400 Americans

[Iceweasel]

Thank you Ronnie Raygun.

Ah, I see. You were a stoner back in the day and miss those glory years.

The only glory years I can recall were the sixties when the economy was booming, we were putting men on the Moon thanks to a democratic president, and there were tons of high paying jobs. Nixon and Raygun made sure those days were over. Thank you Ronnie Raygun.

That's quite a narrow view. We still had little in the way of competition, seeing as how Japan and Germany were still in rebuild mode. Now there are many more than those two competing and competing very well.

 

[orogenicman]

You said "Most Wal-Mart employees don't make as much as you think they should because the work they do does not warrant it." I addressed most of that in several posts.

No, you described the effects of inflation, the moving of high-paying jobs overseas...
You haven't said anything with regard to the fact that the work they do does not warrant more pay -- that is, a minimum wage job pays minimum wage because the work done doesn't wararnt more.

People earn what they job they have is worth paying.
Want more pay? Develop skills that an employer will pay you more to use.
Its up to YOU to get a better job; it's not the government's job to force companies to subsidize your lack of motivation, education, training or ability

It's an artificial standard set up to justify paying slave wages.

The open labor market sets an artificial standard?
If the open labor market doesn't set a legitimate standard as to what pay a job is worth, what does?

It is not an open labor market. It hasn't been for quite a long time. The job market has left so many so far behind that, as we keep hearing from the right, many have simply given up on looking. That is not a sustainable situation. You cannot treat people as commodities. It is unethical, violates their human rights, their dignity, and puts them in the poor house. Moreover, it is a lousy business model. Happy, well paid workers are very good for the economy, and makes for a happier, mor productive nation.

Your naivete is only exceeded by your ego.

The job market didn't leave many behind. Many refused to keep up, and your government model sustains that, encourages staying behind.

Keep up with what? In the 1990s when all the high paying manufacturing jobs went overseas, the cry from corporate America was "go back to school and learn high tech" - i.e., computers. So we did that. Then all of those jobs went overseas, and the only jobs program the Republcians could think of when Bush came into office was to invade Iraq. So what did that leave us with? Today, when you look at the job market, the highest paying jobs, and the most plentiful jobs are in the medical industry. Why? Because people are friggin sick! Give everything that has happened in the last 15 years, it is no surprise.

 

[orogenicman]

You said it yourself but are apparently too stupid to realize it. Productivity has increased something like 3 fold since the 70's yet the average wage has stagnated. Not the top wage though, that's skyrocketed. Could that have something to do with the top wage earners diverting that productivity increase into their own hands? I'm sure that point will be lost on you as well.

Ok - so what?

Sure, McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys, Walmart, and hundreds of others.

All at or below the poverty line.

No sir, they do not.

DEFINITION of 'Living Wage'
A theoretical wage level that allows the earner to afford adequate shelter, food and the other necessities of life. The living wage should be substantial enough to ensure that no more than 30% of it needs to be spent on housing. The goal of the living wage is to allow employees to earn enough income for a satisfactory standard of living.
Living Wage Definition Investopedia


$22K x .3 = 6,600/12 = $550/month
$24K x .3 = 7200/12 = $600/month

Any other questions?

The sad truth is that most who live below the poverty line do so because of their own decisions.

That's a load of crap, and no doubt posted by someone who knows nothing of poverty or its causes. But hey, you greedy conservatives have always blamed the poor for their plight. Hopefully you will openly do so during the next election cycle.

Let me assure you - I KNOW poverty. I came from poverty. I WAS poverty. I AM the American success story. I busted my ass in order to go from a house that didn't have running water until I was 14 to where I am now (three houses). You can't tell me it can't be done, because I am the living proof of your lie.

I know it doesn't feed your innate sense of elitism, but we get exactly what we deserve in this life - whether we want it or not. I know you NEED to look down on people - you NEED to have somebody to feel sorry for - you NEED to have somebody you can care for. It feeds your ego --- I recognize that.

I didn't say it cannot be done. But each person's situation is different. The right wing elitist cry "what one man can do, another can do" is based on ignorance of the human condition. Not everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. It is a simple fact. There is no mold you can pour people into and have them all come out the same. It is a fantasy, a dangerous, costly one. And unnecessary.

So maybe you agree that some people are worth more than others.

Is an assembly line person more valuable than a PhD in physics? It all depends on who you ask. In many cases, that assembly line person makes more than the PhD does. I know several PhDs who work - on an assembly line and at other lower skilled job because there are no jobs available for him in his field.

 

[kaz]

Not any 5 yr old can do that.
Hell, lots of 20 something year olds can't do that. Dont believe me?

And it's not my responsibility to make them do it is it?

Sorry but you
re barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for sympathy from me for people who have so little drive and common sense as not to know you have to get to work on time and not be drunk.

We usually see eye to eye. I dont know why this is so hard for you though.
What I outlined are basic job skills Very basic. But lots of people just don't have them. Especially starting off. That's why they get paid min wage.

Sorry but waking up in the morning is not a job skill, neither is showing up on time and sober.

The only "skill" needed to show up on time is the ability to read a clock and most people learn that in grade school.

This is just like the obesity thread. Just as people know that eating better and exercising will result in weight loss they all know that showing up to work late and drunk will get them fired.

That's stunningly incorrect.
You have to budget time. You have to dress appropriately. I realize this seems pretty elemental. And it is. But it is surprising how many people actually cannot do this.
Have you ever hired for an entry level position?

Right, if you scare them, people with money won't try to use it to buy influence and politicians will become honest. What color is the sky in your world?

I didn't say they wouldn't try. But using disencentives could work if it is enforced. You are not going to get rid of all the corruption, but you have to start somewhere. Start locking up the corrupt corporate CEOs, for one. The corrupt politicians for another. And I don't mean in a Hilton Hotel jail cell, either. Put them in with the general prison population. If that doesn't scare them straight, nothing will.

So your plan is for politicians to pass laws that put themselves and the people buying them into an actual prison, not a white collar one. That's your plan. You didn't answer one question. What color is the sky in your world?

Yes I realize that in the corrupt political environment in which we find ourselves today, that's as likely to happen as to see pigs fly. It does take leadership, something we don't have. I said that that is what needs to happen. I didn't say it was going to be a reality anytime soon.

Well, we agree on that. Cutting taxes and spending is something that could be measured by an aware public. Accountability isn't. So just spending less would work if people got behind it.

I disagree. Cutting taxes doesn't actually solve much, particularly when the country and the world at large has so many pressing problems. Prioritizing to address those problems is a good first step. The most important step is jobs. Jobs, jobs jobs! And not just any jobs, but high paying jobs, in aerospace, high tech, etc.

Cutting tax rates will grow the economy, something it hasn't done for a while. And that will make whatever else we need to do more affordable. Though I'm not a neocon, so we probably disagree on how much we actually should be spending on in "the world at large." Most of our domestic problems would be solved by cutting taxes and spending right there.

 

[orogenicman]

Thank you Ronnie Raygun.

Ah, I see. You were a stoner back in the day and miss those glory years.

The only glory years I can recall were the sixties when the economy was booming, we were putting men on the Moon thanks to a democratic president, and there were tons of high paying jobs. Nixon and Raygun made sure those days were over. Thank you Ronnie Raygun.

That's quite a narrow view. We still had little in the way of competition, seeing as how Japan and Germany were still in rebuild mode. Now there are many more than those two competing and competing very well.

Oh really? Is that why China makes most products sold in this ocuntry? Because we had little competition? Give me a break.

 

[orogenicman]

And it's not my responsibility to make them do it is it?

Sorry but you
re barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for sympathy from me for people who have so little drive and common sense as not to know you have to get to work on time and not be drunk.

We usually see eye to eye. I dont know why this is so hard for you though.
What I outlined are basic job skills Very basic. But lots of people just don't have them. Especially starting off. That's why they get paid min wage.

Sorry but waking up in the morning is not a job skill, neither is showing up on time and sober.

The only "skill" needed to show up on time is the ability to read a clock and most people learn that in grade school.

This is just like the obesity thread. Just as people know that eating better and exercising will result in weight loss they all know that showing up to work late and drunk will get them fired.

That's stunningly incorrect.
You have to budget time. You have to dress appropriately. I realize this seems pretty elemental. And it is. But it is surprising how many people actually cannot do this.
Have you ever hired for an entry level position?

I didn't say they wouldn't try. But using disencentives could work if it is enforced. You are not going to get rid of all the corruption, but you have to start somewhere. Start locking up the corrupt corporate CEOs, for one. The corrupt politicians for another. And I don't mean in a Hilton Hotel jail cell, either. Put them in with the general prison population. If that doesn't scare them straight, nothing will.

So your plan is for politicians to pass laws that put themselves and the people buying them into an actual prison, not a white collar one. That's your plan. You didn't answer one question. What color is the sky in your world?

Yes I realize that in the corrupt political environment in which we find ourselves today, that's as likely to happen as to see pigs fly. It does take leadership, something we don't have. I said that that is what needs to happen. I didn't say it was going to be a reality anytime soon.

Well, we agree on that. Cutting taxes and spending is something that could be measured by an aware public. Accountability isn't. So just spending less would work if people got behind it.

I disagree. Cutting taxes doesn't actually solve much, particularly when the country and the world at large has so many pressing problems. Prioritizing to address those problems is a good first step. The most important step is jobs. Jobs, jobs jobs! And not just any jobs, but high paying jobs, in aerospace, high tech, etc.

Cutting tax rates will grow the economy, something it hasn't done for a while. And that will make whatever else we need to do more affordable. Though I'm not a neocon, so we probably disagree on how much we actually should be spending on in "the world at large." Most of our domestic problems would be solved by cutting taxes and spending right there.

Cutting taxes has NEVER grown the economy. At best, it is a temporary shot in the arm that benefits very few. What will grow the economy is to bring back our high tech jobs.

 

[Spare_change]

You get paid for what you contribute to the final product ... period. The comparison between 'productivity and median compensation' is an artificial measurement, contrived to create a false dichotomy, and create a strawman argument that, simply, doesn't hold water.

What payment should you expect when greedy capitalists outsource your middle class job to wage-slave states like China or "Right-to-Work states like Alabama? You apparently believe the rising percentage of income that's gone to capital instead of labor over the past thirty years represents an "artificial measurement" when, in fact, it's the logical outcome of capitalism's destruction of the workers in North America who made it rich in the first place.

Hell, that's an easy answer.

What payment should you expect when greedy capitalists outsource your middle class job to wage-slave states like China or "Right-to-Work states like Alabama? Not one single red cent - I don't expect anything - I earn it. And, when I'm not earning it, I don't deserve it.

"You apparently believe the rising percentage of income that's gone to capital instead of labor over the past thirty years represents an "artificial measurement" when, in fact, it's the logical outcome of capitalism's destruction of the workers in North America who made it rich in the first place."

I'll try to make this simple - the American worker has a perishable product - one hour of labor. It is worth exactly what you can get for it - no more, no less. If I buy your one hour of labor, and I can produce 50 times that for my own income, by what rationale would you say you deserve ANY of that?

Now, this so-called measurement you speak of - you, of course, conveniently forget reality. People who contribute more, make more. For example, the assembly line worker produces X number widgets; his supervisor manages 10 workers who produce 10X widgets - seems logical that the supervisor should make more, right? I, on the other hand, manage the company - I have 15 plants, 500 supervisors, and 5,000 assembly line workers. Seems pretty logical that I should make more than the supervisor, right? In addition to those supervisors, I have 120 sales people, 1500 administrative personnel, a company retirement program, health care program, and various and sundry other items that I am responsible for.
Oh, by the way, if one of those assembly workers leaves the company, we just plug in another, right? What happens when I leave? Not quite so replaceable, am I?

You also fail to notice that I put my future at risk every day - my future is that company. THAT is my retirement plan. You don't want to recognize that, without my investment, those jobs don't exist - period. It is my money, and my risk, that make your assembly line job possible.

Then, I see this '2 people own the whole world' argument - or, now it's '400 people make more than the rest of the country' nonsense. In order for there to be economic growth, it is imperative that there be centers of wealth concentration. I'll try to make this easy - if I make $50K a year, I have about $5,000 to invest (being optimistic, of course). But, if I make $100,000 a year, I have about $45K to invest (assuming only a 5% increase in lifestyle). Without that extra concentration of funding, companies don't get funded, projects don't get paid for, and jobs don't get created. We both know that if we were to spread that increase among 10 people (raising their salary to $60K), we would not get the same level of investment capital available.

Further, you (and others) happily glaze over the fact that MOST of the income for the rich does NOT come from labor - it comes from investment. You can work for your money (I do), or your money can work for you (it does). In addition, you completely ignore the fact that most companies are owned by the public. Your 401(k) plan owns shares in my company, shares in IBM, shares in Walmart, or whatever. Your insurance company owns shares in Microsoft, shares in JC Penney's, or whatever, thus driving down your cost of insurance. But, you don't bother to include that as part of your income - why would you insist on counting it as part of mine? Do you include the lowered cost of insurance as part of your income, since you consider the purchase of stocks as part of mine?

In short, if you take a myopic view, and focus your indignant little flashlight on one little area, your comments pretend to make sense. But, they are not grounded in the reality of the overall system.

 

[Spare_change]

The country has been steadily marching to the left, not right

Since when?

Can I have your attention over here??? Just give me a minute, please!

We have a new nominee for the 'Dumbest Question of the Week' award!!!!

Don't forget to cast your ballot today!

 

[orogenicman]

I didn't say it cannot be done. But each person's situation is different. The right wing elitist cry "what one man can do, another can do" is based on ignorance of the human condition. Not everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. It is a simple fact. There is no mold you can pour people into and have them all come out the same. It is a fantasy, a dangerous, costly one. And unnecessary.

Bzzzzt wrong. See? You don't even understand the right. We say it isn't up to government (or you) to decide who rises up. We know people are different, some are go getters, some, not so much. Taking money from the go getter and giving it to Mr. Notsomuch doesn't help the economy and when the economy suffers, Mr. Notsomuch suffers right along with it like most everyone else.

No the only manner in which the right thinks that people are different is in how many forks are used at the dinner table. Otherwise, you people wouldn't be having national conventions attended by only about 25 people who are not white. You people have skirted minorities for decades. You call Democrats elitist, when the fact of the matter is that the right in this country is the ultimate form of elitism. White, evangelical, sellfish, and stupid. We gave the money to your 'go getter", from the 1980s all the way until today. They kept it, invested it overseas, made a pretty penny, and left the rest of us sittting high and dry. Thanks Ronnie Raygun.

 

[M14 Shooter]

That's quite a narrow view. We still had little in the way of competition, seeing as how Japan and Germany were still in rebuild mode. Now there are many more than those two competing and competing very well.

LIberals refuse to understand that Americans compete in a world labor market.
That Americans compete in said market is the real reason for all the related things they whine about.

 

[Spare_change]

How do you plan to legislate that people get affection, understanding, creativity, etc?

By starting the legislative process with subsistence, leisure, and (economic) freedom.

Excuse me? What do you mean? We should now legislate subsistence, leisure, and economic freedom?

I'll bite - how would you propose to do that?

 

[The Rabbi]

No, you described the effects of inflation, the moving of high-paying jobs overseas...
You haven't said anything with regard to the fact that the work they do does not warrant more pay -- that is, a minimum wage job pays minimum wage because the work done doesn't wararnt more.

People earn what they job they have is worth paying.
Want more pay? Develop skills that an employer will pay you more to use.
Its up to YOU to get a better job; it's not the government's job to force companies to subsidize your lack of motivation, education, training or ability

It's an artificial standard set up to justify paying slave wages.

The open labor market sets an artificial standard?
If the open labor market doesn't set a legitimate standard as to what pay a job is worth, what does?

It is not an open labor market. It hasn't been for quite a long time. The job market has left so many so far behind that, as we keep hearing from the right, many have simply given up on looking. That is not a sustainable situation. You cannot treat people as commodities. It is unethical, violates their human rights, their dignity, and puts them in the poor house. Moreover, it is a lousy business model. Happy, well paid workers are very good for the economy, and makes for a happier, mor productive nation.

Your naivete is only exceeded by your ego.

The job market didn't leave many behind. Many refused to keep up, and your government model sustains that, encourages staying behind.

Keep up with what? In the 1990s when all the high paying manufacturing jobs went overseas, the cry from corporate America was "go back to school and learn high tech" - i.e., computers. So we did that. Then all of those jobs went overseas, and the only jobs program the Republcians could think of when Bush came into office was to invade Iraq. So what did that leave us with? Today, when you look at the job market, the highest paying jobs, and the most plentiful jobs are in the medical industry. Why? Because people are friggin sick! Give everything that has happened in the last 15 years, it is no surprise.

Do you actually know what you're talking about?
Manufacturing began leaving this country in teh 1970s, long before Reagan.
There are plenty of computer jobs out there. If you're trained and can't find a job there must be a good reason.
Unemployment under Bush basically never exceeded 6% until the last 2 months or so of office.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Is an assembly line person more valuable than a PhD in physics? It all depends on who you ask. In many cases, that assembly line person makes more than the PhD does. I know several PhDs who work - on an assembly line and at other lower skilled job because there are no jobs available for him in his field.

Who is to blame here?
The guy with the PhD, for not keeping his skills relevant to the labor market.

 

[Spare_change]

I didn't say it cannot be done. But each person's situation is different. The right wing elitist cry "what one man can do, another can do" is based on ignorance of the human condition. Not everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. It is a simple fact. There is no mold you can pour people into and have them all come out the same. It is a fantasy, a dangerous, costly one. And unnecessary.

Bzzzzt wrong. See? You don't even understand the right. We say it isn't up to government (or you) to decide who rises up. We know people are different, some are go getters, some, not so much. Taking money from the go getter and giving it to Mr. Notsomuch doesn't help the economy and when the economy suffers, Mr. Notsomuch suffers right along with it like most everyone else.

No the only manner in which the right thinks that people are different is in how many forks are used at the dinner table. Otherwise, you people wouldn't be having national conventions attended by only about 25 people who are not white. You people have skirted minorities for decades. You call Democrats elitist, when the fact of the matter is that the right in this country is the ultimate form of elitism. White, evangelical, sellfish, and stupid. We gave the money to your 'go getter", from the 1980s all the way until today. They kept it, invested it overseas, made a pretty penny, and left the rest of us sittting high and dry. Thanks Ronnie Raygun.

Ahhh --- you found it!!!!

I thought you had misplaced your race card - glad to see you got it back.

 

[The Rabbi]

I didn't say it cannot be done. But each person's situation is different. The right wing elitist cry "what one man can do, another can do" is based on ignorance of the human condition. Not everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. It is a simple fact. There is no mold you can pour people into and have them all come out the same. It is a fantasy, a dangerous, costly one. And unnecessary.

Bzzzzt wrong. See? You don't even understand the right. We say it isn't up to government (or you) to decide who rises up. We know people are different, some are go getters, some, not so much. Taking money from the go getter and giving it to Mr. Notsomuch doesn't help the economy and when the economy suffers, Mr. Notsomuch suffers right along with it like most everyone else.

No the only manner in which the right thinks that people are different is in how many forks are used at the dinner table. Otherwise, you people wouldn't be having national conventions attended by only about 25 people who are not white. You people have skirted minorities for decades. You call Democrats elitist, when the fact of the matter is that the right in this country is the ultimate form of elitism. White, evangelical, sellfish, and stupid. We gave the money to your 'go getter", from the 1980s all the way until today. They kept it, invested it overseas, made a pretty penny, and left the rest of us sittting high and dry. Thanks Ronnie Raygun.

Ahhh --- you found it!!!!

I thought you had misplaced your race card - glad to see you got it back.

We're dealing with an ill informed partisan hack here. His grasp on history is tenuous. His knowledge of business non existent. He spews crap and wehn called it deflects and spews more crap.
No point.

 

[orogenicman]

I didn't say it cannot be done. But each person's situation is different. The right wing elitist cry "what one man can do, another can do" is based on ignorance of the human condition. Not everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. It is a simple fact. There is no mold you can pour people into and have them all come out the same. It is a fantasy, a dangerous, costly one. And unnecessary.

Bzzzzt wrong. See? You don't even understand the right. We say it isn't up to government (or you) to decide who rises up. We know people are different, some are go getters, some, not so much. Taking money from the go getter and giving it to Mr. Notsomuch doesn't help the economy and when the economy suffers, Mr. Notsomuch suffers right along with it like most everyone else.

No the only manner in which the right thinks that people are different is in how many forks are used at the dinner table. Otherwise, you people wouldn't be having national conventions attended by only about 25 people who are not white. You people have skirted minorities for decades. You call Democrats elitist, when the fact of the matter is that the right in this country is the ultimate form of elitism. White, evangelical, sellfish, and stupid. We gave the money to your 'go getter", from the 1980s all the way until today. They kept it, invested it overseas, made a pretty penny, and left the rest of us sittting high and dry. Thanks Ronnie Raygun.

Ahhh --- you found it!!!!

I thought you had misplaced your race card - glad to see you got it back.

How many minorites do you see in this picture?

 

[The Rabbi]

I didn't say it cannot be done. But each person's situation is different. The right wing elitist cry "what one man can do, another can do" is based on ignorance of the human condition. Not everyone is capable of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. It is a simple fact. There is no mold you can pour people into and have them all come out the same. It is a fantasy, a dangerous, costly one. And unnecessary.

Bzzzzt wrong. See? You don't even understand the right. We say it isn't up to government (or you) to decide who rises up. We know people are different, some are go getters, some, not so much. Taking money from the go getter and giving it to Mr. Notsomuch doesn't help the economy and when the economy suffers, Mr. Notsomuch suffers right along with it like most everyone else.

No the only manner in which the right thinks that people are different is in how many forks are used at the dinner table. Otherwise, you people wouldn't be having national conventions attended by only about 25 people who are not white. You people have skirted minorities for decades. You call Democrats elitist, when the fact of the matter is that the right in this country is the ultimate form of elitism. White, evangelical, sellfish, and stupid. We gave the money to your 'go getter", from the 1980s all the way until today. They kept it, invested it overseas, made a pretty penny, and left the rest of us sittting high and dry. Thanks Ronnie Raygun.

Ahhh --- you found it!!!!

I thought you had misplaced your race card - glad to see you got it back.

How many minorites do you see in this picture?

Thats because they were all sent to Iraq to their deaths for big oil or unjustly jailed on trumped up charges. Those that werent murdered by police, that is.

 

[orogenicman]

How many minorities do you see in this picture:

Apparently they were all sent to Iraq to their deaths for big oil or unjustly jailed on trumped up charges.

 

[Listening]

How many minorities do you see in this picture:

Meaningless.

Give us a roster of each convention with the associated ethnicity.

Otherwise....shove it.

 

[orogenicman]

How many minorities do you see in this picture:

Meaningless.

Give us a roster of each convention with the associated ethnicity.

Otherwise....shove it.

The picture speaks for itself. And I don't need a picture or a roster. It isn't like it is some big secret that the Republicans have a huge problem with minorities. We all know it is true. It's just that you folks skirt around the issue and accuse us of race baiting. Denial is not a river in Egypt.