80 Years ago today, Hiroshima...

[shockedcanadian]

Such a long time.ago but in histories terms, just a blip in time. Let's hope this situatioin is avoided in the future and half the world doesn't feel this evil choice is necessary in an effort to avoid even more deaths if conventional war had continued.

 

[JoeB131]

Such a long time.ago but in histories terms, just a blip in time. Let's hope this situatioin is avoided in the future and half the world doesn't feel this evil choice is necessary in an effort to avoid even more deaths if conventional war had continued.

Oh, look, it's our annual ritual of hand-wringing over Hiroshima.

Here's the thing. This is a great example of imposing modern sensibilities on historical people.

We think Hiroshima is bad now because we've spent the last 80 years living in terror of nuclear annihilation.

At the time, it was just another weapon to throw at Japan, and it probably wasn't a big factor in why the Japanese finally surrendered. (The fact that the USSR entered the war and was taking Manchuria from them so quickly they couldn't even evacuate their puppet government.)

 

[Hafar1014]

The Japanese deserved both bombs as their Bushido Code compelled them to suicide over defeat. The bombs gave them an excuse to save face. It also convinced Hirohito to see the wisdom of American capitalism and freedom and he worked to convert his people to the American way of life. He completely changed and portrayed himself humbly as one of his people traveling and speaking directly to them. It was an amazing transformation.
When you have an enemy like Iran the NAZIs or Imperial Japan you have to completely destroy them then rebuild them

 

[JoeB131]

The Japanese deserved both bombs as their Bushido Code compelled them to suicide over defeat. The bombs gave them an excuse to save face. It also convinced Hirohito to see the wisdom of American capitalism and freedom and he worked to convert his people to the American way of life. He completely changed and portrayed himself humbly as one of his people traveling and speaking directly to them. It was an amazing transformation.
When you have an enemy like Iran the NAZIs or Imperial Japan you have to completely destroy them then rebuild them

Wow, really?

The Japanese were seeking terms of surrender through the USSR, Sweden, and Switzerland. The only real sticking point was the status of the Monarchy.

The only thing that got Hirohito to see the "Wisdom" of "Freedom" (Japan was already very capitalistic) was that the Americans were occupying their country, and Communism was scary.

(The little rat bastard should have been hanged for war crimes alongside Tojo, but we found him useful when more Japanese took Shinto seriously.)

 

[JWBooth]

Murderous and absolutely unecessary.
Japan was completely defeated and blockaided. The US controlled the air and the seas. Capitulation was, at most, just a few weeks away. The nonsense that the US would lose hundreds of thousands of troops in an invasion was just that as no invasion was needed.

Dwight Eisenhower​

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

General Douglas MacArthur​

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

Admiral William D. Leahy​

(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

 

[Hafar1014]

Murderous and absolutely unecessary.
Japan was completely defeated and blockaided. The US controlled the air and the seas. Capitulation was, at most, just a few weeks away. The nonsense that the US would lose hundreds of thousands of troops in an invasion was just that as no invasion was needed.

Dwight Eisenhower​

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

General Douglas MacArthur​

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

Admiral William D. Leahy​

(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

Without the bombs we would have invaded Japan. The Bushido Code doesnt allow surrender but mandates suicide

 

[westwall]

Such a long time.ago but in histories terms, just a blip in time. Let's hope this situatioin is avoided in the future and half the world doesn't feel this evil choice is necessary in an effort to avoid even more deaths if conventional war had continued.

There was nothing evil about it.

 

[JWBooth]

Without the bombs we would have invaded Japan. The Bushido Code doesnt allow surrender but mandates suicide

More silly shit. This has been touted for seventy years by Truman apologists without any standing in reality.

 

[westwall]

Murderous and absolutely unecessary.
Japan was completely defeated and blockaided. The US controlled the air and the seas. Capitulation was, at most, just a few weeks away. The nonsense that the US would lose hundreds of thousands of troops in an invasion was just that as no invasion was needed.

Dwight Eisenhower​

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

General Douglas MacArthur​

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

Admiral William D. Leahy​

(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

The Japanese leaders were distributing bayonets to the civilians so they could rush the beaches to attack the invaders.

Millions would have been killed.

 

[JWBooth]

The Japanese leaders were distributing bayonets to the civilians so they could rush the beaches to attack the invaders.

Millions would have been killed.

Problem easily solved. Don't invade. Invasion was unecessary as a naval blockade ended fuel oil deliveries. They'd be eating leaves and walking everywhere in weeks.

I see you disagreed with direct quotes from the military leaders who actually won those wars.

 

[martybegan]

Problem easily solved. Don't invade. Invasion was unecessary as a naval blockade ended fuel oil deliveries. They'd be eating leaves and walking everywhere in weeks.

I see you disagreed with direct quotes from the military leaders who actually won those wars.

The Army still demanded 3 conditions the allies wouldn't accept, no occupation, Japan disarms itself, and they handle their own war crime trials.

 

[westwall]

Problem easily solved. Don't invade. Invasion was unecessary as a naval blockade ended fuel oil deliveries. They'd be eating leaves and walking everywhere in weeks.

I see you disagreed with direct quotes from the military leaders who actually won those wars.

Yes, I disagree with a lot of what they said. They aren't omnipotent. Many of their decisions were proven wrong later on.

Wars have to end. You can't let a militant country, like Japan was, to regrow it's strength.

How many years are you willing to maintain a blockade? At what cost to your own people?

 

[martybegan]

Wow, really?

The Japanese were seeking terms of surrender through the USSR, Sweden, and Switzerland. The only real sticking point was the status of the Monarchy.

The only thing that got Hirohito to see the "Wisdom" of "Freedom" (Japan was already very capitalistic) was that the Americans were occupying their country, and Communism was scary.

(The little rat bastard should have been hanged for war crimes alongside Tojo, but we found him useful when more Japanese took Shinto seriously.)

They were seeking terms that would be unacceptable to the US. No occupation, limited disarmament, and self prosecution of any war crimes.

The Army still believed if they did the one big fight on Kyushu and inflicted enough casualties, they would get a negotiation instead of a surrender and occupation.

 

[martybegan]

Yes, I disagree with a lot of what they said. They aren't omnipotent. Many of their decisions were proven wrong later on.

Wars have to end. You can't let a militant country, like Japan was, to regrow it's strength.

How many years are you willing to maintain a blockade? At what cost to your own people?

Also don't forget the war in Europe was over and war weariness was growing in the US.

 

[JWBooth]

How many years are you willing to maintain a blockade?

Weeks, they were spent.

Brigadier General Carter Clarke​

(The military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables - the MAGIC summaries - for Truman and his advisors)
"...when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs."

Quoted in Gar Alperovitz, The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 359.

 

[Moonglow]

All's fair in love and war...

c'est la guerre

 

[westwall]

Weeks, they were spent.

Brigadier General Carter Clarke​

(The military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables - the MAGIC summaries - for Truman and his advisors)
"...when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs."

Quoted in Gar Alperovitz, The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 359.

One person's opinion does not a fact make.

 

[JWBooth]

• One person's opinion does not a fact make.

  On this matter you seem quite willing to ignore facts presented by men much closer to the matter and better informed.

 

[JWBooth]

"If I had forseen Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I would have torn up my formula in 1905."
Albert Einstein, 1948

 

[JWBooth]

Admiral Chester Nimitz​

October 5, 1945, Admiral Nimitz stated “The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war.”