A-10 Worthless POS

[DrainBamage]

No, what I'm saying is the F-35 should have a 15-0 kill ratio based on the hype we are hearing.

Ahh so you've got some exact barometer on "hype" where you can quantify expectations of kill ratio and decide whether it meets approved metrics of hype.

The hype was that is was an outstanding fighter jet that would be second only to F-22 in air to air capabilities. 15-1 (or 10-1) against some of the best pilots in the world flying F-15s and F-16s qualifies that hype, something that rational people knew while you were babbling stupidly about how it wouldn't be a good interceptor because of whatever misplaced ideas on stealth compromise you got in your head.

Answer me this: does 15-1 help your argument that it won't be a good interceptor? Of course not.

Simulated combat is a good way to assess an aircraft and 15-1 is good, but for the exhorbitant cost i would expect better performance than that.

The ever moving goal posts of Westwall. From "not a good interceptor" to would have expected better than 15-1.

I guess we can all congratulate you on moving past the "it's all PR stunt propaganda" phase of looking like a fool on F-35. Good job!

 

[westwall]

No, what I'm saying is the F-35 should have a 15-0 kill ratio based on the hype we are hearing.

Ahh so you've got some exact barometer on "hype" where you can quantify expectations of kill ratio and decide whether it meets approved metrics of hype.

The hype was that is was an outstanding fighter jet that would be second only to F-22 in air to air capabilities. 15-1 (or 10-1) against some of the best pilots in the world flying F-15s and F-16s qualifies that hype, something that rational people knew while you were babbling stupidly about how it wouldn't be a good interceptor because of whatever misplaced ideas on stealth compromise you got in your head.

Answer me this: does 15-1 help your argument that it won't be a good interceptor? Of course not.

Simulated combat is a good way to assess an aircraft and 15-1 is good, but for the exhorbitant cost i would expect better performance than that.

The ever moving goal posts of Westwall. From "not a good interceptor" to would have expected better than 15-1.

I guess we can all congratulate you on moving past the "it's all PR stunt propaganda" phase of looking like a fool on F-35. Good job!

Poor drain, misrepresenting what I am saying doesn't help your cause in the slightest. The OP is the F-35 worth what it costs? Will it do the job they claim it will? The evidence says that in the CAS role it will not be up to snuff. The evidence shows that in the BVR field it will be very, very good. But once it is at knife range a Fourth Gen fighter will be able to match it. The evidence shows that the cost claims are wildly conservative when we KNOW that there are over 200 problems that still have to be addressed and thus the actual cost of the aircraft is completely, and totally unknown until those issues are rectified.

The claims from the first exercise we have found were not exactly truthful, thus the assertion that the press releases are biased certainly has merit. By all means post FACTUAL information about the aircraft. Just realize that we here are smart and can recognize propaganda for what it is quite easily.

And to continue the assault on the F-35 Norway is rightfully concerned that LM won't be able to adequately support the F-35 for quite a while as they work through the problems.

Norway Fears Lockheed Not Ready To Support F-35
Jan 27, 2017Lara Seligman | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Norway Fears Lockheed Not Ready To Support F-35

 

[DrainBamage]

Now about capability. Let's do the same loadout on a F-16 that a F-35 normally carries. You are going to need two drop tanks, 4 Air to Air, two bombs, all carried externally. While the F-35A is capable of Mach 1.6, the F-16 just dropped to Mach 1.3 or less. The F-35A maintains a 9+ G rating while your F-16 drops to 7.5. Those are the real numbers, not something extracted from an early test.

Might as well thrown in a targeting pod and an ECM pod if that F-16 wants to match F-35 in offensive capabilities.

When flying Red Flag, the F-15 doesn't come off so well. Remember, it's flying against the best of the best. It doesn't even make a 4 to 1 kill rate there. Yes, the real world, it's 105 to 0 but Red Flag is not real world. It's you against the best of the best. For the F-35A to get a 15 to 1 in air to air role, that's pretty damned impressive.

I think we both know Westwall is just going to keep moving the goal posts here. We have F-35 being flown by pilots still learning how to best use the aircraft against some of the best pilots USAF has, and now he would have expected better than 15-1.

F-35 is showing it is a dominant air to air fighter, and he hates it. He hates that he was wrong about it, he takes pride as coming off as the expert so this drives him crazy.

 

[DrainBamage]

Poor drain, misrepresenting what I am saying doesn't help your cause in the slightest. The OP is the F-35 worth what it costs? Will it do the job they claim it will? The evidence says that in the CAS role it will not be up to snuff.

CAS? What? My post was about you saying F-35 won't make a good interceptor because it's stealth was compromised.

The evidence shows that in the BVR field it will be very, very good. But once it is at knife range a Fourth Gen fighter will be able to match it.

Your first statement is correct. You second statement isn't, at least according to pilot accounts on F-35.

And of course you are the one who believes F-35 won't make a good interceptor.

The claims from the first exercise we have found were not exactly truthful.

There is no "we" here, you took a quote out of context and ignored other information that didn't suit you, claiming some big conspiracy uncovered.

 

[westwall]

Now about capability. Let's do the same loadout on a F-16 that a F-35 normally carries. You are going to need two drop tanks, 4 Air to Air, two bombs, all carried externally. While the F-35A is capable of Mach 1.6, the F-16 just dropped to Mach 1.3 or less. The F-35A maintains a 9+ G rating while your F-16 drops to 7.5. Those are the real numbers, not something extracted from an early test.

Might as well thrown in a targeting pod and an ECM pod if that F-16 wants to match F-35 in offensive capabilities.

When flying Red Flag, the F-15 doesn't come off so well. Remember, it's flying against the best of the best. It doesn't even make a 4 to 1 kill rate there. Yes, the real world, it's 105 to 0 but Red Flag is not real world. It's you against the best of the best. For the F-35A to get a 15 to 1 in air to air role, that's pretty damned impressive.

I think we both know Westwall is just going to keep moving the goal posts here. We have F-35 being flown by pilots still learning how to best use the aircraft against some of the best pilots USAF has, and now he would have expected better than 15-1.

F-35 is showing it is a dominant air to air fighter, and he hates it. He hates that he was wrong about it, he takes pride as coming off as the expert so this drives him crazy.

I don't "hate" anything. What I desire is an aircraft that will do the job at a cost that is commensurate with it's capabilities. The Marines have a F-35 detachment in Japan with a 70-80% serviceability rate. Red Flag had 13 JSF's and they only managed to get 110 sorties in over the two week period. That's .6 sorties per day. Not exactly a blistering pace.

 

[westwall]

Poor drain, misrepresenting what I am saying doesn't help your cause in the slightest. The OP is the F-35 worth what it costs? Will it do the job they claim it will? The evidence says that in the CAS role it will not be up to snuff.

CAS? What? My post was about you saying F-35 won't make a good interceptor because it's stealth was compromised.

The evidence shows that in the BVR field it will be very, very good. But once it is at knife range a Fourth Gen fighter will be able to match it.

Your first statement is correct. You second statement isn't, at least according to pilot accounts on F-35.

And of course you are the one who believes F-35 won't make a good interceptor.

The claims from the first exercise we have found were not exactly truthful.

There is no "we" here, you took a quote out of context and ignored other information that didn't suit you, claiming some big conspiracy uncovered.

It doesn't perform significantly better than the Eurofighter or the Rafael in the standard dogfight. Thus, with the greater number of fourth gen fighters out there the F-35 will be at a disadvantage in a large scale air battle. That's just simple numbers. The JSF should be a superlative interceptor. It's all the other jobs they claim it can do that I question. Get your facts straight.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Now about capability. Let's do the same loadout on a F-16 that a F-35 normally carries. You are going to need two drop tanks, 4 Air to Air, two bombs, all carried externally. While the F-35A is capable of Mach 1.6, the F-16 just dropped to Mach 1.3 or less. The F-35A maintains a 9+ G rating while your F-16 drops to 7.5. Those are the real numbers, not something extracted from an early test.

Might as well thrown in a targeting pod and an ECM pod if that F-16 wants to match F-35 in offensive capabilities.

When flying Red Flag, the F-15 doesn't come off so well. Remember, it's flying against the best of the best. It doesn't even make a 4 to 1 kill rate there. Yes, the real world, it's 105 to 0 but Red Flag is not real world. It's you against the best of the best. For the F-35A to get a 15 to 1 in air to air role, that's pretty damned impressive.

I think we both know Westwall is just going to keep moving the goal posts here. We have F-35 being flown by pilots still learning how to best use the aircraft against some of the best pilots USAF has, and now he would have expected better than 15-1.

F-35 is showing it is a dominant air to air fighter, and he hates it. He hates that he was wrong about it, he takes pride as coming off as the expert so this drives him crazy.

I don't "hate" anything. What I desire is an aircraft that will do the job at a cost that is commensurate with it's capabilities. The Marines have a F-35 detachment in Japan with a 70-80% serviceability rate. Red Flag had 13 JSF's and they only managed to get 110 sorties in over the two week period. That's .6 sorties per day. Not exactly a blistering pace.

70 to 8o% against a F-15 at 70. Sounds like an improvement. BTW, the AV8B has a much lower rate that that.

Here is the rest of that writeup you cherry picked

Since the exercise began, Hill’s Airmen have generated 110 sorties, including their first 10-jet F-35A sortie Jan. 30 and turned around and launched eight jets that afternoon. They have not lost a single sortie to a maintenance issue and have a 92 percent mission-capable rate, said 1st Lt. Devin Ferguson, assistant officer in charge of the 34th Aircraft Maintenance Unit. Legacy aircraft average 70 to 85 percent mission-capable.​

You are a lying piece of garbage. Stop lying or we will have the Moderator ban you.

 

[DrainBamage]

Red Flag had 13 JSF's and they only managed to get 110 sorties in over the two week period. That's .6 sorties per day. Not exactly a blistering pace.

Logic and math fail. Red Flag began Jan 23, and that article was posted February 2nd.

We don't how many days F-35s were scheduled to fly, how many sorties they are supposed to be in, basically you are attempting to draw a conclusion to criticize it's availability rate without enough information to make any judgement on it. Such is the dogmatic pursuit of someone who hates it's success and foolish it is making the critics look.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Now about capability. Let's do the same loadout on a F-16 that a F-35 normally carries. You are going to need two drop tanks, 4 Air to Air, two bombs, all carried externally. While the F-35A is capable of Mach 1.6, the F-16 just dropped to Mach 1.3 or less. The F-35A maintains a 9+ G rating while your F-16 drops to 7.5. Those are the real numbers, not something extracted from an early test.

Might as well thrown in a targeting pod and an ECM pod if that F-16 wants to match F-35 in offensive capabilities.

With that, the F-16 gets slower, turns slower, rolls slower and uses more gas. The safe G rate goes down even further.

When flying Red Flag, the F-15 doesn't come off so well. Remember, it's flying against the best of the best. It doesn't even make a 4 to 1 kill rate there. Yes, the real world, it's 105 to 0 but Red Flag is not real world. It's you against the best of the best. For the F-35A to get a 15 to 1 in air to air role, that's pretty damned impressive.

I think we both know Westwall is just going to keep moving the goal posts here. We have F-35 being flown by pilots still learning how to best use the aircraft against some of the best pilots USAF has, and now he would have expected better than 15-1.

F-35 is showing it is a dominant air to air fighter, and he hates it. He hates that he was wrong about it, he takes pride as coming off as the expert so this drives him crazy.

He's an idiot. And a Troll. He should have been warned by the Moderator long ago. Oh, that's right, our Moderator is a liar as well and only looks after his buddies.

 

[Manonthestreet]

How has the thread wondered this far......Why btw is AF looking at acquiring 300 light strike fighters.....It's called cost per hr of operation..........

 

[DrainBamage]

It doesn't perform significantly better than the Eurofighter or the Rafael in the standard dogfight. Thus, with the greater number of fourth gen fighters out there the F-35 will be at a disadvantage in a large scale air battle.

Ahh so now you're imagining some air war of furball dogfights everywhere in which the thousands of F-35s they are going to build are so outnumbered they are rendered useless. Right. The 15-1 record so far in Red Flag definitely supports the latest pile you're shoveling.

As I said before there are compromises that have been made to the basic airframe that penalize the performance of ALL models. It won't be a good interceptor because it's stealthiness has been compromised.

The JSF should be a superlative interceptor. It's all the other jobs they claim it can do that I question. Get your facts straight.

Speaking of keeping facts straight, sounds like you're already attempting to revise the history of your view points.

 

[Manonthestreet]

They won't build thousands Naval variant is under review .....At most you might get 2 squadrons per carrier simply because you have been forced into it new design alrdy on the board.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

How has the thread wondered this far......Why btw is AF looking at acquiring 300 light strike fighters.....It's called cost per hr of operation..........

Wow, we finally agree on something. It appears our "Moderator" needs to be fired.

And, no I don't agree that the A-10 is a piece of crap. When the situation is very tightly in the A-10s wheel house then it will be the best. AFterall, it's like a car that gets you to work every day, looks like crap, but it's paid for.

I don't know how many they are looking to aquire. But we both know it's coming right, wrong or indifferent.

(p.s. Seems like our POS Moderator is playing games with the speed that I can display)

 

[DrainBamage]

Red Flag gives F-35A its toughest test yet

“It’s a much more difficult adversary that we are fighting against here as a team than we would have fought against a year and a half ago, when I was here last,” Watkins said, referencing his previous Red Flag event, which he flew in as an F-16 pilot. “They have stepped up the number of red air that we’re fighting — the number of aggressor aircraft that are fighting against us — the amount of jamming and stuff that they’re providing against us, the skill level of the adversary that they are trying to replicate, as well as the surface-to-air missile threat.”

Fifth-generation aggressors will not be introduced during this Red Flag, but the sheer number of fourth-generation adversaries have posed a problem for participants. Up to about 24 adversaries can be in flight at the same time and can regenerate three or four times after being shot down, Watkins said. The F-35A’s kill ratio stands at 15 aggressors to 1 F-35 killed in action, but because Red Flag is a training exercise, the fighter shouldn’t have a perfect record, he contended.

“If we didn’t suffer a few loses, it wouldn’t be challenging enough, so we’d have to go back and redo it. So there are some threats out there that make it through because of their sheer numbers and the advanced threats that they’re shooting at us. So we have had one or two losses so far in our training,” he said. “That’s good for the pilots.”

Not good enough for some critics, apparently 15-1 in these conditions doesn't match the hype so this plane is a dud.

 

[DrainBamage]

They won't build thousands Naval variant is under review .....At most you might get 2 squadrons per carrier simply because you have been forced into it new design alrdy on the board.

Being under review doesn't mean they aren't going to buy it, and the Navy is only planning on buying 260 anyway.

 

[Manonthestreet]

I'll be more confident of f-35 advertised prowess when I hear from the opposition pilots and rundown of scenarios ........How will f-35 handle opposition at alt advantage......And such .....

 

[Manonthestreet]

They won't build thousands Naval variant is under review .....At most you might get 2 squadrons per carrier simply because you have been forced into it new design alrdy on the board.

Being under review doesn't mean they aren't going to buy it, and the Navy is only planning on buying 260 anyway.

Proof there won't be thousands......And that they aren't impressed

 

[DrainBamage]

Proof there won't be thousands......And that they aren't impressed

US Navy is conducting a review. That doesn't mean they are canceling anything. US Navy is only ordering 260 out of the 3,100 that are planned, so even if they canceled all of their order (which they won't) you've still got thousands.

How exactly does this provide proof there won't be thousands? Sure we don't know the future (see F-22) but I don't the word "proof" is being properly used here.

 

[Manonthestreet]

260 for Navy...... Like quantity for Marines .,.....Doubt AF will buy even a thousand ......

 

[DrainBamage]

Marines absolutely love it, they are the farthest onboard of any branch. I've seen no indication the Air Force wants to decrease their order.

I think the word "proof" is still lacking here.