80 Years ago today, Hiroshima...

[martybegan]

Yes, the Japanese military leadership believed that they could launch mass attacks by the citizens and get under the American firepower. Close combat with women, children, and old men.

It would have been a bloodbath.

What people like booth ignore is even after the 1st bomb dropped and hirhito wanted to surrender, the hard liners refused, so there was a three day battle fought between them, and Hirohito supporters.

there was also the one thing forgotten by people now, back then they had to figure out exactly what had happened, and even then they weren't sure the Allies had any more of the bombs.

 

[JWBooth]

There's actually support for that. The Japanese actually WERE making pole bayonets for the civilians to tie to poles, to make spears.

Why would they do that? Couldn't mount the bayonet on a rifle. So why make them?

They were surrounded, what are they gonna use them for if ships stand off and keep supplies from coming in?

 

[Zincwarrior]

They were surrounded, what are they gonna use them for if ships stand off and keep supplies from coming in?

If the US stands off, as noted, a million would die by the end of the year from starvation and bombing in Japan alone.

Note: the US invasion plan called for more nukes ahead of the Allied advance. Think about that.

 

[westwall]

They were surrounded, what are they gonna use them for if ships stand off and keep supplies from coming in?

How long can you support a close blockade like that? How long are you going to force the USA to maintain a war footing? Forever?

 

[JWBooth]

How long can you support a close blockade like that? How long are you going to force the USA to maintain a war footing? Forever?

A month maybe two.

Admiral Chester Nimitz​

October 5, 1945, Admiral Nimitz stated “The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war.”

 

[westwall]

A month maybe two.

Admiral Chester Nimitz​

October 5, 1945, Admiral Nimitz stated “The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war.”

Yes, but on THEIR terms. Not OURS. Huuuuge difference.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Wow, really?

The Japanese were seeking terms of surrender through the USSR, Sweden, and Switzerland. The only real sticking point was the status of the Monarchy.

The only thing that got Hirohito to see the "Wisdom" of "Freedom" (Japan was already very capitalistic) was that the Americans were occupying their country, and Communism was scary.

(The little rat bastard should have been hanged for war crimes alongside Tojo, but we found him useful when more Japanese took Shinto seriously.)

WRONG

SOME and ONLY some of the powerful leaders of Japan were seeking an end to the war which would allow them to keep territorial gains which they still had control of. No one was seeking surrender and there were many sticking points beyond the emporer. In addition many did in fact want to keep fighting till the very last man woman or child.

 

[Soupnazi630]

A month maybe two.

Admiral Chester Nimitz​

October 5, 1945, Admiral Nimitz stated “The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war.”

No link go figure

they never sued for peace till after the bombs

 

[Zincwarrior]

No link go figure

they never sued for peace till after the bombs

At least the thread is not a bunch of wehraboos circle yanking about Tiger IIs...

It happened. The allies had to utterly kill their navy, starve them, wipe out their armies in Manchuria, the Philippines, Borneo, firebomb them for a year, NUKE THEM TWICE, and be on the edge of invasion WITH NUKES, before they surrendered. And lets remember, they were literally the moustache twirling bad guys rape murdering an entire continent.

 

[ThirdTerm]

The atomic bombings did end the war quickly just as Trump's nighttime strikes against Iranian nuclear sites. The end justifies the means in some cases. These famous images of Hiroshima further serve as a remainder of the extraordinary power of nuclear weapons, which will never be used again in the near future even against Ukraine.

 

[Cassandro]

Problem easily solved. Don't invade. Invasion was unecessary as a naval blockade ended fuel oil deliveries.

Would you apply that "logic" to Germany during WW2?

 

[JWBooth]

Would you apply that "logic" to Germany during WW2?

Germany isn't on an island.

 

[westwall]

Germany isn't on an island.

Doesn't matter. It was effectively blockaded as well.

 

[Cassandro]

"If I had forseen Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I would have torn up my formula in 1905."
Albert Einstein, 1948

So he says in 1948? He was all for incinerating Germany during WW2.

 

[Anathema]

Murderous and absolutely unecessary.
Japan was completely defeated and blockaided. The US controlled the air and the seas. Capitulation was, at most, just a few weeks away. The nonsense that the US would lose hundreds of thousands of troops in an invasion was just that as no invasion was needed.

Murderous and absolutely NECESSARY. Whether Japan was about to surrender in not was, is abd always will be irrelevant.

It was PUNISHMENT for starting the war, for the acts their soldiers had committed during the war, and for their unwillingness to capitulate once it was obvious there was no oath to victory for them.

 

[Mashmont]

Oh, look, it's our annual ritual of hand-wringing over Hiroshima.

Here's the thing. This is a great example of imposing modern sensibilities on historical people.

We think Hiroshima is bad now because we've spent the last 80 years living in terror of nuclear annihilation.

At the time, it was just another weapon to throw at Japan, and it probably wasn't a big factor in why the Japanese finally surrendered. (The fact that the USSR entered the war and was taking Manchuria from them so quickly they couldn't even evacuate their puppet government.)

Amazing how Truman skates all criticism from the left on this. Had it been a Republican president, the left would hold annual protest marches complete with skeleton costumes. Truman would be the devil incarnate, on par with Hitler.

 

[JWBooth]

Murderous and absolutely NECESSARY. Whether Japan was about to surrender in not was, is abd always will be irrelevant.

It was PUNISHMENT for starting the war, for the acts their soldiers had committed during the war, and for their unwillingness to capitulate once it was obvious there was no oath to victory for them.

So, a civilian population should be punished for the things it's government and military do. That's not a theory I hold to.
You wanna be punished for George Bush's torture regime?

 

[JWBooth]

Doesn't matter. It was effectively blockaded as well.

That is true, and wasn't able to inflict any more damage either. Beating the Russians to Berlin was the only motivation, and not in a good way.

 

[Anathema]

So, a civilian population should be punished for the things it's government and military do. That's not a theory I hold to.
You wanna be punished for George Bush's torture regime?

Yes. Any population which allows its Government to act in a way the population disagrees with deserves to be punished for what that Government does.

I agreed with President Bush’s torture regime, so I would gladly accept any consequences thereof.

 

[westwall]

That is true, and wasn't able to inflict any more damage either. Beating the Russians to Berlin was the only motivation, and not in a good way.

It would have saved German civilians, or do civilians not matter to you?

Dropping the bombs saved at least a million Japanese civilians.

Your way would have still killed them, just slowly through starvation.

Not a way I would like to go.