2013 sea ice thread!!!

[Old Rocks]

Nice way to post a lie. Here is the whole graph;

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/wordp...olumeAnomalyCurrentV2.png?<?php echo time() ?

Idiot. Try posting a graph that describes the same thing. Do you understand the difference between a graph describing ice thickness and a graph describing a volume anomoly? Guess not.

Damn, you are truly a dumb ****, Walleyes. Thickness has a bit to do with volume. And note SSDD's graph was from the last 2 and 1/2 months of 2012, and the first four months of 2013. In other words, the ice increased in thickness from mid-October to mid-March. Is that just ******* amazing. Arctic ice increases in thickness during the winter.

It is this kind of posting that demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy of people like you and SSDD.

 

[westwall]

Nice way to post a lie. Here is the whole graph;

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/wordp...olumeAnomalyCurrentV2.png?<?php echo time() ?

Idiot. Try posting a graph that describes the same thing. Do you understand the difference between a graph describing ice thickness and a graph describing a volume anomoly? Guess not.

Damn, you are truly a dumb ****, Walleyes. Thickness has a bit to do with volume. And note SSDD's graph was from the last 2 and 1/2 months of 2012, and the first four months of 2013. In other words, the ice increased in thickness from mid-October to mid-March. Is that just ******* amazing. Arctic ice increases in thickness during the winter.

It is this kind of posting that demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy of people like you and SSDD.

It might help your cause to target your vitriol at the proper target idjit. That's not my post you are responding to. Man, you have issues...serious issues.


Your profound apology is duly accepted...

 

[mamooth]

Your 1991 paper doesn't support your claims. First he is only talking about increased thickness of sea ice

My factual statement (as has been proven) was about sea ice. Yep, I left out the word "sea". Sloppy of me. However, given that it's a thread about sea ice, that should have made it obvious. As would the fact that land ice is decreasing while sea ice is increasing in the Antarctic.

You're just upset because I so conclusively debunked the "Scientists thought antarctic sea ice would decline!" denialist mantra. Mantras are so precious to denialists, because lacking facts, mantras are all they have. So when they lose one, it really stings.

 

[westwall]

Your 1991 paper doesn't support your claims. First he is only talking about increased thickness of sea ice

My factual statement (as has been proven) was about sea ice. Yep, I left out the word "sea". Sloppy of me. However, given that it's a thread about sea ice, that should have made it obvious. As would the fact that land ice is decreasing while sea ice is increasing in the Antarctic.

You're just upset because I so conclusively debunked the "Scientists thought antarctic sea ice would decline!" denialist mantra. Mantras are so precious to denialists, because lacking facts, mantras are all they have. So when they lose one, it really stings.

You posted a SINGLE paper nimrod. Thousands said otherwise, and, as was pointed out to you, the author was stupefied (how unsurprising) that the ice was increasing in defiance of everything else being written. He just bothered to look at the real numbers instead of the fiction that everyone else was looking at called computer models.

You couldn't "conclusively debunk" 9/11 much less this.

 

[IanC]

No, Ian, he stated flat out that the scientists predicted sea ice growth for Antarctica. There were some that thought that the warming would cause more snow to fall on the continent, but that has not turned out to be the case. And while the sea ice is increasing, it melts almost completely every year. In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice.

I couldnt be bothered to find papers that have predicted the opposite of mamooth's citation but you can be sure that there are some.

you said, " In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice." the predictions for ice loss in Antarctica were much larger a decade ago and have progressively become smaller, to the point that there are now papers that show ice mass gain. where do you get this 'ever increasing loss' BS? sounds very similar to your 'ever increasing global temp' meme, even though global temps have stayed flat for 15 years.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, Ian, he stated flat out that the scientists predicted sea ice growth for Antarctica. There were some that thought that the warming would cause more snow to fall on the continent, but that has not turned out to be the case. And while the sea ice is increasing, it melts almost completely every year. In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice.

I couldnt be bothered to find papers that have predicted the opposite of mamooth's citation but you can be sure that there are some.

you said, " In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice." the predictions for ice loss in Antarctica were much larger a decade ago and have progressively become smaller, to the point that there are now papers that show ice mass gain. where do you get this 'ever increasing loss' BS? sounds very similar to your 'ever increasing global temp' meme, even though global temps have stayed flat for 15 years.

Really Ian. A flat statement with no links to back it up?

Icebergs Get the Headlines, but Warm Oceans Are the Major Reason for Ice Loss in Antarctica - At the Edge (usnews.com)

Startling video and pictures of massive, intact pieces of ice breaking off from the continent of Antarctica – known as "calving" – are some of the most iconic, vivid images in our minds. The ice shelves that break off to become icebergs have fostered a general belief that the loss of mass on Antarctica is mostly due to this calving process.


New research, though, says huge losses of ice in Antarctica are due to something else – warm water beneath the ice shelves.

The first comprehensive survey of all Antarctic ice shelves by NASA and academic researchers found it is actually a warmer ocean – and not icebergs – that is responsible for the ice shelves' mass loss being documented by other ongoing research.

[READ: United States' Contribution to Global Warming Decreased in 2012]

"The traditional view on Antarctic mass loss is it is almost entirely controlled by iceberg calving," said Eric Rignot, who is with NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and is the lead author of a study published in the June 14 issue of Science magazine. "Our study shows melting from below by the ocean waters is larger, and this should change our perspective on the evolution of the ice sheet in a warming climate."

The research team combined data from a variety of sources - including satellite surveillance, airplane readings and reconstructed models of ice accumulation – to put together the first-ever survey of the entire continent and compare it to what is already known about ice sheet melting rates. The research was conducted from 2003-2008.

 

[Old Rocks]

NASA - Warm Ocean Causing Most Antarctic Ice Shelf Mass Loss

PASADENA, Calif. -- Ocean waters melting the undersides of Antarctic ice shelves are responsible for most of the continent's ice shelf mass loss, a new study by NASA and university researchers has found.

Scientists have studied the rates of basal melt, or the melting of the ice shelves from underneath, of individual ice shelves, the floating extensions of glaciers that empty into the sea. But this is the first comprehensive survey of all Antarctic ice shelves. The study found basal melt accounted for 55 percent of all Antarctic ice shelf mass loss from 2003 to 2008, an amount much higher than previously thought.

Antarctica holds about 60 percent of the planet's fresh water locked into its massive ice sheet. Ice shelves buttress the glaciers behind them, modulating the speed at which these rivers of ice flow into the ocean. Determining how ice shelves melt will help scientists improve projections of how the Antarctic ice sheet will respond to a warming ocean and contribute to sea level rise. It also will improve global models of ocean circulation by providing a better estimate of the amount of fresh water ice shelf melting adds to Antarctic coastal waters.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ice sheets and sea-level rise &mdash; Australian Antarctic Division

Since late 2005 (the cut-off date for work assessed by IPCC AR4), further studies of ice accumulation and loss ('mass budget') in Greenland and Antarctica have been made using satellite altimetry, satellite gravity measurements and estimates of the difference between net snowfall and discharge of ice. These confirm that both the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets are losing ice mass and contributing to sea level rise.

These new estimates suggest that the total annual loss from Antarctica since 1993 is around 100 Gt/yr (100 billion tonnes of ice per year; equivalent to ~0.25 mm/yr of global sea level rise). While the range of estimates from the different studies is large (from near zero to 0.5 mm/yr of sea level rise) they all suggest a net loss. Ice loss has been greatest along coastal sectors of the Antarctic Peninsula and West Antarctica. However, ice thickening (gain) further inland and over most of East Antarctica may have partially offset this loss. All of the available estimates, however, show that the loss of mass in West Antarctica is greater than any added mass in East Antarctica.

 

[mamooth]

Thousands said otherwise,

Then find one. Show us a paper predicting Antarctic sea ice melt. If you're not lying, and there are thousands of such papers, it should be trivial to find one.

When I make a claim, I back it up. When you make a claim, you scream "It's obvious!" and run. That's the level of science we've learned to expect from you.

 

[westwall]

Thousands said otherwise,

Then find one. Show us a paper predicting Antarctic sea ice melt. If you're not lying, and there are thousands of such papers, it should be trivial to find one.

When I make a claim, I back it up. When you make a claim, you scream "It's obvious!" and run. That's the level of science we've learned to expect from you.

When you decide to go full stupid you certainly accomplish your goal, the few below are the result of a .12 second google search.... There are at least another 70 pages that came up.

Knock yourself out admiral...

Waking the giant: Global Warming in the Weddell Sea, Antarctica and sea level rise : Indybay

Southern Ocean warming impact on Antarctic Ice Sheet and global sea level rise : Indybay

SOTC: Sea Level

SOTC: Sea Level

Sea Level Rise and its Effect on Delaware

Greenland, Antarctica ice melt speeding up, study finds - CNN.com

Ice sheets and sea-level rise &mdash; Australian Antarctic Division

 

[mamooth]

You're still batting zero. None of your sources showed anyone in the past predicting an Antarctic sea ice decrease.

So, you tried to divert from your mistake with a load of crap, hoping you wouldn't get called on it. I have no idea why you think you can get away with that tactic, given I always check things out and call you on it.

Why do you continue with these lie-a-thons? Wouldn't it be much easier to just admit you made a mistake, instead of all the pouting and screaming and doubling down on the big lie?

I'll never understand the emotional immaturity that prevents someone from admitting an error. Yet almost every denialist displays it. Kind of explains why they get sucked into the cult, since the cult reinforces to them they're special little snowflakes who are always on the side of right.

 

[Old Rocks]

They are not talking about the yearly sea ice, but the shelf ice. Once again, you stand exposed for the liar you are.


Waking the giant: Global Warming in the Weddell Sea, Antarctica and sea level rise : Indybay

A NASA and British Antarctic Survey study, published in Nature in April 2012, highlighted that 20 of the 54 ice shelves studied in Antarctica are being melted by warm ocean currents. Most of the present impact is in West Antarctica where ocean driven thining is responsible for rapid ice losses by the Thwaites and Pine Island Glaciers.

"We can lose an awful lot of ice to the sea without ever having summers warm enough to make the snow on top of the glaciers melt," said the study's lead author Hamish Pritchard of the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, United Kingdom. "The oceans can do all the work from below."

This highlights that much of the global warming taking place is happening in the world's oceans. Atmospheric temperature rises are just the metaphorical tip of the iceberg of the global warming effect on increasing ocean warming.

In Antarctica and above the southern ocean wind patterns are changing, which are changing ocean currents. The incease in basal melt and glacier acceleration has been linked to changes in wind patterns. "Studies have shown Antarctic winds have changed because of changes in climate," Pritchard said. "This has affected the strength and direction of ocean currents. As a result warm water is funnelled beneath the floating ice. These studies and our new results suggest Antarctica's glaciers are responding rapidly to a changing climate."

Dr Hamish Pritchard explains further from the British Antarctic Survey media release:

"In most places in Antarctica, we can't explain the ice-shelf thinning through melting of snow at the surface, so it has to be driven by warm ocean currents melting them from below."
"We've looked all around the Antarctic coast and we see a clear pattern: in all the cases where ice shelves are being melted by the ocean, the inland glaciers are speeding up. It's this glacier acceleration that's responsible for most of the increase in ice loss from the continent and this is contributing to sea-level rise."

"What's really interesting is just how sensitive these glaciers seem to be. Some ice shelves are thinning by a few metres a year and, in response, the glaciers drain billions of tons of ice into the sea. This supports the idea that ice shelves are important in slowing down the glaciers that feed them, controlling the loss of ice from the Antarctic ice sheet. It means that we can lose an awful lot of ice to the sea without ever having summers warm enough to make the snow on top of the glaciers melt -- the oceans can do all the work from below."

"But this does raise the question of why this is happening now. We think that it's linked to changes in wind patterns. Studies have shown that Antarctic winds have changed because of changes in climate, and that this has affected the strength and direction of ocean currents. As a result warm water is funnelled beneath the floating ice. These studies and our new results therefore suggest that Antarctica's glaciers are responding rapidly to a changing climate."

 

[Old Rocks]

Southern Ocean warming impact on Antarctic Ice Sheet and global sea level rise : Indybay

Climate change is causing the southern ocean to warm and freshen which will melt ice shelves and glacier tongues affecting glacier discharge and producing Antarctic Ice Sheet mass loss and global sea level rise. A new study shows that small temperature changes of the Southern Ocean can contribute to far-reaching changes on the Antarctic ice sheet that could lead to substantial future sea-level rise.

Again, the continental ice and ice shelves. Not the sea ice.

 

[Old Rocks]

SOTC: Sea Level

Current conditions: contribution from melting glaciers

Global sea level is currently rising as a result of both ocean thermal expansion and glacier melt, with each accounting for about half of the observed sea level rise, and each caused by recent increases in global mean temperature. For the period 1961-2003, the observed sea level rise due to thermal expansion was 0.42 millimeters per year and 0.69 millimeters per year due to total glacier melt (small glaciers, ice caps, ice sheets) (IPCC 2007). Between 1993 and 2003, the contribution to sea level rise increased for both sources to 1.60 millimeters per year and 1.19 millimeters per year respectively (IPCC 2007).

Antarctica and Greenland, the world's largest ice sheets, make up the vast majority of the Earth's ice. If these ice sheets melted entirely, sea level would rise by more than 70 meters. However, current estimates indicate that mass balance for the Antarctic ice sheet is in approximate equilibrium and may represent only about 10 percent of the current contribution to sea level rise coming from glaciers. However, some localized areas of the Antarctic have recently shown significant negative balance, e.g., Pine Island and Thwaites Glaciers, and glaciers on the Antarctic Peninsula. There is still much uncertainty about accumulation rates in Antarctica, especially on the East Antarctic Plateau. The Greenland Ice Sheet may be contributing about 30 percent of all glacier melt to rising sea level. Furthermore, recent observations show evidence for increased ice flow rates in some regions of the Greenland Ice Sheet, suggesting that ice dynamics may be a key factor in the response of coastal glaciers and ice sheets to climate change and their role in sea level rise.

In contrast to the polar regions, the network of lower latitude small glaciers and ice caps, although making up only about four percent of the total land ice area or about 760,000 square kilometers, may have provided as much as 60 percent of the total glacier contribution to sea level change since 1990s

Again, nothing at all about sea ice, other than one statement that it does not contribute to sea level rise.

 

[Old Rocks]

Sea Level Rise and its Effect on Delaware

The West Antarctic Ice Sheet

Earth’s largest quantity of ice sitting on rock is Antarctica. The upper reaches of Antarctic are at high elevation and the mass of ice is so large, that it is much less subject to air temperature. However, on the edges of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet are sea ice and ice shelves. As shown in Figure 6, large sections of Larsen B ice shelf are starting to break off into the ocean. When the ice shelf goes (again, floating ice does not raise sea level), we are left with the very large West Antarctic ice sheet, which consists of ice sitting on sloping rock (the “pinched off” area on the left side of the inset area map).

Think about a heavy pack of snow on your roof, as the weather starts to warm up. Like your roof, water underneath the West Antarctic ice sheet lubricates the ice, allowing the snow and ice to slide off. If the entire West Antarctic Ice Sheet melts, sea level will rise 8.06 meters (26 feet – referenced shortly). Since this sheet is unstable and could slide much more quickly than melting, sometimes only the unstable portion of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is discussed. Considering only the portion that might slide off before melting, that part would raise global sea level by 4 to 6 meters (O’Neill and Oppenheimer 2002).

No mention of Antarctic Sea Ice, just ice shelves.

 

[Old Rocks]

Greenland, Antarctica ice melt speeding up, study finds - CNN.com

Again, nothing at all on sea ice, just the continental and shelf ice.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, Walleyes, again nothing on the Antarctic Sea Ice. So what the hell do you think that you are dealing with here, a bunch of illiterates that won't check you referances? You are a fraud.

Ice sheets and sea-level rise &mdash; Australian Antarctic Division

These new estimates suggest that the total annual loss from Antarctica since 1993 is around 100 Gt/yr (100 billion tonnes of ice per year; equivalent to ~0.25 mm/yr of global sea level rise). While the range of estimates from the different studies is large (from near zero to 0.5 mm/yr of sea level rise) they all suggest a net loss. Ice loss has been greatest along coastal sectors of the Antarctic Peninsula and West Antarctica. However, ice thickening (gain) further inland and over most of East Antarctica may have partially offset this loss. All of the available estimates, however, show that the loss of mass in West Antarctica is greater than any added mass in East Antarctica.

 

[IanC]

No, Ian, he stated flat out that the scientists predicted sea ice growth for Antarctica. There were some that thought that the warming would cause more snow to fall on the continent, but that has not turned out to be the case. And while the sea ice is increasing, it melts almost completely every year. In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice.

I couldnt be bothered to find papers that have predicted the opposite of mamooth's citation but you can be sure that there are some.

you said, " In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice." the predictions for ice loss in Antarctica were much larger a decade ago and have progressively become smaller, to the point that there are now papers that show ice mass gain. where do you get this 'ever increasing loss' BS? sounds very similar to your 'ever increasing global temp' meme, even though global temps have stayed flat for 15 years.

Really Ian. A flat statement with no links to back it up?

how is this thread any different than the last thread we discussed this on? I couldnt be bothered to dredge up Zwally's presentations yet again. in case you havent noticed, generic 'chicken little' press releases get splashed over the media with google links galore. information contrary to CAGW, even when it comes from organizations like NASA, usually gets little publicity and you actually have to know where to look for it. Zwally made a big fuss over the glaciers losing mass on the penninsula, and in the last throw-away gesture stated that the continent as a whole was gaining almost 50GT per year.

Antarctica is a poster child for ridiculous CAGW alarmist claims. every new paper claims that now they know what is going on. until the next paper comes out and they have to scale back yet again. but they sure love to bring up the factoid about 'if the WAIS collapses the sea level will rise 30 metres' even though the next IPCC report will guestimate about 0.5 millimetre per year, and even that is wrong if Antarctica is really gaining mass.

 

[mamooth]

"It's obvious" is _still_ not support for a claim. But I guess it's all denialists have. It's all they've ever had.

 

[Old Rocks]

I couldnt be bothered to find papers that have predicted the opposite of mamooth's citation but you can be sure that there are some.

you said, " In the meantime, the continent is losing an ever increasing amount of ice." the predictions for ice loss in Antarctica were much larger a decade ago and have progressively become smaller, to the point that there are now papers that show ice mass gain. where do you get this 'ever increasing loss' BS? sounds very similar to your 'ever increasing global temp' meme, even though global temps have stayed flat for 15 years.

Really Ian. A flat statement with no links to back it up?

how is this thread any different than the last thread we discussed this on? I couldnt be bothered to dredge up Zwally's presentations yet again. in case you havent noticed, generic 'chicken little' press releases get splashed over the media with google links galore. information contrary to CAGW, even when it comes from organizations like NASA, usually gets little publicity and you actually have to know where to look for it. Zwally made a big fuss over the glaciers losing mass on the penninsula, and in the last throw-away gesture stated that the continent as a whole was gaining almost 50GT per year.

Antarctica is a poster child for ridiculous CAGW alarmist claims. every new paper claims that now they know what is going on. until the next paper comes out and they have to scale back yet again. but they sure love to bring up the factoid about 'if the WAIS collapses the sea level will rise 30 metres' even though the next IPCC report will guestimate about 0.5 millimetre per year, and even that is wrong if Antarctica is really gaining mass.

Your evidence for this is?