75% of African American boys in California fail to meet state reading levels.

[sakinago]

I'm not, but my girlfriend is, as well as most of her friends. And is still administering tests to the severely autistic that can't even speak. That's what I call top down, one size fits all. And not to mention her mom is on the forefront of common core, and before that was a superintendent of 2 different districts.

And no I'm not suggesting the strawman you claim I am suggesting, at all. You pulled that one out of your ass all on your own. And adds credence to my OP if you're a teacher and you think that's an effective technique to use, our students aren't learning how to learn, but what to learn. If you're using such obvious logical fallacies, then why the hell are we trusting you with teaching our kids?

My problem (if I must state it again) is with A. The top down method coming from the government. All kids need one unified method of teaching based on X, Y, and Z standards. B. Is what our secondary education facilities are teaching our teachers...which is pretty much the same thing in A, along with the state is a better vessel of education over parents.

So, what do you propose we do? Have 98,000+ different standards for each public school in the country?

As far as math standards go, years ago we used the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) Standards. Then I taught using the Florida State Sunshine Standards (SSS). There was almost no difference. Now, I teach using Common Core. The NCTM basically abandoned their standards because the majority of the country was using Common Core and there was basically no difference.

I am sorry, but you are proposing abandoning a system that works!

Yes and here's why.

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many are Smarter than the Few | DiploFoundation

Would you want a few treatment options for a disease you have, or 98,000? Yes I want 98,000 different ways of trying to solve the problem vs a few ways dictated by the few for the many. At best that's service of the majority over the individual. Someone over in Mass, finds a good solution in education, someone else in MD, adopts that. Someone in TX improves upon in, then someone TN combines it with something else, and then someone in NV finds an even better way. So in and so forth. Then maybe something works better with inner city kids than rural kids, or something works better with males, or better with special needs.

Common core is absolutely the tail wagging the dog. The standards "wagging" the curriculum. By the few, to the many.

And we did have a system that worked, for a long time, we were top 3 in the world before the formation of the DOE. In the 1800s our kids were practically giving dissertations, and reciting the constitution in its entirety. Read a letter from 80 years ago from a high schooler, their vocabulary blow pretty much every on USMB out of the water.

You have that exactly backwards. You don't have 98,000 different ways to get it right. You have 97,999 ways to do it wrong.

Standards are what they need to learn. If you had any concept of what a standard is, you would understand that.

Do you agree that all students should be able to calculate compound interest? THAT is a standard. How you teach someone to do that is curriculum. At my past two schools, the teachers of the subject area were responsible for designing a curriculum in order for students to achieve the standard. It did not come from the district, state, or the federal government. I helped write it! That is where the rubber meets the road.

As for your other old wive's tales, I will leave that to your own ignorance and find out how well children performed in states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and various other states before the federal government forced them to educate ALL children. Hint: They were not.

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

No, you do not understand! The professional educators present in this thread have schooled you every time you get it wrong and you continue to deny your own ignorance.

There is no Common Core curriculum. It does not exist, and I don't care how many times you claim you know, it does not.

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So, what do you propose we do? Have 98,000+ different standards for each public school in the country?

As far as math standards go, years ago we used the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) Standards. Then I taught using the Florida State Sunshine Standards (SSS). There was almost no difference. Now, I teach using Common Core. The NCTM basically abandoned their standards because the majority of the country was using Common Core and there was basically no difference.

I am sorry, but you are proposing abandoning a system that works!

Yes and here's why.

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many are Smarter than the Few | DiploFoundation

Would you want a few treatment options for a disease you have, or 98,000? Yes I want 98,000 different ways of trying to solve the problem vs a few ways dictated by the few for the many. At best that's service of the majority over the individual. Someone over in Mass, finds a good solution in education, someone else in MD, adopts that. Someone in TX improves upon in, then someone TN combines it with something else, and then someone in NV finds an even better way. So in and so forth. Then maybe something works better with inner city kids than rural kids, or something works better with males, or better with special needs.

Common core is absolutely the tail wagging the dog. The standards "wagging" the curriculum. By the few, to the many.

And we did have a system that worked, for a long time, we were top 3 in the world before the formation of the DOE. In the 1800s our kids were practically giving dissertations, and reciting the constitution in its entirety. Read a letter from 80 years ago from a high schooler, their vocabulary blow pretty much every on USMB out of the water.

You have that exactly backwards. You don't have 98,000 different ways to get it right. You have 97,999 ways to do it wrong.

Standards are what they need to learn. If you had any concept of what a standard is, you would understand that.

Do you agree that all students should be able to calculate compound interest? THAT is a standard. How you teach someone to do that is curriculum. At my past two schools, the teachers of the subject area were responsible for designing a curriculum in order for students to achieve the standard. It did not come from the district, state, or the federal government. I helped write it! That is where the rubber meets the road.

As for your other old wive's tales, I will leave that to your own ignorance and find out how well children performed in states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and various other states before the federal government forced them to educate ALL children. Hint: They were not.

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

No, you do not understand! The professional educators present in this thread have schooled you every time you get it wrong and you continue to deny your own ignorance.

There is no Common Core curriculum. It does not exist, and I don't care how many times you claim you know, it does not.

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

 

[sakinago]

Yes and here's why.

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many are Smarter than the Few | DiploFoundation

Would you want a few treatment options for a disease you have, or 98,000? Yes I want 98,000 different ways of trying to solve the problem vs a few ways dictated by the few for the many. At best that's service of the majority over the individual. Someone over in Mass, finds a good solution in education, someone else in MD, adopts that. Someone in TX improves upon in, then someone TN combines it with something else, and then someone in NV finds an even better way. So in and so forth. Then maybe something works better with inner city kids than rural kids, or something works better with males, or better with special needs.

Common core is absolutely the tail wagging the dog. The standards "wagging" the curriculum. By the few, to the many.

And we did have a system that worked, for a long time, we were top 3 in the world before the formation of the DOE. In the 1800s our kids were practically giving dissertations, and reciting the constitution in its entirety. Read a letter from 80 years ago from a high schooler, their vocabulary blow pretty much every on USMB out of the water.

You have that exactly backwards. You don't have 98,000 different ways to get it right. You have 97,999 ways to do it wrong.

Standards are what they need to learn. If you had any concept of what a standard is, you would understand that.

Do you agree that all students should be able to calculate compound interest? THAT is a standard. How you teach someone to do that is curriculum. At my past two schools, the teachers of the subject area were responsible for designing a curriculum in order for students to achieve the standard. It did not come from the district, state, or the federal government. I helped write it! That is where the rubber meets the road.

As for your other old wive's tales, I will leave that to your own ignorance and find out how well children performed in states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and various other states before the federal government forced them to educate ALL children. Hint: They were not.

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

No, you do not understand! The professional educators present in this thread have schooled you every time you get it wrong and you continue to deny your own ignorance.

There is no Common Core curriculum. It does not exist, and I don't care how many times you claim you know, it does not.

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

 

[mgh80]

Has there been a shift in education? Yes. Is it based on what you're saying? No. I'm in the classroom every single school day, so unless you also are, I'm going to assume I'm more versed on the issues at hand than you are.

Common Core is WHAT skills students are supposed to learn...a curriculum is HOW they learn them, big difference. Also the main test that my students have to pass is their writing test for the state...so I have to teach them reading/writing skills...are you suggesting I shouldn't be teaching them that?

I'm not, but my girlfriend is, as well as most of her friends. And is still administering tests to the severely autistic that can't even speak. That's what I call top down, one size fits all. And not to mention her mom is on the forefront of common core, and before that was a superintendent of 2 different districts.

And no I'm not suggesting the strawman you claim I am suggesting, at all. You pulled that one out of your ass all on your own. And adds credence to my OP if you're a teacher and you think that's an effective technique to use, our students aren't learning how to learn, but what to learn. If you're using such obvious logical fallacies, then why the hell are we trusting you with teaching our kids?

My problem (if I must state it again) is with A. The top down method coming from the government. All kids need one unified method of teaching based on X, Y, and Z standards. B. Is what our secondary education facilities are teaching our teachers...which is pretty much the same thing in A, along with the state is a better vessel of education over parents.

So, what do you propose we do? Have 98,000+ different standards for each public school in the country?

As far as math standards go, years ago we used the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) Standards. Then I taught using the Florida State Sunshine Standards (SSS). There was almost no difference. Now, I teach using Common Core. The NCTM basically abandoned their standards because the majority of the country was using Common Core and there was basically no difference.

I am sorry, but you are proposing abandoning a system that works!

Yes and here's why.

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many are Smarter than the Few | DiploFoundation

Would you want a few treatment options for a disease you have, or 98,000? Yes I want 98,000 different ways of trying to solve the problem vs a few ways dictated by the few for the many. At best that's service of the majority over the individual. Someone over in Mass, finds a good solution in education, someone else in MD, adopts that. Someone in TX improves upon in, then someone TN combines it with something else, and then someone in NV finds an even better way. So in and so forth. Then maybe something works better with inner city kids than rural kids, or something works better with males, or better with special needs.

Common core is absolutely the tail wagging the dog. The standards "wagging" the curriculum. By the few, to the many.

And we did have a system that worked, for a long time, we were top 3 in the world before the formation of the DOE. In the 1800s our kids were practically giving dissertations, and reciting the constitution in its entirety. Read a letter from 80 years ago from a high schooler, their vocabulary blow pretty much every on USMB out of the water.

You have that exactly backwards. You don't have 98,000 different ways to get it right. You have 97,999 ways to do it wrong.

Standards are what they need to learn. If you had any concept of what a standard is, you would understand that.

Do you agree that all students should be able to calculate compound interest? THAT is a standard. How you teach someone to do that is curriculum. At my past two schools, the teachers of the subject area were responsible for designing a curriculum in order for students to achieve the standard. It did not come from the district, state, or the federal government. I helped write it! That is where the rubber meets the road.

As for your other old wive's tales, I will leave that to your own ignorance and find out how well children performed in states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and various other states before the federal government forced them to educate ALL children. Hint: They were not.

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

Here's a link tot he Common Core website, cite 3 standards that you would do away with for either 9-10 ELA, or 11-12 ELA (I'm not familiar with other grades).

English Language Arts Standards | Common Core State Standards Initiative

Has there been a shift in education? Yes. Is it based on what you're saying? No. I'm in the classroom every single school day, so unless you also are, I'm going to assume I'm more versed on the issues at hand than you are.

Common Core is WHAT skills students are supposed to learn...a curriculum is HOW they learn them, big difference. Also the main test that my students have to pass is their writing test for the state...so I have to teach them reading/writing skills...are you suggesting I shouldn't be teaching them that?

I'm not, but my girlfriend is, as well as most of her friends. And is still administering tests to the severely autistic that can't even speak. That's what I call top down, one size fits all. And not to mention her mom is on the forefront of common core, and before that was a superintendent of 2 different districts.

And no I'm not suggesting the strawman you claim I am suggesting, at all. You pulled that one out of your ass all on your own. And adds credence to my OP if you're a teacher and you think that's an effective technique to use, our students aren't learning how to learn, but what to learn. If you're using such obvious logical fallacies, then why the hell are we trusting you with teaching our kids?

My problem (if I must state it again) is with A. The top down method coming from the government. All kids need one unified method of teaching based on X, Y, and Z standards. B. Is what our secondary education facilities are teaching our teachers...which is pretty much the same thing in A, along with the state is a better vessel of education over parents.

If your girlfriend is teaching severely autistic students, then surely you're aware that they'd have both a 504 and IEP. The very acronym of IEP is "Individualized Education Program"...meaning no she's not teaching a one size fits all with her students, hence the word "individualized".

As for the problem you're pointing out the "one size fits all"-that's true...but it's also when differentiating instruction comes in hand. I'm able to adjust my assignments for different kids in order for them to reach what I want them to learn. For example, my students had to demonstrate to me what "internal monologue" is...I had a student who is very low in his writing skills and he told me he wasn't sure what it meant...so I had to change up the way he learned the material...I drew an image of a character thinking inside of a thought bubble, and it just "clicked" with him. That student learned the same exact thing as all of my other students, but in a different way and that's ok.

PS: A good friend of mine plays in the MLB...does that make me an expert on the MLB or baseball? No. My wife works at a mental health crisis facility...does that automatically mean I'm an expert on mental health? No. Your girlfriend is a teacher, does that mean you're an expert on education? No.

Seriously your posts in this thread demonstrate that you're unaware of 504's, IEP's, the differences between a set of standards and a curriculum, hell you didn't even know what a set of standards was...so you'll have to excuse us if we don't take your opinions on education very seriously.

Just asked her...Thats pretty much what requires her to give these tests. Since she would be "denying them equal education," otherwise. She does the IEPs, but if she doesn't do the tests (or something like music or art class) it's viewed as denying them education...despite the name of the program, yea that's still a one size fits all. Over half her students are not potty trained, 2 can some what talk, and the other 4....Forget my girlfriends ideas, or the parents on what their goals are...the state knows better.

And no never, having a friend in the MLB does not translate, since that's such a natural physical type talent. Not ruling you out of being a MLB manager, but player, no. 70% is physical genetics and talents, 20% is childhood practice/playing, and the other 10% drive and training.

What do you mean she "does the IEPS"?

She's required to give the tests to students with IEPs-that's true...BUT IEP's grant special accommodations to students-that's the whole purpose of them in the first place.

You don't know what an IEP is. You don't know what a set of standards is. You don't know what a curriculum is. Yet you're claiming to be an expert and are figuratively stepping into the ring with multiple educators? You honestly expect to have a chance? Let's be real here: you're ignorant about the issues at hand-and that's ok and understandable. I'm not sure what your job is, but let's say you're a mechanic...I wouldn't pretend to know all of the details of being a mechanic and I sure as hell wouldn't think I know more than a mechanic at working on cars.

RN. And I'm not claiming to be an "expert" in education. That certainly does not exclude me from pointing out, hey we got a big freaking problem here, WHICH WE DO.
U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
That's not a success story there. And I suppose your answer to this is stay the course?

And YOU are part of the problem if you THINK we need to only listen to "experts" in education, or in other words the few. Here's a crazy idea, how bout we take a look at the teachers who are successful, get some ideas from them, how bout we source ideas from the parents. How bout we stop relying on teachers, who have to work with 20-30 students at a time, to be the only ones involved in teaching, I don't care how good of a teacher you are, you're not capable of giving them the time and attention they need. And how bout we stop listening to the few who think they know what's best. And we should also stop prentending like teacher unions=equals helping our students, when in reality, they're only there for the teachers.

You don't see me coming to you with appeals to ignorance/authority, and industry jargon and abbrevia, and then saying, see you don't know what you're talking about. You should be teaching your students how to spot appeals to authority and ignorance, and certainly not be using them yourself. That's the difference of teaching how to learn not what. If you can't spot your own logical fallacies, how are you supposed to teach kids to not get duped by them? (I get it's not actually part of the curriculum...which is part of the problem.)

-I don't think it's a problem that only experts in education can solve...BUT I do think that somebody who has to ask other people what a set of standards are should not be included in the solution either.

-You don't come at me with ignorance about education because I am not (at least in the realm of high school English).

-Teacher unions are designed for teachers, not students. The better the unions are, the more qualified teachers you have, the more qualified teachers you have, the more learning you get. I am not suggesting that all unions are the same-they're not-and I do think that some unions go too far...however my district has a massive amount of positions that need to be filled and everybody scratches their head wondering why...maybe it's because the salary is $38K?

PS: I'm one of those teachers that you're talking about that people should listen to. My test scores always beat the state, district, and school average (usually by a full letter grade), my evaluations (done by the district and school) are consistently among the top 5% of teachers, and quite frankly I kick ass as a teacher. This isn't being cocky or bragging, it's just me being self aware of my results. Maybe you should take your own advice and listen-you might learn a thing or two.

 

[mgh80]

You have that exactly backwards. You don't have 98,000 different ways to get it right. You have 97,999 ways to do it wrong.

Standards are what they need to learn. If you had any concept of what a standard is, you would understand that.

Do you agree that all students should be able to calculate compound interest? THAT is a standard. How you teach someone to do that is curriculum. At my past two schools, the teachers of the subject area were responsible for designing a curriculum in order for students to achieve the standard. It did not come from the district, state, or the federal government. I helped write it! That is where the rubber meets the road.

As for your other old wive's tales, I will leave that to your own ignorance and find out how well children performed in states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and various other states before the federal government forced them to educate ALL children. Hint: They were not.

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

No, you do not understand! The professional educators present in this thread have schooled you every time you get it wrong and you continue to deny your own ignorance.

There is no Common Core curriculum. It does not exist, and I don't care how many times you claim you know, it does not.

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

 

[sakinago]

I'm not, but my girlfriend is, as well as most of her friends. And is still administering tests to the severely autistic that can't even speak. That's what I call top down, one size fits all. And not to mention her mom is on the forefront of common core, and before that was a superintendent of 2 different districts.

And no I'm not suggesting the strawman you claim I am suggesting, at all. You pulled that one out of your ass all on your own. And adds credence to my OP if you're a teacher and you think that's an effective technique to use, our students aren't learning how to learn, but what to learn. If you're using such obvious logical fallacies, then why the hell are we trusting you with teaching our kids?

My problem (if I must state it again) is with A. The top down method coming from the government. All kids need one unified method of teaching based on X, Y, and Z standards. B. Is what our secondary education facilities are teaching our teachers...which is pretty much the same thing in A, along with the state is a better vessel of education over parents.

So, what do you propose we do? Have 98,000+ different standards for each public school in the country?

As far as math standards go, years ago we used the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM) Standards. Then I taught using the Florida State Sunshine Standards (SSS). There was almost no difference. Now, I teach using Common Core. The NCTM basically abandoned their standards because the majority of the country was using Common Core and there was basically no difference.

I am sorry, but you are proposing abandoning a system that works!

Yes and here's why.

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many are Smarter than the Few | DiploFoundation

Would you want a few treatment options for a disease you have, or 98,000? Yes I want 98,000 different ways of trying to solve the problem vs a few ways dictated by the few for the many. At best that's service of the majority over the individual. Someone over in Mass, finds a good solution in education, someone else in MD, adopts that. Someone in TX improves upon in, then someone TN combines it with something else, and then someone in NV finds an even better way. So in and so forth. Then maybe something works better with inner city kids than rural kids, or something works better with males, or better with special needs.

Common core is absolutely the tail wagging the dog. The standards "wagging" the curriculum. By the few, to the many.

And we did have a system that worked, for a long time, we were top 3 in the world before the formation of the DOE. In the 1800s our kids were practically giving dissertations, and reciting the constitution in its entirety. Read a letter from 80 years ago from a high schooler, their vocabulary blow pretty much every on USMB out of the water.

You have that exactly backwards. You don't have 98,000 different ways to get it right. You have 97,999 ways to do it wrong.

Standards are what they need to learn. If you had any concept of what a standard is, you would understand that.

Do you agree that all students should be able to calculate compound interest? THAT is a standard. How you teach someone to do that is curriculum. At my past two schools, the teachers of the subject area were responsible for designing a curriculum in order for students to achieve the standard. It did not come from the district, state, or the federal government. I helped write it! That is where the rubber meets the road.

As for your other old wive's tales, I will leave that to your own ignorance and find out how well children performed in states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and various other states before the federal government forced them to educate ALL children. Hint: They were not.

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

Here's a link tot he Common Core website, cite 3 standards that you would do away with for either 9-10 ELA, or 11-12 ELA (I'm not familiar with other grades).

English Language Arts Standards | Common Core State Standards Initiative

I'm not, but my girlfriend is, as well as most of her friends. And is still administering tests to the severely autistic that can't even speak. That's what I call top down, one size fits all. And not to mention her mom is on the forefront of common core, and before that was a superintendent of 2 different districts.

And no I'm not suggesting the strawman you claim I am suggesting, at all. You pulled that one out of your ass all on your own. And adds credence to my OP if you're a teacher and you think that's an effective technique to use, our students aren't learning how to learn, but what to learn. If you're using such obvious logical fallacies, then why the hell are we trusting you with teaching our kids?

My problem (if I must state it again) is with A. The top down method coming from the government. All kids need one unified method of teaching based on X, Y, and Z standards. B. Is what our secondary education facilities are teaching our teachers...which is pretty much the same thing in A, along with the state is a better vessel of education over parents.

If your girlfriend is teaching severely autistic students, then surely you're aware that they'd have both a 504 and IEP. The very acronym of IEP is "Individualized Education Program"...meaning no she's not teaching a one size fits all with her students, hence the word "individualized".

As for the problem you're pointing out the "one size fits all"-that's true...but it's also when differentiating instruction comes in hand. I'm able to adjust my assignments for different kids in order for them to reach what I want them to learn. For example, my students had to demonstrate to me what "internal monologue" is...I had a student who is very low in his writing skills and he told me he wasn't sure what it meant...so I had to change up the way he learned the material...I drew an image of a character thinking inside of a thought bubble, and it just "clicked" with him. That student learned the same exact thing as all of my other students, but in a different way and that's ok.

PS: A good friend of mine plays in the MLB...does that make me an expert on the MLB or baseball? No. My wife works at a mental health crisis facility...does that automatically mean I'm an expert on mental health? No. Your girlfriend is a teacher, does that mean you're an expert on education? No.

Seriously your posts in this thread demonstrate that you're unaware of 504's, IEP's, the differences between a set of standards and a curriculum, hell you didn't even know what a set of standards was...so you'll have to excuse us if we don't take your opinions on education very seriously.

Just asked her...Thats pretty much what requires her to give these tests. Since she would be "denying them equal education," otherwise. She does the IEPs, but if she doesn't do the tests (or something like music or art class) it's viewed as denying them education...despite the name of the program, yea that's still a one size fits all. Over half her students are not potty trained, 2 can some what talk, and the other 4....Forget my girlfriends ideas, or the parents on what their goals are...the state knows better.

And no never, having a friend in the MLB does not translate, since that's such a natural physical type talent. Not ruling you out of being a MLB manager, but player, no. 70% is physical genetics and talents, 20% is childhood practice/playing, and the other 10% drive and training.

What do you mean she "does the IEPS"?

She's required to give the tests to students with IEPs-that's true...BUT IEP's grant special accommodations to students-that's the whole purpose of them in the first place.

You don't know what an IEP is. You don't know what a set of standards is. You don't know what a curriculum is. Yet you're claiming to be an expert and are figuratively stepping into the ring with multiple educators? You honestly expect to have a chance? Let's be real here: you're ignorant about the issues at hand-and that's ok and understandable. I'm not sure what your job is, but let's say you're a mechanic...I wouldn't pretend to know all of the details of being a mechanic and I sure as hell wouldn't think I know more than a mechanic at working on cars.

RN. And I'm not claiming to be an "expert" in education. That certainly does not exclude me from pointing out, hey we got a big freaking problem here, WHICH WE DO.
U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries
That's not a success story there. And I suppose your answer to this is stay the course?

And YOU are part of the problem if you THINK we need to only listen to "experts" in education, or in other words the few. Here's a crazy idea, how bout we take a look at the teachers who are successful, get some ideas from them, how bout we source ideas from the parents. How bout we stop relying on teachers, who have to work with 20-30 students at a time, to be the only ones involved in teaching, I don't care how good of a teacher you are, you're not capable of giving them the time and attention they need. And how bout we stop listening to the few who think they know what's best. And we should also stop prentending like teacher unions=equals helping our students, when in reality, they're only there for the teachers.

You don't see me coming to you with appeals to ignorance/authority, and industry jargon and abbrevia, and then saying, see you don't know what you're talking about. You should be teaching your students how to spot appeals to authority and ignorance, and certainly not be using them yourself. That's the difference of teaching how to learn not what. If you can't spot your own logical fallacies, how are you supposed to teach kids to not get duped by them? (I get it's not actually part of the curriculum...which is part of the problem.)

-I don't think it's a problem that only experts in education can solve...BUT I do think that somebody who has to ask other people what a set of standards are should not be included in the solution either.

-You don't come at me with ignorance about education because I am not (at least in the realm of high school English).

-Teacher unions are designed for teachers, not students. The better the unions are, the more qualified teachers you have, the more qualified teachers you have, the more learning you get. I am not suggesting that all unions are the same-they're not-and I do think that some unions go too far...however my district has a massive amount of positions that need to be filled and everybody scratches their head wondering why...maybe it's because the salary is $38K?

PS: I'm one of those teachers that you're talking about that people should listen to. My test scores always beat the state, district, and school average (usually by a full letter grade), my evaluations (done by the district and school) are consistently among the top 5% of teachers, and quite frankly I kick ass as a teacher. This isn't being cocky or bragging, it's just me being self aware of my results. Maybe you should take your own advice and listen-you might learn a thing or two.

I'm not asking because I do not know what standards are. Nor was I even asking what are standards. I've been asking (already knowing the answer) over and over and over, how does one evaluate weather or not standards are met? So either y'all have been intentionally dodging this question, or are one demential thinkers. Standards do not exist inside a vacuum, if they did, they would be pointless.

Let's say I got into the head of a nursing school/department, and I said hey, I feel like instruction was lacking in this area, we'll say IM injections. So I then I add standards that I want all students to properly recite the procedure for an IM injection...I would then have to test the students to see if they are able to recite the procedure, if I didn't, what was the point of making those standards if I wasn't able to evaluate whether or not they were met. Now if most of the students couldn't, I would then go to the instructors and say "hey, I thought we set up these standards, why aren't the students meeting them?" And if the instructors tell me, "well, they were just standards, has nothing to do with our curriculum"...how well do you think that would go over? The next part of the conversation would go something like this, make sure these students meet these standards or you're going to be replaced. And if that instructor wants to keep their job, they're going to change their curriculum to make sure the students pass that test. Do ya finally see what I'm getting at?

 

[sakinago]

...Really... 97999 ways to get it wrong, thanks for confirming the exact faulty way of thinking I've been describing. Only what way to do it right, and one size fits all.

And yes I know what standards are, and common core standards are the tail that's wagging the dog that is curriculum. And those standards are all coming from one place. And they are most certainly driving the curriculum.

It's not an old wives tale that we were top 3 in education for a long time. These aren't wives tells that I'm telling you, these are facts.

No, you do not understand! The professional educators present in this thread have schooled you every time you get it wrong and you continue to deny your own ignorance.

There is no Common Core curriculum. It does not exist, and I don't care how many times you claim you know, it does not.

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

 

[mgh80]

No, you do not understand! The professional educators present in this thread have schooled you every time you get it wrong and you continue to deny your own ignorance.

There is no Common Core curriculum. It does not exist, and I don't care how many times you claim you know, it does not.

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

 

[sakinago]

I'm not saying there is common core curriculum, I'm saying he "standards" drive the curriculum. How do evauluate that standards have been meet? You test. And with common core you test often. And when standards become the holy grail you start teaching to the test, and gearing your curriculum to those standards. Stop with this damn strawman, I don't know how many other ways I can put this to you.

And if our educators are such geniuses at figuring out what's best for kids, then why are homeschoolers blowing them out of the water, and preforming better in college, many with parents who don't have education degrees? And if common core is the answer, then why is it that 75% of black male are not able to read at grade level?

HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

 

[mgh80]

This is a prime example of your ignorance. Common Core does not require any testing!

Common Core is standards. You have a whole mixed up ball of stupid on this topic.

Your deflection to dubious homeschool statistics is another pathetic attempt to deflect from your own ignorance.

I think you need to educate yourself on this topic, because it appears you might have a learning disability in this area, and I am apparently not qualified to teach this subject.

BTW, Common Core was removed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama back before the last election.

The Every Student Succeeds Act: An ESSA Overview

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

As I have stated several times here the curriculum is the method in which the standards are taught...so obviously the standards aren't in a vacuum. If the standards are the "what" and the curriculum is the "how", the curriculum interacts with the with standards, but the standards don't interact with the curriculum. It's why different districts have different curriculums, even though they abide by the same standards.

Not to be a dick, but I (and others) have made this painfully clear. If you can't comprehend what you're reading-I can't help you.

PS: You didn't specifically cite me claiming that the standards are in a vacuum, because I never made such claim.

edit:

For example here is a standard that I teach:

CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.RL.11-12.2
Determine two or more themes or central ideas of a text and analyze their development over the course of the text, including how they interact and build on one another to produce a complex account; provide an objective summary of the text.

District A might use Othello as their source material, and District B might use Macbeth. District A's curriculum could be total crap and their students might perform poorly, whereas District B's curriculum could be awesome and their students perform very well. The standards didn't dictate the outcome-the curriculum in place that's adopted by the district did (assuming all other things like student population, student to teacher ratio, resources, quality of teachers, etc. are equal).

 

[westwall]

Common Core requires one to think, which is why the parents hate it - they don't know how to do their kids' homework.

Wrong. Common core is antithetical to thinking. It replaces tried and tested methods of teaching, that we know actually work, with an untested experiment.

One that has destroyed the ability of kids to learn.

 

[sakinago]

So how do they then evauluate wether or not the "standards" are met? Do they guesstimate?

And it was removed in name only, ESSA is effectively the same thing as common core. Just a way for GOP to say see we got rid of common core, without actually doing a thing. Tell me, what's actually different with essa?

And no that's not at all a deflection, you're claiming that this system works. And that if you know nothing about education you shouldn't speak on it. Well neither do most parents homeschooling their kids, and they're blowing public school out of the water, and high profile universities are going for the homeschoolers. What they're doing is working, what public schools are doing clearly isn't.This has everything to do with the subject at hand. You're actually the one deflecting, calling this a deflection. At least give a response to it.

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

^^^ this is what I'm talking about MGH. Standards drive curriculum. Curriculums may vary, but the "how" from district to district is going to be very similar. Is how macbeth is taught vs how othelo is taught going to be that different if kids still have to meet certain standards on a test, on say criticical reading. If your kids have to reach a certain standard of "critical reading" then you are going to teach them to meet those standards, on what those standards are looking for, their benchmarks, doesn't matter much whether it's othelo or Macbeth, you are going to be teaching to that test.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

^^^ this is what I'm talking about MGH. Standards drive curriculum. Curriculums may vary, but the "how" from district to district is going to be very similar. Is how macbeth is taught vs how othelo is taught going to be that different if kids still have to meet certain standards on a test, on say criticical reading. If your kids have to reach a certain standard of "critical reading" then you are going to teach them to meet those standards, on what those standards are looking for, their benchmarks, doesn't matter much whether it's othelo or Macbeth, you are going to be teaching to that test.

You sure have a funny way of agreeing with something with which you have spent an entire thread disagreeing.

Standards don't matter unless you are not teaching them.

You teach the material required by the standards and then test them on what they learned. That is called "teaching to the test" by most nincompoops.

So, do you now admit that the fact that 75% of African-American boys in California not meeting the state reading levels has absolutely nothing to do with the standards?

 

[mgh80]

This is literally the dumbest question I've ever seen posed on USMB. Go ask your "teacher girlfriend", or person you know who was a superintendent.

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

^^^ this is what I'm talking about MGH. Standards drive curriculum. Curriculums may vary, but the "how" from district to district is going to be very similar. Is how macbeth is taught vs how othelo is taught going to be that different if kids still have to meet certain standards on a test, on say criticical reading. If your kids have to reach a certain standard of "critical reading" then you are going to teach them to meet those standards, on what those standards are looking for, their benchmarks, doesn't matter much whether it's othelo or Macbeth, you are going to be teaching to that test.

What do you think I've been saying throughout this entire thread? Seriously, man up and admit that you were wrong...because right now you're agreeing with everything that I've been saying.

PS: I've taught Macbeth and Othello and yes I taught each text differently. The destination is the same, but I'd use different lessons to reach the goal (except for my intro to Shakespeare lesson-that would be identical). It's just like I said earlier if you were racing from New York to Boston some might take the train (Othello), others might take a flight (Macbeth).

You've spent this entire thread arguing with myself and other educators...and now you're still arguing with us, while agreeing upon all of our points?

 

[mgh80]

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

^^^ this is what I'm talking about MGH. Standards drive curriculum. Curriculums may vary, but the "how" from district to district is going to be very similar. Is how macbeth is taught vs how othelo is taught going to be that different if kids still have to meet certain standards on a test, on say criticical reading. If your kids have to reach a certain standard of "critical reading" then you are going to teach them to meet those standards, on what those standards are looking for, their benchmarks, doesn't matter much whether it's othelo or Macbeth, you are going to be teaching to that test.

You sure have a funny way of agreeing with something with which you have spent an entire thread disagreeing.

Standards don't matter unless you are not teaching them.

You teach the material required by the standards and then test them on what they learned. That is called "teaching to the test" by most nincompoops.

So, do you now admit that the fact that 75% of African-American boys in California not meeting the state reading levels has absolutely nothing to do with the standards?

Some people will never understand, or are too stubborn to understand, that when they say "teaching to the test" what they really mean is teaching students the skills that are required in order to pass tests. You can't win with some people-their pride is too strong.

 

[sakinago]

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

^^^ this is what I'm talking about MGH. Standards drive curriculum. Curriculums may vary, but the "how" from district to district is going to be very similar. Is how macbeth is taught vs how othelo is taught going to be that different if kids still have to meet certain standards on a test, on say criticical reading. If your kids have to reach a certain standard of "critical reading" then you are going to teach them to meet those standards, on what those standards are looking for, their benchmarks, doesn't matter much whether it's othelo or Macbeth, you are going to be teaching to that test.

You sure have a funny way of agreeing with something with which you have spent an entire thread disagreeing.

Standards don't matter unless you are not teaching them.

You teach the material required by the standards and then test them on what they learned. That is called "teaching to the test" by most nincompoops.

So, do you now admit that the fact that 75% of African-American boys in California not meeting the state reading levels has absolutely nothing to do with the standards?

You're just a bad listener. This is what I've been saying. And you obviously missed the point here if you think I'm disagreeing with myself. And you just did the exact thing you accused me of doing
"You teach the material required by the standards and then test them on what they learned. That is called "teaching to the test" by most nincompoops."
What happened to standards not effecting curriculum?

How long will a particular curriculum last if it is not meeting the standards essentially set by the Fed Govt? It won't. If curriculum is say a horse, and standards are the reigns and whoever sets standards is the rider. Well it doesn't matter much if you're on a thouroughbred or an appoloosa, if it's the same rider at the reigns the horse is going to do the same thing, go to the same place. If your on an appoloosa, it's a little slower, but goes to the same place.

How did you come to the conclusion that I'd say that? No it's a symptom of allowing the state to have total control of education of your children. Which is what comes out of these standards, that according to you has nothing to do with curriculum. This is one of the main problems in education, another is being passive in kids education because, well the government and education majors just know better than me. Even though homeschool kids are scoring in the 90th percentile in almost every subject, despite having parents who have no formal education in education. Why is that? Is it BC they get so much more attention being in a much smaller "classroom"? That could be it, but wait, they also excel in college where classes sizes can get into the 100s, wouldn't there be some sort of shock to the system, not having 100% of your teachers attention in your learning? Or is it because with most homeschoolers, there is A LOT of self teaching involved, in other words they learn how to learn vs what to learn. That's the key.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Common Core requires one to think, which is why the parents hate it - they don't know how to do their kids' homework.

common core.

2+2= red

Only 75%, give our Progressive educational system another generation and they'll get that number up over 90%. Must feed the base more uneducated, governmentdependent voters

 

[danielpalos]

Report: 75% Of Black California Boys Fail To Meet Reading And Writing Standards

There's a problem with the education system, and it's not about money. The problem is with common core. Teaching students to be worker bees, teaching them there's only one way to skin a cat, and it's our way. Our education system has been continuing to fail our kids for the past 50 years, and their only solution is more and more money. We spend way more than most of the world per student, and the number keeps growing, and education keeps getting worse. When are we going to learn that one size fits all policy doesn't work. Dictating from the top down does not work. When you put a small group of people in charge over all citizens, you get a limited number of solutions to problems, and a lack of creativity AT BEST. Usually what you get is complacency, self serving actions to stay in power, and a black hole of money and increase in control that is never satisfied. And when they fail we give them more money, more control, more personnel, and what we get is the same solutions causing the problems, that just cost more.

It isn't working; how much cost do you want to sink on an Edsel?

 

[sakinago]

Again, I'm not asking because I do not know the answer. It's you 2 trying to claim that standards exist in a vacuum and have nothing to do curriculum.

And she was the super of 2 different districts and now is a big Whig at discovery channel.

Cite my post where I make that claim.

2 post previous to this, you claimed I didn't know what standards were, then the post after you implied the same by saying it's the stupidest question ever.

So can I get you to confirm that you believe standards DO NOT effect curriculum?

No specific curriculum is required for Common Core. As long as the curriculum meets the standards, everything is great!

^^^ this is what I'm talking about MGH. Standards drive curriculum. Curriculums may vary, but the "how" from district to district is going to be very similar. Is how macbeth is taught vs how othelo is taught going to be that different if kids still have to meet certain standards on a test, on say criticical reading. If your kids have to reach a certain standard of "critical reading" then you are going to teach them to meet those standards, on what those standards are looking for, their benchmarks, doesn't matter much whether it's othelo or Macbeth, you are going to be teaching to that test.

What do you think I've been saying throughout this entire thread? Seriously, man up and admit that you were wrong...because right now you're agreeing with everything that I've been saying.

PS: I've taught Macbeth and Othello and yes I taught each text differently. The destination is the same, but I'd use different lessons to reach the goal (except for my intro to Shakespeare lesson-that would be identical). It's just like I said earlier if you were racing from New York to Boston some might take the train (Othello), others might take a flight (Macbeth).

You've spent this entire thread arguing with myself and other educators...and now you're still arguing with us, while agreeing upon all of our points?

I've been in the exact same position this entire thread. Never changed positions. You two were the ones to say they're standards not curriculum and expect me not to call BS on that claim, or inference or whatever you want to call it. Well call it an inference since by saying "it's standards, not curriculum," the point of that statement is that one does not, or has minimal effect of the other. And I did so by asking how does one evaluate whether or not standards are met, in order to get to this point, to say well you have to test, and in your curriculum you make sure your kids can pass that test. Not because I didn't know what standards are as you claimed.