80 Years ago today, Hiroshima...

[westwall]

• 
  On this matter you seem quite willing to ignore facts presented by men much closer to the matter and better informed.

No, WE are much better informed. There have been decades of study on the subject.

 

[Eman623]

"If I had forseen Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I would have torn up my formula in 1905."
Albert Einstein, 1948

If he had, we might be speaking German today.

 

[JWBooth]

If he had, we might be speaking German today.

Another myth

 

[JWBooth]

No, WE are much better informed. There have been decades of study on the subject.

And the necessary for invasion myth has been debunked over and over.

 

[Eman623]

Another myth

I lack your omniscience regarding alternate timeliness

 

[JWBooth]

I lack your omniscience regarding alternate timeliness

And all those landing craft that they didn't have?

 

[westwall]

And the necessary for invasion myth has been debunked over and over.

No, it hasn't. There have been opinions posted, over and over. But they are just opinions.

 

[Eman623]

And all those landing craft that they didn't have?

You tell me. You're the one with all the answers.

 

[JWBooth]

No, it hasn't. There have been opinions posted, over and over. But they are just opinions.

Like the opinion that a million would die in the mythical, unecessary, invasion.

 

[Votto]

I say that the bomb was more humane.

At least they did not make the Japanese suffer indefinitely and take their manhood and dignity and will to live away.

 

[Eman623]

Like the opinion that a million would die in the mythical, unecessary, invasion.

If not invasion, what? Blockade?

that would just turn Japan into a bigger Gaza where everyone is poor and starving and the thugs running the government steal what little food there is.

 

[Eman623]

Such a long time.ago but in histories terms, just a blip in time. Let's hope this situatioin is avoided in the future and half the world doesn't feel this evil choice is necessary in an effort to avoid even more deaths if conventional war had continued.

The annual conversation is useful if it reminds people of the horrors of nuclear weapons. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

[martybegan]

The annual conversation is useful if it reminds people of the horrors of nuclear weapons. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

People forget the incendiary bombings of other Japanese cities killed far more people.

 

[Zincwarrior]

More silly shit. This has been touted for seventy years by Truman apologists without any standing in reality.

Leave off China, Indo China etc., just in Japan itself, more were dying monthly in bombing raids and pure starvation by a factor of five than both nuke strikes. Keep the war going for six months without invasion, and you are pushing close to a million civilian dead.

 

[martybegan]

Leave off China, Indo China etc., just in Japan itself, more were dying monthly in bombing raids and pure starvation by a factor of five than both nuke strikes. Keep the war going for six months without invasion, and you are pushing close to a million civilian dead.

Also remember they were still killing Chinese and Korean civilians in the areas the occupied, as well as killing allied POW's, either through work/neglect or outright murder if they though they would be freed.

 

[westwall]

Like the opinion that a million would die in the mythical, unecessary, invasion.

There's actually support for that. The Japanese actually WERE making pole bayonets for the civilians to tie to poles, to make spears.

Why would they do that? Couldn't mount the bayonet on a rifle. So why make them?

 

[Zincwarrior]

Also remember they were still killing Chinese and Korean civilians in the areas the occupied, as well as killing allied POW's, either through work/neglect or outright murder if they though they would be freed.

Exactly. They were burning through China like the Nazis did Eastern Europe, and they started in 1934.

 

[martybegan]

There's actually support for that. The Japanese actually WERE making pole bayonets for the civilians to tie to poles, to make spears.

Why would they do that? Couldn't mount the bayonet on a rifle. So why make them?

Their strategy wasn't to hold Kyushu, it was to lose it only after inflicting maximum casualties on the Allied forces both on shore and afloat, and then seeing if they could get terms based on the 4 conditions states by the Japanese Army.

This book is a GREAT source on the end of the war.

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire - Association for Asian Studies

 

[HeyNorm]

Without the bombs we would have invaded Japan. The Bushido Code doesnt allow surrender but mandates suicide

Plus they had a kill order that would have murdered all the American POWs. Well over 100,000

 

[westwall]

Their strategy wasn't to hold Kyushu, it was to lose it only after inflicting maximum casualties on the Allied forces both on shore and afloat, and then seeing if they could get terms based on the 4 conditions states by the Japanese Army.

This book is a GREAT source on the end of the war.

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire - Association for Asian Studies

Yes, the Japanese military leadership believed that they could launch mass attacks by the citizens and get under the American firepower. Close combat with women, children, and old men.

It would have been a bloodbath.

What people like booth ignore is even after the 1st bomb dropped and hirhito wanted to surrender, the hard liners refused, so there was a three day battle fought between them, and Hirohito supporters.