2nd Amendment, Scalia and what the Founders meant: Commas, Common Sense and Justice. The question is how to interpret the comma after 'free state.'

How to misrepresent things 101: By RetiredGySgt - book is unavailable but we have AI:

Under Title 10 of the United States Code, Section 246, the militia of the United States is officially defined to include almost all able-bodied citizens within this age range. [1, 2, 3]
The exact legal breakdown is divided into two primary categories: [1]
  • The Unorganized Militia: Composed of able-bodied citizens (and those who have declared intent to become citizens) who are at least 17 and under 45 years of age. (While historically framed as males, the Department of Defense policy outlines this composition).
  • The Organized Militia: Composed of the members of the National Guard and Naval Militia. [1, 2, 3]
These individuals can be called into service by the federal government or state authorities in times of emergency, though in reality, this "unorganized militia" is simply a legal classification rather than an active, functioning military unit. [1, 2]
 
How to misrepresent things 101: By RetiredGySgt - book is unavailable but we have AI:

Under Title 10 of the United States Code, Section 246, the militia of the United States is officially defined to include almost all able-bodied citizens within this age range. [1, 2, 3]
The exact legal breakdown is divided into two primary categories: [1]
  • The Unorganized Militia: Composed of able-bodied citizens (and those who have declared intent to become citizens) who are at least 17 and under 45 years of age. (While historically framed as males, the Department of Defense policy outlines this composition).
  • The Organized Militia: Composed of the members of the National Guard and Naval Militia. [1, 2, 3]
These individuals can be called into service by the federal government or state authorities in times of emergency, though in reality, this "unorganized militia" is simply a legal classification rather than an active, functioning military unit. [1, 2]
you quote it and claim it isnt so? GOD you are beyond ignorant.
 
I wonder if RetiredGySgt would support Trump calling something an "insurrection" and demanding that every citizen who are at least 17 and under 45 years of age into a military militia.

:auiqs.jpg:
 
you quote it and claim it isnt so? GOD you are beyond ignorant.
What isn't so is not that stupid old law. Would you support calling forth all citizens?

Let freedom and liberty die!
 
Citizens are Not in any unorganized militia. People like the sgt dope keep misrepresenting things.

too funny
 
you quote it and claim it isnt so? GOD you are beyond ignorant.
The End: "Legally, almost all U.S. citizens are technically considered part of the "unorganized militia", but this does not mean every citizen is automatically sent to fight in wars. The designation serves as a legal foundation for potential conscription, but the U.S. currently relies on an all-volunteer military."

 
What isn't so is not that stupid old law. Would you support calling forth all citizens?

Let freedom and liberty die!
it is the LAW and has not been repelled. some States, I believe most, have a militia separate from the National Guard.
 
it is the LAW and has not been repelled. some States, I believe most, have a militia separate from the National Guard.
Yep -
The End again: "Legally, almost all U.S. citizens are technically considered part of the "unorganized militia", but this does not mean every citizen is automatically sent to fight in wars. The designation serves as a legal foundation for potential conscription, but the U.S. currently relies on an all-volunteer military."

 
Correct.

And the militia alone would guard against a Federal government having become tyrannical, not every citizen.

The Framers did not amend the Constitution to authorize the destruction of the Republic they just created.

Moron....the National Guard, which you idiots consider the militia, can be Federalized at direction of the President. Which means they are no longer the "militia," they are then Federal Troops. you dope.

The Right to keep and bear arms is reserved to the people, not people in a militia. As has been pointed out, over and over again, the use of the word "people," in the Constitution always applied to individual Rights.

The Amendment also does not say "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms," it states the "Right of the People to keep and Bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
Bullshit. It couldn't be more obvious. I can't believe you guys choose to ignore

I can't believe you completely ignore the first 4 words of the 2nd amendment.
Yeah, you are indeed full of shit. Clocks made at that time have "WELL REGULATED" engraved on them to show they were of high quality.
 
no, it doesnt. the militia act is still needed and the right to be armed is still a right to self defense.
I think you've missed the point.

The question isn't whether self-defense remains a legitimate right. The question is whether the original justification for the Second Amendment still exists in the form the Framers envisioned.

The text is explicitly militia-centric: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." The Framers wrote that because the United States had no large standing army and relied on state militias for defense. That was the military reality of 1791.

In 2026, that reality no longer exists. The defense of the nation is provided by a professional military, not by state militias armed with privately owned rifles. No governor is going to repel a foreign invasion by calling up civilians with AR-15s. The militia rationale that animated the Amendment has been overtaken by history.

You mention a "militia act," but there is no Militia Act in the Second Amendment. There is a reference to militias because militias were considered necessary to state security at the time. My point is that they are no longer necessary to state security in the modern world.

If the modern justification for gun ownership is personal self-defense, then make that argument directly. But that is a different argument from the one the Framers actually wrote into the Amendment.

Originalists insist constitutional meaning is fixed by original public understanding. If that's the standard, then the Second Amendment presents a problem: the institution it identifies as "necessary" to a free state's security has largely become obsolete. That's why I said originalism becomes difficult to apply here. The world changed. The Constitution didn't. Note that I did not say or imply to eliminate 2A, my point was that it should be revised, i.e.., modernized.
 
it is the LAW and has not been repelled. some States, I believe most, have a militia separate from the National Guard.
Some 20 (not most) states have SDF's, I suppose that is your 'militia' but they do not replace the National Guard.
 
I think you've missed the point.

The question isn't whether self-defense remains a legitimate right. The question is whether the original justification for the Second Amendment still exists in the form the Framers envisioned.

The text is explicitly militia-centric: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." The Framers wrote that because the United States had no large standing army and relied on state militias for defense. That was the military reality of 1791.

In 2026, that reality no longer exists. The defense of the nation is provided by a professional military, not by state militias armed with privately owned rifles. No governor is going to repel a foreign invasion by calling up civilians with AR-15s. The militia rationale that animated the Amendment has been overtaken by history.

You mention a "militia act," but there is no Militia Act in the Second Amendment. There is a reference to militias because militias were considered necessary to state security at the time. My point is that they are no longer necessary to state security in the modern world.

If the modern justification for gun ownership is personal self-defense, then make that argument directly. But that is a different argument from the one the Framers actually wrote into the Amendment.

Originalists insist constitutional meaning is fixed by original public understanding. If that's the standard, then the Second Amendment presents a problem: the institution it identifies as "necessary" to a free state's security has largely become obsolete. That's why I said originalism becomes difficult to apply here. The world changed. The Constitution didn't. Note that I did not say or imply to eliminate 2A, my point was that it should be revised, i.e.., modernized.


No.
 
This argument has been around for a very long time. The question is how to interpret the comma after “free state.” It's incredible that it took a heavily stacked court to rule as they did. I support gun ownership. Have been a gun owner. I have never been in or desired to join a militia. Why would I? I'm no Timothy McVeigh.


Opinion | Commas, Common Sense and Justice - John McWhorter - You’re reading the John McWhorter newsletter. A Columbia University linguist explores how race and language shape our politics and culture.

Like language itself, punctuation is always in a state of flux.

If you are of a certain age, notice how you are likely using exclamation points more lately. It has become a mark of agreeability in a way that would mystify a time traveler from as recently as a couple decades ago. “See you in a bit!” “I looked for you yesterday but you weren’t there!” I now email like that.

This is part of a long story Florence Hazrat tells in “On the Mark: From Periods to Interrobangs, How Punctuation Remade the World,” due out in August...

It’s a roller coaster of a story. Ancient Greek had no spaces between words, Hazrat writes, and Aristophanes of Byzantium, a librarian in Alexandria, found it cumbersome...

In considering how the history of punctuation can affect history itself, Hazrat touches on the role of commas in the 2008 Supreme Court ruling that the Constitution’s Second Amendment — “a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed” — protects the rights of all people, not just militia members, to possess firearms. Hazrat finds the reasoning behind the ruling, District of Columbia v. Heller, is absurd. I agree.

The question is how to interpret the comma after “free state.” Justice Antonin Scalia, the author of the ruling, wrote that the comma set apart a mere preface to the “operative clause” of the amendment — the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Hazrat writes that Scalia’s analysis followed the tradition of the most conservative pro-gun advocates to take the part of the amendment before that comma as throat-clearing, with all the intention of the amendment coming after that comma. Scalia argued that that preface in no way qualified or limited the intention of the Bill of Rights’ framers.

Essentially Scalia argued that the Founders meant, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms — something separate — shall not be infringed.”

Hazrat argues that commas should play no role in interpreting the amendment...

Rather, we should accept the most plausible interpretation of what the words mean. Until this century there was a broad understanding that the Founders meant that all clauses of the amendment, no matter how many there are, should be read together. As in, people should be able to bear arms to serve in a militia, not just for any reason they want.

I would add that the comma is less the issue than that Scalia’s interpretation is hopelessly forced. Scalia persuasively argued that in the late 18th century, “bear arms” referred to using weapons in various ways, not just in a militia. But it still leaves a crucial question: Why would the Founders bring up one type of gun ownership — when serving in a militia — if they wanted to approve all kinds of gun ownership? If they wanted to preface their proclamation, as Scalia claimed, they could have mentioned not only serving in a militia, but self-defense and hunting.

Under Scalia’s analysis, the following sentence would pass muster: “Basketball, aiding in health, sports, shall be encouraged.” Such a sentence is beyond clumsy.

It insults the Founders to suppose that this sort of convolution was the best they could do when adjudicating something of such gravity.

It comes down to this: “Officials, being prone to partisan bias, Supreme Court justices, should interpret language according to what is most intuitive.”
Doesn't matter. That part of the clause doesn't do anything.
 
15th post
Incompetent rebuttal. Fail.
Your specialty. You know, when you continue to fail on such an epic level you really should look in the mirror and reflect on what makes you such an abject failure.

But that requires a higher level of self awareness than you possess.
 
Moron....the National Guard, which you idiots consider the militia, can be Federalized at direction of the President. Which means they are no longer the "militia," they are then Federal Troops. you dope.
The states cannot form National Guard units
The stats cannot disband National Guard units.
Only the federal government can.
The Amendment also does not say "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms," it states the "Right of the People to keep and Bear arms shall not be infringed."
They know. they lie to themselves.
 
The question is whether the original justification for the Second Amendment still exists in the form the Framers envisioned.
Even if you can demonstrate the answer to that question is 'no', it does not change the fact The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes,
The text is explicitly militia-centric: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..."
The right of the people.
Not the right of the militia.
Not the right of the people in the militia
The right of the people.
As none of the people - that is, not a single person - has a right to any give association with the militia, the 2nd Amendment necessarily protects the exercise of a right not connected to a person's relationship to the militia.
Originalists insist constitutional meaning is fixed by original public understanding. If that's the standard, then the Second Amendment presents a problem: the institution it identifies as "necessary" to a free state's security has largely become obsolete
See above.


 

New Topics

Back
Top Bottom