Zone1 A christian-atheist compromise?

[frigidweirdo]

Kind of like if you fervently believe if you pick up a rock at the side of the road and fervently believe you can take it to the store and buy groceries, afterwards you will no longer fervently believe a rock cannot buy you groceries--you will know it cannot.

There is a difference between believing and knowing. Another thing that comes with knowing, it more blessed to believe without seeing.

Yes, a difference between believing and knowing. What religion has down to a tee is to have answers to things that simply cannot be proven or disproven.

Imagine I tell you that God lives in the sky, like they used to do. You couldn't disprove it, you couldn't see God up there, but then you couldn't go up into space and find him there. It was a simple solution. Someone doesn't know where God is, but chooses a place where nobody could possibly find him. Until they went into space and didn't find him there. So they subtly pretend they never said that and move him somewhere else. Where is he now, exactly?

Give people a few thousand years, and they'll get very good at finding the places where people can't go.

 

[john54]

Are you aware the story of Santa can be traced back to the fourth century. On the other hand, God is timeless.

Grin. Should you ever have an experience of God you would laugh yourself silly over your "too close for comfort" statement. Or burst into tears. Hard to say.

Hm. Did you ever believe in Santa? I'm not sure you know just how much Santa means to people.

I expect you're having quite the experience. So you may ask, why do I not just come 'round to Christ, and give believing a chance, to experience it for myself? Well, if a heroin user told me I'll never know their experience without trying heroin for myself, I would still decline because I have learned through research the effects of heroin on the brain, its addictive qualities, and I have worked with people addicted to it and did not like what I saw. Incidentally, once, I smoked cigarettes laced with some amount of what was likely heroin, not knowing they had been laced, and the small taste I got greatly disturbed me.

Similarly, you may tell me truthfully that I'll never know your experience of being high on Christ without trying it myself. And so, having researched Christianity and the Bible's myriad factual inaccuracies, its addictive effects on the brain and mal-effects on psychological well being, and having spent time around many Christians and not liked what I saw as far as how they behaved while high on christ, and also having felt the little tummy flutter while reading the Bible and not liked what taste I got - as it reminds me of the feeling manipulative people give me when they ask me to trust them - given all that, I have to decline getting high on your God.

 

[Meriweather]

Imagine I tell you that God lives in the sky, like they used to do. You couldn't disprove it, you couldn't see God up there, but then you couldn't go up into space and find him there. It was a simple solution. Someone doesn't know where God is, but chooses a place where nobody could possibly find him. Until they went into space and didn't find him there. So they subtly pretend they never said that and move him somewhere else. Where is he now, exactly?

The Hebrew language has various words used for sky and heaven. They believed in seven levels of heaven, each veiled. One word describing heaven came from two words meaning water and fire. Speaking of going up in space...one would correctly state that earth is in the heavens, part of the heavens.

We also learn that God is everywhere, God is in our midst. Given that earth is in the heavens, not a hard concept to grasp. We do not need to leave Earth to find Him; He is here.

 

[Meriweather]

Hm. Did you ever believe in Santa? I'm not sure you know just how much Santa means to people.

Absolutely! I was in awe when Mom told me the reality of Santa. I was delighted. Children love to play, "Let's pretend." A toilet plunger can become a magic wand, a closet becomes an elevator, a cardboard box a spaceship. That grown-ups could all come together with a Let's Pretend game of their own was awesome, incredible. I was proud of them.

My uncle (the uncle who is my own age) didn't see it the same way. He saw it as my grandparents lying to him. He would never let his children believe in Santa.

 

[Meriweather]

I expect you're having quite the experience.

Having? You mean presently? What kind of experience do you imagine I am having?

 

[john54]

Having? You mean presently? What kind of experience do you imagine I am having?

You sound just like my sister justifying microdosing...

 

[john54]

Absolutely! I was in awe when Mom told me the reality of Santa. I was delighted. Children love to play, "Let's pretend." A toilet plunger can become a magic wand, a closet becomes an elevator, a cardboard box a spaceship. That grown-ups could all come together with a Let's Pretend game of their own was awesome, incredible. I was proud of them.

My uncle (the uncle who is my own age) didn't see it the same way. He saw it as my grandparents lying to him. He would never let his children believe in Santa.

Yes, I was also pretty impressed when I guessed it and my dad confirmed. I don't remember it as a sad moment. It was just reality, which wasnt that bad. You know, if you ever learn God isn't real, you may find it's not that bad either.

You may even experience a sense of awe, at how everything came about on its own.

 

[Meriweather]

So you may ask, why do I not just come 'round to Christ, and give believing a chance, to experience it for myself?

Why would I ask that? Faith/belief is based on reason. Your present reasoning doesn't take you anywhere close. In fact, it appears a place you have no wish to go, and it is your reasoning, not any lack of belief, that keeps you away.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Yes, I was also pretty impressed when I guessed it and my dad confirmed. I don't remember it as a sad moment. It was just reality, which wasnt that bad. You know, if you ever learn God isn't real, you may find it's not that bad either.

You may even experience a sense of awe, at how everything came about on its own.

The mysteries of the world are too daunting to tackle, God being a major mystery.

Until science can definitively explain the Universes creation, God will be relevant. We will kill ourselves off (or be the victim of a tragedy) long before the technology to travel to the end of the universe exists.

As such, even in my own arrogance when I was an agnostic/atheist, the prospect of a Creator was entertained in my mind and I did in fact pray as a child. Maybe our instincts are better when the wonderment of the world is self explored.

God exists. That is my conclusion as of today.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, if a heroin user told me I'll never know their experience without trying heroin for myself, I would still decline because I have learned through research the effects of heroin on the brain, its addictive qualities, and I have worked with people addicted to it and did not like what I saw. Incidentally, once, I smoked cigarettes laced with some amount of what was likely heroin, not knowing they had been laced, and the small taste I got greatly disturbed me.

Precisely. Reasoning.

 

[Meriweather]

Similarly, you may tell me truthfully that I'll never know your experience of being high on Christ without trying it myself.

"High on Christ?"

One is probably higher when horseback riding.

 

[Meriweather]

You sound just like my sister justifying microdosing...

I don't even know what that is, which is why I am interested in what you think I am having. Since you know and I don't, tell me.

 

[john54]

The mysteries of the world are too daunting to tackle, God being a major mystery.

Until science can definitively explain the Universes creation, God will be relevant. We will kill ourselves off (or be the victim of a tragedy) long before the technology to travel to the end of the universe exists.

As such, even in my own arrogance when I was an agnostic/atheist, the prospect of a Creator was entertained in my mind and I did in fact pray as a child. Maybe our instincts are better when the wonderment of the world is self explored.

God exists. That is my conclusion as of today.

Is the belief in god you've come to more just a feeling for you? Or is it something that can withstand having critical thought applied to it? Like, why no guiding hand evident anywhere in fossils, geology, DNA, within our planet or in the stars, in the very large or the very small, why is it mostly all math, and why is it that every time we thought something was God, like how Newton thought gravity was God holding the planets in orbit, it turns out to be just more math and logical cause-and-effect?

Or is this more a gut-feeling kind of thing? Where you don't feel the need to think too hard about it, maybe?

 

[john54]

I don't even know what that is, which is why I am interested in what you think I am having. Since you know and I don't, tell me.

I think you know, from the bottom of your being, that God is real, from what you've said. That it goes beyond just having faith and is something you know with absolute certainty to be true. Is that correct?

 

[Meriweather]

You know, if you ever learn God isn't real, you may find it's not that bad either.

Let me know when you learn your dad isn't real, and we'll see where that conversation takes us.

What convinced you God isn't real?

 

[john54]

Let me know when you learn your dad isn't real, and we'll see where that conversation takes us.

What convinced you God isn't real?

I made a good summary of that two posts up in reply to shockedcanadian

 

[Meriweather]

You may even experience a sense of awe, at how everything came about on its own.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions. I have already had that sense of awe...and then I went deeper. Ding explains it much better than I. Since you asked that question, I am guessing you have formed the conclusion I know nothing about evolution. I often teach evolution. Get up to speed.

 

[john54]

Let me know when you learn your dad isn't real, and we'll see where that conversation takes us.

What convinced you God isn't real?

You have a dad, though? Or had? I'd feel it a little disrespectful to my own dad to divide my love between two fathers.

 

[Meriweather]

I think you know, from the bottom of your being, that God is real, from what you've said. That it goes beyond just having faith and is something you know with absolute certainty to be true. Is that correct?

Correct.

 

[Meriweather]

I made a good summary of that two posts up in reply to shockedcanadian

Or is this more a gut-feeling kind of thing? Where you don't feel the need to think too hard about it, maybe?

It is an exploration not only of what is physical, but the energy and curiosity to go further. Remember when I said you were a settler, not a pioneer or an explorer? Some are satisfied with what the physical reveals. Some go beyond and explore what the spiritual realm reveals.