.304 and a Batting Champion?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

rightwinger , a salient example: Nico Hoerner.

Valuable player. Top player in MLB, for contact/ball to bat skills. He is a slappy hitter, but he strikes out very little. Unfortunately, he also doesnt walk much. He puts the ball in play, though.

Now look at his oWAR: 20th in MLB, per FanGraphs

Now, why would the league's top contact hitter be 20th in oWAR?

Because power produces more runs. Runs win ballgames, not singles, not contact rates.

 

[Jarlaxle]

And he did so in many more plate appearances.

Yet Turner's RBI total was 30% higher. In 15% fewer plate appearance than in a comparable season to Boggs.

Why do you think that is? Turner also hit leadoff.

I'll answer: because the guys in front of him at 7,8,9 are hitting more XBHs than the guys in front of Boggs. More guys in scoring position.

So, once again, you see the benefit of power in run production over slappy, on base approaches.

No, because the bottom of the Red Sox lineup on that era was lousy. You can't drive in runners you don't have.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

No, because the bottom of the Red Sox lineup on that era was lousy.

Exactly what I said...? More RBIs for Turner, because peole in front of him getting into scoring position more than they did for Boggs.


Furthermore, if you have to go to a first ballot hall of famer for examples, you're kind of finding the exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[rightwinger]

rightwinger , a salient example: Nico Hoerner.

Valuable player. Top player in MLB, for contact/ball to bat skills. He is a slappy hitter, but he strikes out very little. Unfortunately, he also doesnt walk much. He puts the ball in play, though.

Now look at his oWAR: 20th in MLB, per FanGraphs

Now, why would the league's top contact hitter be 20th in oWAR?

Because power produces more runs. Runs win ballgames, not singles, not contact rates.

I am going to have to agree with left winger here.
Sabermetrics and statistics nobody understands does not make the game more interesting.

Waiting around for a HR is not good baseball.
Strikeouts are not good baseball

Stolen bases are interesting, hit and run is interesting, runners moving on the base paths is worth watching

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I am going to have to agree with left winger here.
Sabermetrics and statistics nobody understands does not make the game more interesting.

Maybe not for you, but your entire livelihood does not depend on winning baseball games.

Waiting around for a HR is not good baseball.
Strikeouts are not good baseball

I dont disagree. Three true outcome baseball (walk, strikeout, homerun) gets boring because of lack of balls in play.

So, you will have to tweak things about the game. Because the mathematics of sabremetrics aren't going anywhere.

Like, lowering the mound. Like, juicing the baseballs.

 

[rightwinger]

Maybe not for you, but your entire livelihood does not depend on winning baseball games.



I dont disagree. Three true outcome baseball (walk, strikeout, homerun) gets boring because of lack of balls in play.

So, you will have to tweak things about the game. Because the mathematics of sabremetrics aren't going anywhere.

Like, lowering the mound. Like, juicing the baseballs.

It all comes down to baseball is entertainment.
Do you watch nine innings or just read the box score in the morning like a good statistical geek?

I grew up watching Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson.
When they got on base, you were watching every twitch. A Pitcher was more terrified about them being on base than facing a HR hitter
Current statistics may say what they did was irrelevant…..but it was compelling baseball

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It all comes down to baseball is entertainment.
Do you watch nine innings or just read the box score in the morning like a good statistical geek?

I grew up watching Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson.
When they got on base, you were watching every twitch. A Pitcher was more terrified about them being on base than facing a HR hitter
Current statistics may say what they did was irrelevant…..but it was compelling baseball

Was it?

Do you remember what happend to viewership and attendance, in the 80s and 90s?

Do you remember what, basically, saved the sport, in the late 90s?

 

[22lcidw]

It all comes down to baseball is entertainment.
Do you watch nine innings or just read the box score in the morning like a good statistical geek?

I grew up watching Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson.
When they got on base, you were watching every twitch. A Pitcher was more terrified about them being on base than facing a HR hitter
Current statistics may say what they did was irrelevant…..but it was compelling baseball

Knowing the game and the players though let you imagine what they did when you read the statistics at that time. The steroid era hurt the sport. Even though people liked the tape measure home runs. They made a mockery of what Ruth and Aaron did. Longevity was part of the program. Cannot even imagine pitchers going 9 innings or more today like they did in the past. Some of them were like pitching machines.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Knowing the game and the players though let you imagine what they did when you read the statistics at that time. The steroid era hurt the sport. Even though people liked the tape measure home runs. They made a mockery of what Ruth and Aaron did. Longevity was part of the program. Cannot even imagine pitchers going 9 innings or more today like they did in the past. Some of them were like pitching machines.

True. But half (or more!) of them would not crack MLB, in 2025.

 

[leftwinger]

Was it?

Do you remember what happend to viewership and attendance, in the 80s and 90s?

Do you remember what, basically, saved the sport, in the late 90s?

I quit in 94' at the strike. Came back casual in the 2000s not caring about HR or much of any of it.

Exhibit A. Phillies never heard of a bunt? Get somebody on? Get Snell in the stretch? Hit and run grounder thru the hole. Stolen base? Nothing?

Just going to roll over? Swinging fir back to back HR? Now they need 4 of them. SMH.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I quit in 94' at the strike. Came back casual in the 2000s not caring about HR or much of any of it.

Exhibit A. Phillies never heard of a bunt? Get somebody on? Get Snell in the stretch? Hit and run grounder thru the hole. Stolen base? Nothing?

Just going to roll over? Swinging fir back to back HR? Now they need 4 of them. SMH.

The HR is what got them there in the first place, though.

 

[leftwinger]

They even outlawed the shift? What next? No Blitz in football? Can only have 4 on the line? 4 cant be more than ten yds downfield? 6 DB not allowed? Must allow the deep pass to be easier? Hit it the other way. That will stop it.

None of their business where a manager puts HIS players. I don't care if he puts 5 of them near the RF foul pole. It's his business. That ruling drives me farther away.

 

[rightwinger]

The HR is what got them there in the first place, though.

Baseball sold out to those who know nothing about the game.
HRs and strikeouts
Finesse is gone from the game

Seeing a HR was always what you remembered about a game. But sitting through nine innings waiting for runs to score has gotten boring

 

[rightwinger]

Baseball is not alone in selling out to the HR

Football sold out its running game and defense for a pass happy league

Basketball is all 3s and dunks

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They even outlawed the shift?

To create more base hits and, therefore, more baserunners.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

HRs and strikeouts

*And walks.

And then XBHs and SBs.

Power and OBP create runs. BA correlates much less well. It's just a fact of baseball, and everyone caught on.

Guys who hit the ball harder make more runs. If you're a slappy hitter, you'd better be Wade Boggs or Nico Hoerner or Luis Arraez. or Ichiro.

Lots of gold glovers in the minors, for this reason.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Seeing a HR was always what you remembered about a game. But sitting through nine innings waiting for runs to score has gotten boring

Agreed, "three true outcome" baseball is boring. And THAT'S the "sellout" part: GMs getting control of those three, true outcomes that they CAN control. Strikeout pitchers, guys who walk, and guys who can hit HRs. Guys that do all the last 3 are MVP candidates. Guys that do all 3 are Shohei Ohtani.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

rightwinger

5th inning in Milwaukee.

7-3 Crew. All runs scored on HRs.

Every relief pitcher for both teams since the 3rd inning throwing 100 mph+

10 of the first 26 outs are Ks.

 

[leftwinger]

To create more base hits and, therefore, more baserunners.

But the thread itself is AVGs way down?

 

[leftwinger]

rightwinger

5th inning in Milwaukee.

7-3 Crew. All runs scored on HRs.

Every relief pitcher for both teams since the 3rd inning throwing 100 mph+

10 of the first 26 outs are Ks.

Mizerowski is considered a 100mph + continuous thrower. The others? Ahh...I was watching KC@JCKville