80 Years ago today, Hiroshima...

[Anathema]

"If I had forseen Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I would have torn up my formula in 1905."
Albert Einstein, 1948

He would have been better off making sure nobody other than the United Ststes ever got it.

 

[Hellbilly]

The Japanese deserved both bombs as their Bushido Code compelled them to suicide over defeat. The bombs gave them an excuse to save face. It also convinced Hirohito to see the wisdom of American capitalism and freedom and he worked to convert his people to the American way of life. He completely changed and portrayed himself humbly as one of his people traveling and speaking directly to them. It was an amazing transformation.
When you have an enemy like Iran the NAZIs or Imperial Japan you have to completely destroy them then rebuild them

Did the 38,000 children that died also deserve it?

 

[westwall]

Did the 38,000 children that died also deserve it?

No. But they were doomed anyway.

 

[Eman623]

Did the 38,000 children that died also deserve it?

Would it have been more merciful for them to starve to death in a 2 year long blockade of the Japanese Islands?

 

[westwall]

Would it have been more merciful for them to starve to death in a 2 year long blockade of the Japanese Islands?

They never consider that.

 

[JoeB131]

Murderous and absolutely unecessary.
Japan was completely defeated and blockaided. The US controlled the air and the seas. Capitulation was, at most, just a few weeks away. The nonsense that the US would lose hundreds of thousands of troops in an invasion was just that as no invasion was needed.

Dwight Eisenhower​

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

General Douglas MacArthur​

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

Admiral William D. Leahy​

(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

The problem with all these quotes is that they come from a time AFTER the war, in self-serving autobiographies.

MacArthur and Ike were political opponents of Truman, so their opposition, after public opinion had turned against the bomb after living under the threat of nuclear annihilation, is a bit self-serving.

Sure, Ike is going to say, "I was always against that thing" in 1963, when we just dodged annihilation in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

[Eman623]

I wonder if people in 1945 thought we'd somehow go 80 years and counting without another nuke being used. I doubt it.

Seems like it's inevitable sooner or later. There will always be crazies out there and forever is a long time.

 

[Hafar1014]

The Japanese deserved both bombs as their Bushido Code compelled them to suicide over defeat. The bombs gave them an excuse to save face. It also convinced Hirohito to see the wisdom of American capitalism and freedom and he worked to convert his people to the American way of life. He completely changed and portrayed himself humbly as one of his people traveling and speaking directly to them. It was an amazing transformation.
When you have an enemy like Iran the NAZIs or Imperial Japan you have to completely destroy them then rebuild them

Dont just

The Japanese deserved both bombs as their Bushido Code compelled them to suicide over defeat. The bombs gave them an excuse to save face. It also convinced Hirohito to see the wisdom of American capitalism and freedom and he worked to convert his people to the American way of life. He completely changed and portrayed himself humbly as one of his people traveling and speaking directly to them. It was an amazing transformation.
When you have an enemy like Iran the NAZIs or Imperial Japan you have to completely destroy them then rebuild them

Unkotar dont just disagree show some backbone and intelligence and explain why. Both bombs saved lives. Japan would have to have been invaded killing millions. The Japanese were torturing and killing prisoners by the thousands.

 

[Unkotare]

Without the bombs we would have invaded Japan. The Bushido Code doesnt allow surrender but mandates suicide

You've watched too many bad movies.

 

[Hafar1014]

You've watched too many bad movies.

Surrender accepted you cant post a thought.

 

[Hafar1014]

Surrender accepted you cant post a thought.

Still cant post a thought. So why even come here if you have nothing to offer

 

[HeyNorm]

Still cant post a thought. So why even come here if you have nothing to offer

You just watched too many bad movies?

Nanjing Massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Unkotare]

You just watched too many bad movies?

Nanjing Massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Could be.

 

[Zincwarrior]

It would have saved German civilians, or do civilians not matter to you?

Dropping the bombs saved at least a million Japanese civilians.

Your way would have still killed them, just slowly through starvation.

Not a way I would like to go.

Either way we are looking at a million+ Japanese dying, not to mention China, Myanmar, Korea, Indochina, etc.

 

[Zincwarrior]

You've watched too many bad movies.

What is your suggestion of what they should have done instead?

 

[Unkotare]

Some people watch a few movies from the 1950's-1960s and think they know all about Japanese history/culture. Samurai surrendered all the time. In fact, under certain circumstances it was a responsibility.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Such a long time.ago but in histories terms, just a blip in time. Let's hope this situatioin is avoided in the future and half the world doesn't feel this evil choice is necessary in an effort to avoid even more deaths if conventional war had continued.

You should look up Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese main islands. Conservative estimates predicted 250,000 US casualties with 5 to 10 million dead Japanese civilians. Nukes are a terrible weapon but the use in Japan ended the war and saved lives.

 

[HeyNorm]

Some people watch a few movies from the 1950's-1960s and think they know all about Japanese history/culture. Samurai surrendered all the time. In fact, under certain circumstances it was a responsibility.

And some us had Uncles that were German and some Japanese POW’s.

Guaranteed, the ones held by the Germans would not have traded places.

The Nazis were horrible to their captured POWs, but nothing compared to those held by Japan

 

[shockedcanadian]

And some us had Uncles that were German and some Japanese POW’s.

Guaranteed, the ones held by the Germans would not have traded places.

The Nazis were horrible to their captured POWs, but nothing compared to those held by Japan

Yep. Many years ago there was a reunion of sorts for ALL military participants of WWII be they friend or foe.

The Canadians who survived met German, Italians, Russians etc. The only nation they refused to meet with were the Japanese soldiers. What they did to Canadian P.O.Ws was never forgiven and it was well documented. I saw a documentary in high school as well, it was horrible.

I'm sure the Germans and Russians didn't get along too well either due to the way both nations treated their P.O.Ws, but the Japanese were notoriously ruthless and sadistic to all POWs.

This memory of Japans atrocities of WWII remains most prominent with the Chinese though after what they did in Nanjing and other cities. They threw babies in the air and landed them on their swords. The most evil of savagery be it rape, burning people alive etc. They had competitions among each other to count who could kill the most citizens in a period of time etc.

There is evil in war and then there is sadistic actions against citizens etc.

As much as we have Japan as an ally today, they are most afraid of China rising because of this history. The Chinese still remember the Opium War against the Brits so you can imagine how much hatred they have for the Japanese.

Ironically, it was primarily the Americans who helped China in WWII and of course, they are the nation that handled Japan.

 

[JoeB131]

You should look up Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese main islands. Conservative estimates predicted 250,000 US casualties with 5 to 10 million dead Japanese civilians. Nukes are a terrible weapon but the use in Japan ended the war and saved lives.

Yes, that's the narrative you've been taught. Several problems with it.

1) No one was estimating 250K US casualties at the time. These fanciful figures started getting bandied about in the 1950s, when America was rationalizing what it had done.

On 18 June 1945, President Truman held a Japanese strategy meeting at the White House. At this meeting he was briefed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff on the elements of Operation Downfall. Truman's primary concern was on the number of casualties and whether an invasion of the home islands was necessary. General Marshall gave Truman an estimate of approximately 40,000 U.S. casualties for Operation Olympic.(9) After hours of discussion, Truman approved further planning for Olympic, with an execution date of 1 November 1945. Operation Coronet, if needed, would be conducted in March 1946.

UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER

2) The Allies already knew the Japanese were desperate to get peace terms. Japan had been seeking peace as early as January through the USSR (which was neutral towards Japan at the time), Sweden, and Switzerland.

3) The Nukes had very little effect on the decision of the Japanese to ultimately surrender. A much bigger factor was the entry of the USSR into the Pacific War (Originally scheduled for September but moved up to August). The Japanese were already fighting on several fronts. An entire new front in Manchuria was opened up, and the battle-hardened Red Army was sweeping up the Kwantung Army in Manchuko with relative ease.

4) Japan's ability to continue to fight at that point was nil. Most of their best army units were stranded in China or the Philippines. They had no planes left, few operational warships, little armor, etc. The units in the Home Islands were quickly assembled militias hardly of the same caliber as the US Army had faced in the Pacific.

Now, as I said earlier, a lot of our hand-wringing about whether or not using the bomb was necessary is more born out from 80 years of living in the shadow of nuclear annihilation. For people at the time, I suspect, it was just another weapon used in a war that had already been dragging on for six years (more if you count from the invasion of China in 1937) and had claimed 70 million lives. People were numb to it at that point.

No one cared about "Saving Japanese lives" at that point. They had spent the last year portraying the Japanese as sub-human monsters. (As opposed to how the propagadists treated Germany, where they were divided between "Good Germans" and "Bad Nazis".)