Because it's not. This is where your line of expertise draws to a close. You are talking to a girl raised hearing about airplanes specifically, so don't give me any of that "coked up drunkass" crap. You couldn't take off like that, let alone dodge bullets! How ignorant are you about airplanes, for pete's sake? Do you know why there are no purple hearts for people who fly planes? DO YOU? NO, OF COURSE NOT! YOU COULDN'T REASON OR USE LOGIC TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT MOST PILOTS WIND UP DEAD IF THEY GET SHOT DOWN, YOU MORON! THEY'RE DEAD!!!!

You know, its really ashame for America Shrub's unit didn't get called. He wouldn't have accepted any Purple Hearts for any wounds that didn't kill him. Nope, our great War President Shrub, had he been sent to Nam, would have selflessly charged enemy positions, taking bullets to the chest, to save his unit. Hell, had Shrub gone, we might have even won the war! But sad to say, his unit never got called, and the world will never have known what a great hero he was.

nice sarcasm. it's not his fault he didn't get sent there. And what is so shocking about him being willing to risk his life in battle? You obviously don't think he'd do it, but then again, you're dumb enough to think that Kerry is a hero.

Or even a Shrub!

Oh yeah, let's see--how many sex scandals has there been since Bush was in office? hmm...who didn't take the chance to nab bin Laden? hmm....

Oh no! We wouldn't want someone who got a Purple Heart for a minor got! God no! Much better to have someone whose daddy got him into the National Guard to stay out of Nam altogether!

So now it's his dad's fault that Bush didn't go to Vietnam. You know, a Bush adviser accused Mr. Kerry of pretending to throw away his medals to protest against the war in 1971. He has reportedly said for years that he threw away his RIBBONS, not MEDALS. But during a 1971 interview re-aired on ABC, Mr. Kerry said he tossed away as many as NINE war medals, the Washington Post reported. The terms "ribbons" and "medals" were interchangeable, the newspaper reported him as saying. Yeah, some hero you got there. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3662439.stm
the source for you, in case you don't believe me, which you probably don't.

I certainly can't think of anytime President Bush has been overheard calling people dirty names, no!

Please name a time when Bush said something like that to a Secret Service Agent in front of a bunch of reporters. I would like to hear about it.

Yeah, that's right, we want another Vietnam, keep telling yourself that. We really enjoy our brothers and sisters going off to die in an unneccessary war, sure, we want that. It's the warmongers who don't want people to die in unneccessary wars, that's why they send them to die in unneccessary wars. Right.

Oh, I see. This is an UNNECESSARY war....ohhh....so we should...what...just let the terrorists come and kill us and we can all just sit here and wait for it to happen....hmm...and then no blame will go to the liberal media, of course, for the failure of the war, because they're liberals, and they control the news, so they twist everything, give away our position....make it so any fool with a radio or tv could listen in and figure out how to strike...and yes, if you would like to know some examples, just ask, cause there are tons of them....yeah....this war is so unnecessary....we should all just accept the fact that these Muslims want to take over the world....alot of you liberals hate christians anyway...you just don't realize that they're out to get you too.

If John Kerry is a coward, then what does that make George Bush? Oh, right, anyone who bothered to compare their military histories would surely conclude Bush was the great hero of Vietnam Kerry was a total coward.

First off, I never said that Bush was the great hero of Nam, now did I? When you compared the two, I simply stated that in terms of heroes, Bush is way ahead of Kerry. After all, he's trying to protect his country with all of you liberals tearing at his throat every single second.

 

[proud_savagette]

Yeah, actually we did. If you go back and read the news stories from a year ago, you'll see that it was indeed the US that invaded Iraq, not the other way around.

HOW IGNORANT MUST YOU BE??????? We went there to remove Saddam from power because he was a threat to us and to his people. And then, terrorists who come in through SYRIA and surrounding countries, and, by the way, these savages from other countries were found in Fallujah, so yes, terrorism DOES have something to do with Iraq, you strange twisted person.

That's right, they hate us for our freedom, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Do you understand the Muslim religion? Do you??? Radical Islam wants us DEAD. They always have, and they always will. What, you think talking to them is going to help? You liberals are so pathetic. They don't talk or negotiate. They just don't. Read some history about these muslims. go ahead. See how much they conquered before they were finally stopped. And with all the political correctness in the world, thanks to YOU LIBERALS, these people will succeed someday in turning the world into their stupid Islamist nation. Then we'll see how happy you are, if they haven't killed you by then.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Have you ever heard of the procedure the police must go through before making an arrest? And what are you getting at? Cops DO like peaceful citizens--why wouldn't they?

Oh, Cops DO like peaceful citizens? Then why do we need courts? I thought people who liked peaceful people never arrested the wrong people!

Just because they like peaceful citizens doesn't mean there aren't going to be people rising up and being stupid because they're hateful.

I'm not quite sure what that means. But I know one thing, we don't need courts in this country. I mean, like you said, since the military people over in Iraq like the peaceful Iraqis, they only arrest the bad Iraqis, so, since the cops over here like peaceful citizens, they never arrest the wrong person. Why have courts?

Just because they like peaceful citizens doesn't mean there aren't going to be people rising up and being stupid because they're hateful.

Yeah, you're the one proposing that merely because the soldiers in Iraq like peaceful Iraqis they never make mistakes and arrest the wrong people, and you're insulting my intelligence?

Now, first off, I said there COULD be some people in there that are innocent, but according to my cousin, who would probably be very angry at your flippant remark, because one mistake in his career could cost him his life while he's protecting your sorry little butt

Oh yes, were we not in Iraq, the Iraqis would be crossing the US border right now and killing us all.

, there are two different personalities in them. You know, one is peace-loving, and the others are the ones holding the guns and setting of the bombs? You know?

That's an interesting anecdote, does it have a point? You know, there's two sides to people, and you know, my cousin says so, and you know, there could be innocent people in there but I don't think so, because, like, you know, my cousin says every person has two sides. Yeah, you're making no sense whatsoever.
Now other than your anecdotal and heresay evidence, do you have any real valid evidence that you know who is in these so-called prisons? I didn't think so, I guess I'm just supposed to take your cousins word, because, you know, he likes peaceful Iraqis, and that must mean there's no peaceful Iraqis in prison.

Hearsay evidence? HEARSAY? Oh, yeah, my cousin, who works with these people, counts as hearsay? The man from 101st Airborne, who worked directly with these people, is hearsay? Their knowledge of the enemy vs. the Iraqi CITIZENS is hearsay?

I'm sorry, how was I supposed to know you have no freaking clue what heresay evidence is? Let me help you out.
hearsay - 1. Information heard from another 2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than on the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible.
You are providing information heard from another, therefore, it is heresay. Notice the definition does not say "Information heard from another, unless that another happens to be a brave cousin or friend fighting in Iraq." Now if you cousin or friend could tell me directly what they saw, that would not be heresay. But I doubt you're cousin or friend has seen and interviewed every single Iraqi detainee, so anything they said would likely be hearsay as well. Now, do you have any real evidence?

I didn't say those exact words, and you know it. Your twisted liberal mind obviously can't understand things the way they were written.

Jeez, I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to say that all the people in prison in Iraqi deserve to be there because US soldiers like peaceful Iraqis. If that's not what you were saying, then what were you saying?

Ah, yes, protect Kerry...

I wasn't protecting him, I was correcting your gross ignorance. You stated Kerry served in Nam under 3 months. You are wrong. It was 18. You know what though, Kerry could have served 10 minutes in Vietnam and he still would have served inifinitely longer in Nam than your hero Shrub.

A Vet Questions John Kerry's Military Service

Does this Vet even have a name? I am to take the word of a supposed vet who writes into a chat room and doesn't even bother to give his name?

. Oh, and to your cutesy little touch of putting his military records website on there, he just did that, after people got p.o.ed with him not showing his own stuff

Well, that's what you fricking wanted him to do wasn't it? What's the problem, he did it?

Oh, never mind, liberal radio STINKS.

Liberal radio? There is such a thing? Where do I find it?

and the only reason he has declined in quality of command is because of you liberals

Yeah, whatever, he's got a Republican Congress and a Republican Supreme Court, but its still the liberals' fault. WTF ever.

Oh, and by the way, I haven't served because of a little thing called BEING UNDER AGE.

Gee, I would have never guessed. What are you? 12?

Therefore, he is no better than I at this point, because I haven't had the chance.

No, you see, Kerry is a better man than you, as you aren't even a man yet.

I am rather shocked at your hatred for pilots. Piloting a plane is very difficult to do--

WTF? I suggest its ashame Shrub didn't get Purple Hearts for being so drunk he bumped his head getting into the cockpit, and that means I hate pilots? Just exactly how did you draw that conclusion little man?

you are going to hear about how my grandfather trained pilots in World War II and how my father flies planes frequently

In WW II, my grandfather shot pilots down. Relax, they were Japanese pilots.

What about flying under fire? You think it's easy to dodge that, eh?

Yeah, Bush did a lot of flying under fire, WTF is you point here?

You are talking to a girl raised hearing about airplanes specifically, so don't give me any of that "coked up drunkass" crap.

My bad, you're a girl. So tell me little girl, WTF does you being raised hearing about airplanes have to do with the President's former cocaine and drinking problem? Anything? What do airplanes have to do with his former cocaine and drinking problem, other than that he bumped his head everytime he got in the cockpit? Anything?

Do you know why there are no purple hearts for people who fly planes?

I know they don't award Purple Hearts to people who have never been in combat.

DO YOU? NO, OF COURSE NOT! YOU COULDN'T REASON OR USE LOGIC TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT MOST PILOTS WIND UP DEAD IF THEY GET SHOT DOWN, YOU MORON! THEY'RE DEAD!!!!

yeah, and you know what happens when you die in combat? You get 10000 bucks and guess what... a PURPLE HEART. Listen little lady, you need to calm down. That's great your Dad is a pilot and everything and your grandpa and my grandpa both shot down Japs but from different angles, but I'm really failing to see what it has to do with Shrub's drunkeness and mediocre service to his country in time of war. Your right, it takes brains and guts to fly planes, which is why the Guard eventually got some sense in them and grounded ole Shrubby.

nice sarcasm. it's not his fault he didn't get sent there.

Yeah keep telling yourself that. Ole Shrubbie joined the National Guard 15 days before his student deferment was set to expire. In those days, the national guard didn't go to fight foreign wars, they stayed at home. And magically, ole Shrub jumped to the top of the waiting list, no doubt pushing some poor guy without rich and powerful parents further down the list and into Vietnam. And when it came time to indicate his preference for service, did he check Vietnam? NOPE! You're pretty ignorant on this point, if he wanted to go to Vietnam he wouldn't have joined the National Guard 15 days before he would have been eligible for the draft. If he wanted to go to Vietnam, he would have joined the Army or Navy and requested to be assigned to combat duty in Vietnam - just like, can you guess who? That's right. John Kerry. John Kerry's such a wimp he actuall asked to go to Vietnam, and Shrub is such a hero he actually asked to stay home. Make a lot of sense, sure.

And what is so shocking about him being willing to risk his life in battle?

Hmm, how bout the fact that he chose to stay home and hide out in the Guard? Just a thought.

You obviously don't think he'd do it, but then again, you're dumb enough to think that Kerry is a hero.

That's right, I'm the dumb one for thinking someone who asked to go to Vietnam is a hero and someone who asked to stay home isn't.

Oh yeah, let's see--how many sex scandals has there been since Bush was in office?

Boy you know, you're right, at least there aren't any sex scandals. Probably because Shrub doesn't have sex. I'd much rather he crap on the Constitution, waste billions of dollars, commit war crimes, and lie to us about why we are going to war that get head in the Oval Office and lie about it. You know why ole Shrub will never be guilty of lying under oath? Because he will never testify under oath.

So now it's his dad's fault that Bush didn't go to Vietnam.

Well considering it was his Dad that got him moved to the top of the National Guard waiting list, yeah, you're absolutely right.

Please name a time when Bush said something like that to a Secret Service Agent in front of a bunch of reporters.

Oh! I'm sorry, the President is allowed to call people dirty names, as long as they're not Secret Servicemen, right! I get it now.

Oh, I see. This is an UNNECESSARY war....ohhh....so we should...what...just let the terrorists come and kill us and we can all just sit here and wait for it to happen....hmm

I fail to see how invading Iraq prevents terrorism in the US. Perhaps you could explain.

because they're liberals, and they control the news, so they twist everything,

That's right, the 1000's of conservative talk shows in this country are really controlled by liberals, its a grand conspiracy.

give away our position....make it so any fool with a radio or tv could listen in and figure out how to strike...

I'm sorry, was Geraldo working for a liberal TV station when he gave information out on TV? Wasn't it FOX? FOX the liberal news stations? uh huh, right.

we should all just accept the fact that these Muslims want to take over the world....

That's right, all Muslims want to take over the world, sure. How many Muslims do you know?

alot of you liberals hate christians anyway...

WTF are you talking about? Jesus was a liberal.

After all, he's trying to protect his country with all of you liberals tearing at his throat every single second.

Just exactly what kind of techniques do your parents use to brainwash you? Don't worry young one, one day, you'll grow up, get out of the house, discover the myriad of world views and opinions other than your parents', and you'll realize how much of a evil person George Bush is. Hell, I expect in a few years I'll run into you at a Phish show, you'll have flowers in your hair and a big fat joint in your hand, and you'll be talking about how everything your parents ever taught you about politics was mush.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

HOW IGNORANT MUST YOU BE??????? We went there to remove Saddam from power because he was a threat to us and to his people.

Correct my ignorance, how was Saddam a threat to us?
And if we went there to save the Iraqis, how come Shrub said we wouldn't go if Hussein disarmed his WMD? Wouldn't Hussein still have been free to massacre his people with conventional weapons then?

And then, terrorists who come in through SYRIA and surrounding countries, and, by the way, these savages from other countries were found in Fallujah, so yes, terrorism DOES have something to do with Iraq, you strange twisted person.

Well of course NOW terrorism has something to do with Iraq, duh. You saying its perfectly acceptable to use the entire country of Iraq as a rat trap? Kind of not nice, turning these people's country into a war zone so we can attract all the terrorists there. There weren't any anti-US threats in Iraq before we showed up, that's for sure.

BTW - nice term "savages," really helps to dehumanize the enemy, I'm sure they do they same thing.

 

[Merlin1047]

Oh crap! An immigrant from the slate / yahoo boards.

There goes the neighborhood.

Great name, by the way - a combination of an insect and a blowhard - looks like it fits.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Oh, poor baby doesn't want to think of the men hanging off bridges

No, I just don't see what the enemy's transgressions have to do with our own. Why do I have to mention how evil the enemy is everytime I critisize the US for its abuse of Iraqi prisoners? Why? Is it because you often forget how evil the enemy is, and need constant reminding? Well, for you then, I have invented "Hate Week." See the thread entitled "Hate Week," you can read all about it. Unlike you, I don't. I know Saddam Hussein is evil, I know terrorism is evil, and I don't need to read the same article about 4 murdered Americans everyday of my life to know that.

Oh, poor baby doesn't want to think of the men hanging off bridges

No, I'm sorry, you're right, my every thought for the rest of my life will involve 9/11, otherwise, obviously, I am a traitor. I will eat thinking about 9/11, I will go to sleep thinkning about 9/11, I will work and play thinking about 9/11, and I will have sex thinking about 9/11. To do less would be unpatriotic.

We're at war, you--oh I can't say it cause I don't want to get booted off!!!!

Are they really that strict around here? Can't let us have any fun? I'm dying to know what immature comment you were thinking of.

We're at war, you--oh I can't say it cause I don't want to get booted off!!!!

You don't want to focus on what has been done to us!

No, I just happen to think there are other issues at hand. Like what we are doing to others. But you don't care about the sins in your own house, you only want to hear about other people's sins so you can feel better about yourself.

It's all about destroying it from the inside, by tearing Bush apart because he acted when 9/11 occurred, and in case you didn't know, if you're a Clinton lover, the 9/11 commission just found out that the little pervert could have nabbed bin Laden several times!

And how many times has GW nabbed bin laden? That's right, we're wasting all the money in Iraq that could be used to find Bin Laden. And FYI, I never voted for Clinton. I try to never vote Democratic if I can, but I'm starting to think this Nazi we have for a President is giving me little choice.

It's all about destroying it from the inside, by tearing Bush apart because he acted when 9/11 occurred, and in case you didn't know, if you're a Clinton lover, the 9/11 commission just found out that the little pervert could have nabbed bin Laden several times!

We're doing a bad job in Iraq because of you Liberals! You won't let our troops do anything!

Yeah, right, its the liberals fault, not the fault of the guys shooting and blowing up our troops. Sure. Whatever. And its not the fault of the guy that sent them there in the first place. You sound like Herman Goering.

They're comparable to a street cop--they can't protect themselves because they can't fire their weapons unless fired upon, which puts their lives a step below the Iraqi "insurgents."

And that is somehow my fault? I'm not the one pretending you can invade a country an expect to find a happy median between killing civilians and saving your own troops.

You heartless S.O.B., what about the pictures of people jumping out of the WTC?

Umm, what about them? What's your point? Yeah, they're horrible, we all know that. Would you mind not arguing with pure 100%emotion? You're starting to sound like a liberal.

They had families, but these people came over here and took them away from their loved ones. Doesn't that make you angry?

Yeah, it makes me angry, but not angry enough to go and kill a few thousand people who had nothing to do with it. What good does invading Iraq do for the victims of 9/11 when Iraq had squat to do with it?

? Or does that just make you saaaaad, we need to syyyyyympathize with the enemy, don't we?

Right, because I don't want to kill people that had nothing to do with 9/11, obviously, I sympathize with the enemy. WTF ever, you make no sense at all.


Stop arguing with emotion. You might be accused of being a liberal.

Which incidently, isn't a bad thing. If it weren't for liberals, you and the other 50% of the country who don't have penises wouldn't be allowed to vote or work as anything but a teacher, secretary, seamstress, or prostitute.