5th graders conspire to commit murder

[Esmeralda]

Maybe.

I tend to believe that there is a lack of stability of some kind when the results are 9/10 year olds designing a plan to kill a girlfriend or others.

Can that be repaired--I hope so.

I still can't get past 10 and 11 year olds having girlfriends.

Today's school curriculums involve "alternative" sexual lifestyles, gay marriage, abortion clinic phone numbers, free condoms, and not being afraid to admit that you may be a "gay" pre-teen.

But all of that stuff is perfectly OK.

Is it any wonder that some pre-teens can't handle this bullshit, and retaliate with violence?

Sex education is taught to students older than 10 and 11; even if it were taught to these kids, it has nothing to do with killing people. They get those ideas from movies and television. Perhaps the parents are not keeping a close enough watch on what their children are watching on television, the music they are listening to, or what they are doing on their computers, etc.

There was a case in England about ten years ago when two boys about the same age killed a younger boy. The killers were put in a juvenile facility until they were 18; they were treated for psychological problems while they were there. Both came from very dysfunctional families and had experienced abuse. I would hesitate to blame this behavior on schools before there was more information about the family backgrounds of these boys. Contrary to what some people like to think, family background and home life have far more influence on children than school does.

 

[wavingrl]

Two 5th grade boys, ages 10 and 11, charged in murder conspiracy - UPI.com

"We've been told that the boys had a plan to kill an ex-girlfriend ... and harm other students," Cashion said. "There was no list, but names were given to the police."

The world has gone to hell in a handbasket, what kind of 5th graders have "ex girlfriends"???? 10 and 11 years old, they're still CHILDREN.

10 year olds don't have girlfriends.

They should be assessed by a doctor because if they can plot murder at such a tender age, who knows what they'll be like when they reach adulthood.

That's the thing that is so disturbing, Noomi.

Yes, for whatever reasons, kids don't really have wholesome experiences in their early years and this sort of thing seems to be more common.

I can barely stand most of what is offered on the TV in the US--too explicit about every negative aspect and attitude about life. Then there's the internet and the list goes on.

There are parents who can and do provide guidance for their children and schools that do some really good things to keep kids focused on 'better' things. Those stories generally are not newsworthy. I wish they were.

~~~
Here's another example, if you are interested:
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/crime-law/details-emerge-about-teens-suspected-in-deadly-rob/nWQjL/

I think things are getting worse. Those involved in this incident were allegedly gang members. That is a problem that has developed in this area during the past 20 years. fwiw.

 

[Oldguy]

Y'all are all over the map here, trying to find a "reason" for this. You've blamed the kids, the parents, the schools, the government, TV and video games, even the corporate culture and society as a whole. All of those may indeed be contributing factors, but you're still boxing with shadows because there is no single cause and, hence, no single solution. This isn't a 30 minute TV drama which neatly wraps up by commercial time. It's real life, and real life is complex and often ugly.

I get the impression that most of you are not as old as I am (63), so let me give you some historical perspective. All of this has been going on right under your noses since AT LEAST when I first entered the public schools in 1955.

Violence in school? We fought openly on the playground during recess in grade school. By junior high, we had teachers encouraging it and, in high school, sometimes requiring it! I've even personally witnessed fist fights between students and teachers, as early as the 7th grade.

Weapons in school? Nearly all the boys carried pocket knives in 1st grade. By junior high, a few had guns in their pockets, mostly gang members from the "Cotton Mill" area or the east-side projects. By high school, those weapons were being brandished and sometimes even used on other students.

Sex in the bathroom? Gimme a break! Do you REALLY think that's brand new? Boys and girls were boys and girls, even back then, and it wasn't limited to school property. I can't tell you how many of my fellow students were pregnant and/or married before they graduated from high school, but it was a fairly high percentage. I changed schools to a much smaller school for my senior year, and of the 14 graduating members of the class of 1967, 2 were already married and one had his girlfriend pregnant on the night we matriculated. That percentage would probably not be unique.

There was bullying, thefts, robberies, fights, threats...the whole gamut of human interactions and it went on all day, every day in the public schools.

Yes, all of that was against the rules, but it happened anyhow. No, it wasn't in some large urban school, but in small town Texas and Oklahoma and it was during that time which too many people think of as the "good ol' days" to which we need to return.

Yet, in spite of all that, teachers taught and students learned. We had no cops in the hallways, no locked-down campuses, no gaggle of Assistant Principles prowling the hallways keeping order, no CPS or other government functionaries overseeing it all and the system still turned out students who could read and write, most of the time. Some students fell through the cracks, but it wasn't because education was unavailable. It was because they failed to take advantage of it.

That was the real world of public schools in the 1950's and 1960's, at least where I went to school and it was hardly any different anywhere else. All of the things y'all believe are wrong with schools today became part of the school experience over time to COMBAT THE VERY THINGS I'VE MENTIONED! New programs, new laws, new rules....all of it was well intentioned and driven by "correcting" the things which were wrong.

But, none of them worked. In many cases, it simply made it worse or drove things underground and out of sight, or even created a whole new set of problems which students and parents have to deal with today.

The point is that "fixing" what's wrong with public schools is an on-going exercise which never yields the expected results and whatever y'all think needs to be done now won't work either.

Know why? Because it always involves applying some kind of external effort to fix an internal problem. What ails the schools is the same thing which ails the country as a whole and it's found in the human heart. No "program" or new set of rules can fix that.

I'm not suggesting we all just throw up our hands and give up. There are things which can be done to ameliorate the effects of anger and hatred and prejudice and such, but that's all you can do. You can fight the symptoms, but you can't cure the disease. You can make schools physically safe for the students and teachers, but you're not going to turn out a generation of brilliant little saints, no matter what you do.

What it boils down to for the parents is that your best bet is to quit expecting the school to to do your job. You can insist your child be safe at school, but you can't expect them to teach your kids morality, religion, sex education or instill in them the desire to succeed. Only you can do that, and if it means you have to spend time with your child un-teaching what he's taught at school, do it. YOU have the ultimate responsibility for your child and only you. As was noted above, you probably can't fight city hall, but you CAN make sure that YOUR child knows what YOU want him to know.

No, you can't save everyone's kid and that's a tragedy, but you CAN save yours.

 

[wavingrl]

I'm not suggesting we all just throw up our hands and give up. There are things which can be done to ameliorate the effects of anger and hatred and prejudice and such, but that's all you can do. You can fight the symptoms, but you can't cure the disease. You can make schools physically safe for the students and teachers, but you're not going to turn out a generation of brilliant little saints, no matter what you do.

What it boils down to for the parents is that your best bet is to quit expecting the school to to do your job. You can insist your child be safe at school, but you can't expect them to teach your kids morality, religion, sex education or instill in them the desire to succeed. Only you can do that, and if it means you have to spend time with your child un-teaching what he's taught at school, do it. YOU have the ultimate responsibility for your child and only you. As was noted above, you probably can't fight city hall, but you CAN make sure that YOUR child knows what YOU want him to know.

No, you can't save everyone's kid and that's a tragedy, but you CAN save yours.

high five--good ideas and I am older than you.

I read bits and pieces of a number of other posts and sort of gave up. I know what some posters said was absolutely true--there are some very bad situations.

In an article I linked--Grayson, GA--14/15 year olds killed another student for tennis shoes--very nice tennis shoes--it illustrates that 'the tail is wagging the dog'. These were allegedly gang members. That is a problem that was unknown to this area 50 years ago. 'Keeping kids safe in schools' is more difficult today. The other issues --sex education and whatever else was mentioned I believe can be dealt with at home in most environments.

But what do I really know---not much most of the time.

I know that I am not being entertained in the manner I would prefer by TV. There were a few shows that were once entertaining. That is a problem to me. fwiw.

 

[Esmeralda]

What it boils down to for the parents is that your best bet is to quit expecting the school to to do your job. You can insist your child be safe at school, but you can't expect them to teach your kids morality, religion, sex education or instill in them the desire to succeed. Only you can do that, and if it means you have to spend time with your child un-teaching what he's taught at school, do it. YOU have the ultimate responsibility for your child and only you. As was noted above, you probably can't fight city hall, but you CAN make sure that YOUR child knows what YOU want him to know.

This I strongly agree with.

 

[Oldguy]

I'm not suggesting we all just throw up our hands and give up. There are things which can be done to ameliorate the effects of anger and hatred and prejudice and such, but that's all you can do. You can fight the symptoms, but you can't cure the disease. You can make schools physically safe for the students and teachers, but you're not going to turn out a generation of brilliant little saints, no matter what you do.

What it boils down to for the parents is that your best bet is to quit expecting the school to to do your job. You can insist your child be safe at school, but you can't expect them to teach your kids morality, religion, sex education or instill in them the desire to succeed. Only you can do that, and if it means you have to spend time with your child un-teaching what he's taught at school, do it. YOU have the ultimate responsibility for your child and only you. As was noted above, you probably can't fight city hall, but you CAN make sure that YOUR child knows what YOU want him to know.

No, you can't save everyone's kid and that's a tragedy, but you CAN save yours.

high five--good ideas and I am older than you.

I read bits and pieces of a number of other posts and sort of gave up. I know what some posters said was absolutely true--there are some very bad situations.

In an article I linked--Grayson, GA--14/15 year olds killed another student for tennis shoes--very nice tennis shoes--it illustrates that 'the tail is wagging the dog'. These were allegedly gang members. That is a problem that was unknown to this area 50 years ago. 'Keeping kids safe in schools' is more difficult today. The other issues --sex education and whatever else was mentioned I believe can be dealt with at home in most environments.

But what do I really know---not much most of the time.

I know that I am not being entertained in the manner I would prefer by TV. There were a few shows that were once entertaining. That is a problem to me. fwiw.

I'm curious to know whether or not my description of schools back then fits your experience too. Or, was it just mine like that?

 

[Esmeralda]

I'm not suggesting we all just throw up our hands and give up. There are things which can be done to ameliorate the effects of anger and hatred and prejudice and such, but that's all you can do. You can fight the symptoms, but you can't cure the disease. You can make schools physically safe for the students and teachers, but you're not going to turn out a generation of brilliant little saints, no matter what you do.

What it boils down to for the parents is that your best bet is to quit expecting the school to to do your job. You can insist your child be safe at school, but you can't expect them to teach your kids morality, religion, sex education or instill in them the desire to succeed. Only you can do that, and if it means you have to spend time with your child un-teaching what he's taught at school, do it. YOU have the ultimate responsibility for your child and only you. As was noted above, you probably can't fight city hall, but you CAN make sure that YOUR child knows what YOU want him to know.

No, you can't save everyone's kid and that's a tragedy, but you CAN save yours.

high five--good ideas and I am older than you.

I read bits and pieces of a number of other posts and sort of gave up. I know what some posters said was absolutely true--there are some very bad situations.

In an article I linked--Grayson, GA--14/15 year olds killed another student for tennis shoes--very nice tennis shoes--it illustrates that 'the tail is wagging the dog'. These were allegedly gang members. That is a problem that was unknown to this area 50 years ago. 'Keeping kids safe in schools' is more difficult today. The other issues --sex education and whatever else was mentioned I believe can be dealt with at home in most environments.

But what do I really know---not much most of the time.

I know that I am not being entertained in the manner I would prefer by TV. There were a few shows that were once entertaining. That is a problem to me. fwiw.

I'm curious to know whether or not my description of schools back then fits your experience too. Or, was it just mine like that?

I went to school in the 50s and 60s in a large urban area, in a blue collar, working class neighborhood. What you describe is really nothing like what I experienced. In elementary school, there were some fights among kids, even sometimes two girls, but not that often and definitely never encouraged by teachers. That was through the 8th grade. No weapons in school as far as I knew; I never experienced an bullying. Never a fight between a student and teacher to my knowledge. There were no gangs in those days, not where I lived.

In high school, I never heard anything about weapons in school. Nor sex in the bathrooms. Once in a great while, one of the older girls got pregnant, and it was a scandal. So, sure, some kids were having sex, but not, to my knowledge, inside the school. I don't remember any concerns about thefts, bullying, violence, threats, weapons, etc. in high school. There was an incident at the home of one boy where his best friend accidently shot and killed him with a rifle that belonged to the parents. That was the only incident of any serious violence I ever heard of during the 4 years of high school. And it was an accident, kids fooling around. There was, of course, the occasional fist fight between a couple of boys, but not typically, not a day to day thing. Smoking in the parking lot was a problem, and we had a man whose job was to patrol the parking lot most of the day to keep kids out of their cars and to keep them from hiding in the parking lot to smoke. He would send them back into the school building and never had much trouble about it. I know that because he was a second cousin and a friend of my parents'. He was a nice, gentle family man, a Catholic with 6 children. I know the kind of thing he dealt with because he told us all about his job and there was never an violence associated with it. I know there were some kids who drank on the weekends, but in my school, the girls who did that and who got pregnant were scandals, not typical at all.

I don't know where you lived, but where I lived was not a well of, white collar neighborhood. Our school was full off working class kids, blue collar mostly.

There was a group of kids known as the 'greasers;' my older brother was one of them. But the worst thing I ever heard of them doing was drinking, smoking and some got in trouble for stealing a car. Never heard of any serious violence. They were just losers and dropouts (including him). These kids were not feared by others in the school. They were looked down upon and ignored. No one was afraid of them. They didn't have the power to bully others, and I never heard of them being bullied: and I would have known as my brother was one of them.

When I read your post, I was wondering where on Earth you went to school: the Bronx???

 

[wavingrl]

high five--good ideas and I am older than you.

I read bits and pieces of a number of other posts and sort of gave up. I know what some posters said was absolutely true--there are some very bad situations.

In an article I linked--Grayson, GA--14/15 year olds killed another student for tennis shoes--very nice tennis shoes--it illustrates that 'the tail is wagging the dog'. These were allegedly gang members. That is a problem that was unknown to this area 50 years ago. 'Keeping kids safe in schools' is more difficult today. The other issues --sex education and whatever else was mentioned I believe can be dealt with at home in most environments.

But what do I really know---not much most of the time.

I know that I am not being entertained in the manner I would prefer by TV. There were a few shows that were once entertaining. That is a problem to me. fwiw.

I'm curious to know whether or not my description of schools back then fits your experience too. Or, was it just mine like that?

I went to school in the 50s and 60s in a large urban area, in a blue collar, working class neighborhood. What you describe is really nothing like what I experienced. In elementary school, there were some fights among kids, even sometimes two girls, but not that often and definitely never encouraged by teachers. That was through the 8th grade. No weapons in school as far as I knew; I never experienced an bullying. Never a fight between a student and teacher to my knowledge. There were no gangs in those days, not where I lived.

In high school, I never heard anything about weapons in school. Nor sex in the bathrooms. Once in a great while, one of the older girls got pregnant, and it was a scandal. So, sure, some kids were having sex, but not, to my knowledge, inside the school. I don't remember any concerns about thefts, bullying, violence, threats, weapons, etc. in high school. There was an incident at the home of one boy where his best friend accidently shot and killed him with a rifle that belonged to the parents. That was the only incident of any serious violence I ever heard of during the 4 years of high school. And it was an accident, kids fooling around. There was, of course, the occasional fist fight between a couple of boys, but not typically, not a day to day thing. Smoking in the parking lot was a problem, and we had a man whose job was to patrol the parking lot most of the day to keep kids out of their cars and to keep them from hiding in the parking lot to smoke. He would send them back into the school building and never had much trouble about it. I know that because he was a second cousin and a friend of my parents'. He was a nice, gentle family man, a Catholic with 6 children. I know the kind of thing he dealt with because he told us all about his job and there was never an violence associated with it. I know there were some kids who drank on the weekends, but in my school, the girls who did that and who got pregnant were scandals, not typical at all.

I don't know where you lived, but where I lived was not a well of, white collar neighborhood. Our school was full of working class kids, blue collar mostly.

When I read your post, I was wondering where on Earth you went to school: the Bronx???

I suppose my 50's/60's experience was close to 'The Wonder Years'--Father Knows Best/Leave it to Beaver.

The community was in agreement on values. There was no talking in the hall or at lunch in my elementary school. No bullying of any kind. Very focused on academic achievement and achieving in every aspect of life. My school district was nationally recognized at that time, fwiw.

Middle/upper middle class neighborhood.

 

[Oldguy]

high five--good ideas and I am older than you.

I read bits and pieces of a number of other posts and sort of gave up. I know what some posters said was absolutely true--there are some very bad situations.

In an article I linked--Grayson, GA--14/15 year olds killed another student for tennis shoes--very nice tennis shoes--it illustrates that 'the tail is wagging the dog'. These were allegedly gang members. That is a problem that was unknown to this area 50 years ago. 'Keeping kids safe in schools' is more difficult today. The other issues --sex education and whatever else was mentioned I believe can be dealt with at home in most environments.

But what do I really know---not much most of the time.

I know that I am not being entertained in the manner I would prefer by TV. There were a few shows that were once entertaining. That is a problem to me. fwiw.

I'm curious to know whether or not my description of schools back then fits your experience too. Or, was it just mine like that?

I went to school in the 50s and 60s in a large urban area, in a blue collar, working class neighborhood. What you describe is really nothing like what I experienced. In elementary school, there were some fights among kids, even sometimes two girls, but not that often and definitely never encouraged by teachers. That was through the 8th grade. No weapons in school as far as I knew; I never experienced an bullying. Never a fight between a student and teacher to my knowledge. There were no gangs in those days, not where I lived.

In high school, I never heard anything about weapons in school. Nor sex in the bathrooms. Once in a great while, one of the older girls got pregnant, and it was a scandal. So, sure, some kids were having sex, but not, to my knowledge, inside the school. I don't remember any concerns about thefts, bullying, violence, threats, weapons, etc. in high school. There was an incident at the home of one boy where his best friend accidently shot and killed him with a rifle that belonged to the parents. That was the only incident of any serious violence I ever heard of during the 4 years of high school. And it was an accident, kids fooling around. There was, of course, the occasional fist fight between a couple of boys, but not typically, not a day to day thing. Smoking in the parking lot was a problem, and we had a man whose job was to patrol the parking lot most of the day to keep kids out of their cars and to keep them from hiding in the parking lot to smoke. He would send them back into the school building and never had much trouble about it. I know that because he was a second cousin and a friend of my parents'. He was a nice, gentle family man, a Catholic with 6 children. I know the kind of thing he dealt with because he told us all about his job and there was never an violence associated with it. I know there were some kids who drank on the weekends, but in my school, the girls who did that and who got pregnant were scandals, not typical at all.

I don't know where you lived, but where I lived was not a well of, white collar neighborhood. Our school was full off working class kids, blue collar mostly.

There was a group of kids known as the 'greasers;' my older brother was one of them. But the worst thing I ever heard of them doing was drinking, smoking and some got in trouble for stealing a car. Never heard of any serious violence. They were just losers and dropouts (including him). These kids were not feared by others in the school. They were looked down upon and ignored. No one was afraid of them. They didn't have the power to bully others, and I never heard of them being bullied: and I would have known as my brother was one of them.

When I read your post, I was wondering where on Earth you went to school: the Bronx???

LOL No, just small towns in Texas and Oklahoma, one of them VERY small (Pop: Less than 200).

Smoking was against the rules, but we all did it in the parking lot and the teachers would join us. In elementary school, we'd all walk down to a local grocery store and have hamburgers for lunch, smoking on the way. I got 25 cents for lunch, which would buy a hamburger, bag of chips and a Coke, leaving 5 cents change. With that, I could buy a pack of cigarettes every 4th or 5th day.

And, I didn't mean to imply that we had fights and such EVERY day, but it sure wasn't uncommon. It wasn't as bad as "Blackboard Jungle."

 

[Oldguy]

I'm curious to know whether or not my description of schools back then fits your experience too. Or, was it just mine like that?

I went to school in the 50s and 60s in a large urban area, in a blue collar, working class neighborhood. What you describe is really nothing like what I experienced. In elementary school, there were some fights among kids, even sometimes two girls, but not that often and definitely never encouraged by teachers. That was through the 8th grade. No weapons in school as far as I knew; I never experienced an bullying. Never a fight between a student and teacher to my knowledge. There were no gangs in those days, not where I lived.

In high school, I never heard anything about weapons in school. Nor sex in the bathrooms. Once in a great while, one of the older girls got pregnant, and it was a scandal. So, sure, some kids were having sex, but not, to my knowledge, inside the school. I don't remember any concerns about thefts, bullying, violence, threats, weapons, etc. in high school. There was an incident at the home of one boy where his best friend accidently shot and killed him with a rifle that belonged to the parents. That was the only incident of any serious violence I ever heard of during the 4 years of high school. And it was an accident, kids fooling around. There was, of course, the occasional fist fight between a couple of boys, but not typically, not a day to day thing. Smoking in the parking lot was a problem, and we had a man whose job was to patrol the parking lot most of the day to keep kids out of their cars and to keep them from hiding in the parking lot to smoke. He would send them back into the school building and never had much trouble about it. I know that because he was a second cousin and a friend of my parents'. He was a nice, gentle family man, a Catholic with 6 children. I know the kind of thing he dealt with because he told us all about his job and there was never an violence associated with it. I know there were some kids who drank on the weekends, but in my school, the girls who did that and who got pregnant were scandals, not typical at all.

I don't know where you lived, but where I lived was not a well of, white collar neighborhood. Our school was full of working class kids, blue collar mostly.

When I read your post, I was wondering where on Earth you went to school: the Bronx???

I suppose my 50's/60's experience was close to 'The Wonder Years'--Father Knows Best/Leave it to Beaver.

The community was in agreement on values. There was no talking in the hall or at lunch in my elementary school. No bullying of any kind. Very focused on academic achievement and achieving in every aspect of life. My school district was nationally recognized at that time, fwiw.

Middle/upper middle class neighborhood.

Well, shoot. Maybe my experience WAS unique!

In any case, I'm sure it changed my perspective about things like this to something different than most.

 

[wavingrl]

I went to school in the 50s and 60s in a large urban area, in a blue collar, working class neighborhood. What you describe is really nothing like what I experienced. In elementary school, there were some fights among kids, even sometimes two girls, but not that often and definitely never encouraged by teachers. That was through the 8th grade. No weapons in school as far as I knew; I never experienced an bullying. Never a fight between a student and teacher to my knowledge. There were no gangs in those days, not where I lived.

In high school, I never heard anything about weapons in school. Nor sex in the bathrooms. Once in a great while, one of the older girls got pregnant, and it was a scandal. So, sure, some kids were having sex, but not, to my knowledge, inside the school. I don't remember any concerns about thefts, bullying, violence, threats, weapons, etc. in high school. There was an incident at the home of one boy where his best friend accidently shot and killed him with a rifle that belonged to the parents. That was the only incident of any serious violence I ever heard of during the 4 years of high school. And it was an accident, kids fooling around. There was, of course, the occasional fist fight between a couple of boys, but not typically, not a day to day thing. Smoking in the parking lot was a problem, and we had a man whose job was to patrol the parking lot most of the day to keep kids out of their cars and to keep them from hiding in the parking lot to smoke. He would send them back into the school building and never had much trouble about it. I know that because he was a second cousin and a friend of my parents'. He was a nice, gentle family man, a Catholic with 6 children. I know the kind of thing he dealt with because he told us all about his job and there was never an violence associated with it. I know there were some kids who drank on the weekends, but in my school, the girls who did that and who got pregnant were scandals, not typical at all.

I don't know where you lived, but where I lived was not a well of, white collar neighborhood. Our school was full of working class kids, blue collar mostly.

When I read your post, I was wondering where on Earth you went to school: the Bronx???

I suppose my 50's/60's experience was close to 'The Wonder Years'--Father Knows Best/Leave it to Beaver.

The community was in agreement on values. There was no talking in the hall or at lunch in my elementary school. No bullying of any kind. Very focused on academic achievement and achieving in every aspect of life. My school district was nationally recognized at that time, fwiw.

Middle/upper middle class neighborhood.

Well, shoot. Maybe my experience WAS unique!

In any case, I'm sure it changed my perspective about things like this to something different than most.

lol--from the stories that have been told on my high school's Facebook page --it seemed that 'things went on'---that I never knew about. A lot of 'the boys' have stories similar to what you described.

At my elementary school--with one of the strictest/best principals to ever live--according to some--there was a red bench outside the office. If you were very bad you would have to sit there and wait your turn to see the principal. I would absolutely have died if that had ever happened to me. My mother was also very strict.
One guy went to the red bench so often that when they closed the school he purchased the red bench. His father was a law professor and he is now also a law professor. I thought that was funny. He probably did express his own ideas at an early age--not something that was encouraged.

~~
I will add that this same school system, once known for excellence, is now on the brink of suspension from the state accreditation agency. It is quite an issue locally.

The area where the high school student was killed has gone through a similar transition and members of the community have rightfully insisted that this sort of thing will not do.

If I hear that a school is trying to stop 'criminal' behavior then I am encouraged.

Yes--kids used to bring little knives to school and some brought guns for show and tell and well--we were civilized--so we could do things like that.
There were students with disabilities and they were treated respectfully. Respect for differences was expected.

How we/society can get back to that--I don't really know.

 

[Oldguy]

I suppose my 50's/60's experience was close to 'The Wonder Years'--Father Knows Best/Leave it to Beaver.

The community was in agreement on values. There was no talking in the hall or at lunch in my elementary school. No bullying of any kind. Very focused on academic achievement and achieving in every aspect of life. My school district was nationally recognized at that time, fwiw.

Middle/upper middle class neighborhood.

Well, shoot. Maybe my experience WAS unique!

In any case, I'm sure it changed my perspective about things like this to something different than most.

lol--from the stories that have been told on my high school's Facebook page --it seemed that 'things went on'---that I never knew about. A lot of 'the boys' have stories similar to what you described.

At my elementary school--with one of the strictest/best principals to ever live--according to some--there was a red bench outside the office. If you were very bad you would have to sit there and wait your turn to see the principal. I would absolutely have died if that had ever happened to me. My mother was also very strict.
One guy went to the red bench so often that when they closed the school he purchased the red bench. His father was a law professor and he is now also a law professor. I thought that was funny. He probably did express his own ideas at an early age--not something that was encouraged.

Maybe that's it. Maybe it's a guy/girl thing. I think I'll query my friends and acquaintances of about the same age and see if I'm way off base or not.

I do want to clear up one thing, though. When I mentioned "gangs," it must be understood that they weren't gangs in the sense that we think of them now. They were just guys, and some girls, who lived in the same neighborhood, ran together, did things together and got in trouble together. Eventually, a good many of them ended up going to prison together or dying together from shootings, knifings or drunken car wrecks. Even that very small town where I went to school, the same pattern prevailed except that there was no other neighborhood and we ALL did that kind of thing. Of the bunch I ran around with, the ultimate destination for most of us was either the Army or the state prison. Two are currently doing life without.

But, most of us eventually settled down, raised families and worked until retirement. We became good, solid, middle class citizens in spite of our school experiences.

That's the thing, see? No matter how "bad" the schools are, or how much they fail students, most of them will turn out just fine and they'll have gotten the basic tools for success right there in those "awful" public schools. Those kids will survive. Not only survive, but prosper from having had the experience. Yes, some won't, but most will and the difference will be what they learned at home, not what they learned anywhere else.

 

[koshergrl]

It is interesting that while progressives insist that a certain curriculum be taught at school...and refuse to allow home/school collude on things such as sex education and religion (and even history in some cases) they are now insisting that children will turn out fine IN SPITE of what they learn at school.

It's as if they are admitting that the progressive school model is an abject failure, but it doesn't matter because nothing at school has any influence on kids anyway...any and all failures of children are to be laid only at the feet of parents and other outside influences. Schools carry none of the responsibility.

 

[jtpr312]

Two 5th grade boys, ages 10 and 11, charged in murder conspiracy - UPI.com

"We've been told that the boys had a plan to kill an ex-girlfriend ... and harm other students," Cashion said. "There was no list, but names were given to the police."

The world has gone to hell in a handbasket, what kind of 5th graders have "ex girlfriends"???? 10 and 11 years old, they're still CHILDREN.

5th and 6th graders that are raised in a Godless, moralless, liberal society that embraces hedonism and an anything goes sorta of lifestyle, that's what kind.

 

[wavingrl]

It is interesting that while progressives insist that a certain curriculum be taught at school...and refuse to allow home/school collude on things such as sex education and religion (and even history in some cases) they are now insisting that children will turn out fine IN SPITE of what they learn at school.

It's as if they are admitting that the progressive school model is an abject failure, but it doesn't matter because nothing at school has any influence on kids anyway...any and all failures of children are to be laid only at the feet of parents and other outside influences. Schools carry none of the responsibility.

shaking my head--too early for me to give a coherent response.

off the top of my head--as always--this is true for some and hopefully not the majority.

'School and Community' --to work in support of each other. I honestly don't think that can change.

 

[koshergrl]

When schools fight to waive responsibility for mandatory reporting, then we have a problem. And that is what they're doing. The partnership between school and community has been fractured at a very basic, structural level.

 

[Oldguy]

It is interesting that while progressives insist that a certain curriculum be taught at school...and refuse to allow home/school collude on things such as sex education and religion (and even history in some cases) they are now insisting that children will turn out fine IN SPITE of what they learn at school.

It's as if they are admitting that the progressive school model is an abject failure, but it doesn't matter because nothing at school has any influence on kids anyway...any and all failures of children are to be laid only at the feet of parents and other outside influences. Schools carry none of the responsibility.

Most kids turned out fine before your so-called "progressive model" and would turn out fine if you imposed some sort of conservative model. But, the model wouldn't be the determining factor, regardless. The determining factor is the same no matter what model you use: Initiative and desire on the part of the student. If kids want to learn and do well, they will. If they don't, they won't.

And that is something they cannot get in school. They get it at home.

 

[Oldguy]

Two 5th grade boys, ages 10 and 11, charged in murder conspiracy - UPI.com

"We've been told that the boys had a plan to kill an ex-girlfriend ... and harm other students," Cashion said. "There was no list, but names were given to the police."

The world has gone to hell in a handbasket, what kind of 5th graders have "ex girlfriends"???? 10 and 11 years old, they're still CHILDREN.

5th and 6th graders that are raised in a Godless, moralless, liberal society that embraces hedonism and an anything goes sorta of lifestyle, that's what kind.

And, the solution is what? Mandatory religion?

 

[wavingrl]

Well, shoot. Maybe my experience WAS unique!

In any case, I'm sure it changed my perspective about things like this to something different than most.

lol--from the stories that have been told on my high school's Facebook page --it seemed that 'things went on'---that I never knew about. A lot of 'the boys' have stories similar to what you described.

At my elementary school--with one of the strictest/best principals to ever live--according to some--there was a red bench outside the office. If you were very bad you would have to sit there and wait your turn to see the principal. I would absolutely have died if that had ever happened to me. My mother was also very strict.
One guy went to the red bench so often that when they closed the school he purchased the red bench. His father was a law professor and he is now also a law professor. I thought that was funny. He probably did express his own ideas at an early age--not something that was encouraged.

Maybe that's it. Maybe it's a guy/girl thing. I think I'll query my friends and acquaintances of about the same age and see if I'm way off base or not.

I do want to clear up one thing, though. When I mentioned "gangs," it must be understood that they weren't gangs in the sense that we think of them now. They were just guys, and some girls, who lived in the same neighborhood, ran together, did things together and got in trouble together. Eventually, a good many of them ended up going to prison together or dying together from shootings, knifings or drunken car wrecks. Even that very small town where I went to school, the same pattern prevailed except that there was no other neighborhood and we ALL did that kind of thing. Of the bunch I ran around with, the ultimate destination for most of us was either the Army or the state prison. Two are currently doing life without.

But, most of us eventually settled down, raised families and worked until retirement. We became good, solid, middle class citizens in spite of our school experiences.

That's the thing, see? No matter how "bad" the schools are, or how much they fail students, most of them will turn out just fine and they'll have gotten the basic tools for success right there in those "awful" public schools. Those kids will survive. Not only survive, but prosper from having had the experience. Yes, some won't, but most will and the difference will be what they learned at home, not what they learned anywhere else.

eh--My brother --Viet Nam era guy--very smart/science/chemistry--got involved with a group interested in drugs. Prison, pretty must lost his mind and then died--cancer.

Some of my father's ideas were extreme. I was glad to have the school experience I did.

Schools should be as good as they can be ---off to find more coffee.

nice chatting with you. Do you like 'Keeping the Faith'--Billy Joel? 'Lost in Let's Remember'--good tune.

 

[koshergrl]

It is interesting that while progressives insist that a certain curriculum be taught at school...and refuse to allow home/school collude on things such as sex education and religion (and even history in some cases) they are now insisting that children will turn out fine IN SPITE of what they learn at school.

It's as if they are admitting that the progressive school model is an abject failure, but it doesn't matter because nothing at school has any influence on kids anyway...any and all failures of children are to be laid only at the feet of parents and other outside influences. Schools carry none of the responsibility.

Most kids turned out fine before your so-called "progressive model" and would turn out fine if you imposed some sort of conservative model. But, the model wouldn't be the determining factor, regardless. The determining factor is the same no matter what model you use: Initiative and desire on the part of the student. If kids want to learn and do well, they will. If they don't, they won't.

And that is something they cannot get in school. They get it at home.

Not if the only structure they've had is school, and the schools are teaching them that those things have no value.

And that is exactly what has happened in the inner cities. Kids have no structure at home; the only structure is at school, and the schools tell them morality is worthless, that they have a right to do whatever they want, and faith is a lie.