19.5% of America is on Welfare?

[TruthNotBS]

You’re being pedantic about the “10%” figure

What's a more accurate number than 10%? Any ideas?

raising wages doesn’t inevitably torpedo profits.

Did you see the term "torpedo" in an economics textbook?

If your overhead goes up slightly, your profit margins might shrink by roughly the same percentage,

You don't have to keep beating the drum of your ignorance. I mocked you the first time.

Henry Ford’s wage increase may not have been purely philanthropic, call it whatever you want, but it’s no secret he understood that paying decent wages helped reduce turnover, boost productivity

It wasn't philanthropic at all, and it wasn't so they could buy his cars either.

The bigger picture is that investing in worker pay tends to strengthen consumer demand, which can more than compensate over time.

Right. Investing in them. Not just boosting their wages because some politician or bureaucrat thinks it would be fair.

Todd, what a silly question! “What’s worse than starvation wages? No wages at all.” That’s a false dichotomy if there ever was one.

Not false at all.
If you can only add $10 an hour of value, earning an $8 minimum wage is
better than pricing you out of ever getting on the employment ladder at a $15 minimum wage.

You never answered.......

Should an employer pay less, the same or more than the employee adds in value?

You’re grasping at straw men. I never said a 10% wage increase magically translates into a perfect 10% dip in profits; I merely pointed out that boosting worker pay by a moderate amount doesn’t “torpedo” profits or suddenly knock you out of business. That’s you twisting the argument to dodge the real issue: workers who are paid better spend more, which can grow demand and ultimately benefit most industries, Henry Ford’s example included, yes, I know he wasn’t a saint, but he obviously understood the concept of paying a wage high enough to stabilize a workforce and expand a consumer base.

Your fixation on “if a worker only adds $10 in value per hour, a $15 minimum wage is unsustainable” is just another way to tell people, “Know your place, accept lousy pay, or go jobless.” You’re the one ignoring the bigger reality that wages and productivity aren’t fixed numbers; the very notion of “value” is fluid and can change based on training, automation, and overall market dynamics.

Moreover, you keep assuming that capitalism is the only game in town, as if advanced automation, AI, and robotics aren’t rapidly eroding the need for wage labor, and, by extension, for a capitalist class siphoning off profits. As Abraham Lincoln said, “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.” :

​

Once machines can handle the grunt work, what do we need so-called capitalist “owners” for? The entire premise of hiring or firing workers for a profit starts crumbling when machines replace most human labor.

Bottom line: your smug questions about “value added” conveniently leave out that the system is rigged to benefit capitalists in the first place. The public good i.e., ensuring people have decent lives, access to education and housing, and the freedom not to be bound to starvation wages, doesn’t need to bow down to your beloved “bottom line.” You can stick your "bottom line" up your ass Todd.

If capitalism can’t offer a living wage without collapse, that’s all the more reason we should ditch it. Especially in an era where technology can handle much of production, paying a decent wage or even moving beyond wage labor entirely, won’t destroy society. It’ll simply mean fewer capitalist parasites at the top claiming the lion’s share while everyone else struggles to stay afloat. **** the capitalists, they can all go to hell. How about that Todd?

 

[TruthNotBS]

Better public transit = no need for cars.

How does Russian/commie public transit compare to Japanese/capitalist public transit?

Japanese public transit is crap. Moscow's socialist constructed public transit was and is today, much better. Chinese public transit, which is much more socialist than the Japanese, is orders of magnitude better. I've visited Japan, traveled it extensively back in the 2000s, and it's absolute crap compared to Chinese public transit and even NYC.

 

[TruthNotBS]

When?

What planet or dimension are you living in? Wake up and smell the coffee. Even your beloved billionaires know it's coming and it's coming HARD:

​

They're begging the government (right-wing conservative Republicans always equate government intervention or involvement as "SOCIALISM!", "COMMIE!"), to give everyone a "UBI", to keep capitalism on life support a few more decades. Where are they going to get their customers if most people don't have or even need a job anymore, thanks to advanced automation and AI?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You’re grasping at straw men. I never said a 10% wage increase magically translates into a perfect 10% dip in profits; I merely pointed out that boosting worker pay by a moderate amount doesn’t “torpedo” profits or suddenly knock you out of business. That’s you twisting the argument to dodge the real issue: workers who are paid better spend more, which can grow demand and ultimately benefit most industries, Henry Ford’s example included, yes, I know he wasn’t a saint, but he obviously understood the concept of paying a wage high enough to stabilize a workforce and expand a consumer base.

Your fixation on “if a worker only adds $10 in value per hour, a $15 minimum wage is unsustainable” is just another way to tell people, “Know your place, accept lousy pay, or go jobless.” You’re the one ignoring the bigger reality that wages and productivity aren’t fixed numbers; the very notion of “value” is fluid and can change based on training, automation, and overall market dynamics.

Moreover, you keep assuming that capitalism is the only game in town, as if advanced automation, AI, and robotics aren’t rapidly eroding the need for wage labor, and, by extension, for a capitalist class siphoning off profits. As Abraham Lincoln said, “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.” :

View attachment 1066448​

Once machines can handle the grunt work, what do we need so-called “owners” for? The entire premise of hiring or firing workers for a profit starts crumbling when machines replace most human labor.

Bottom line: your smug questions about “value added” conveniently leave out that the system is rigged to benefit capitalists in the first place. The public good i.e., ensuring people have decent lives, access to education and housing, and the freedom not to be bound to starvation wages, doesn’t need to bow down to your beloved “bottom line.” You can stick your "bottom line" up your ass Todd.

If capitalism can’t offer a living wage without collapse, that’s all the more reason we should ditch it. Especially in an era where technology can handle much of production, paying a decent wage or even moving beyond wage labor entirely, won’t destroy society. It’ll simply mean fewer capitalist parasites at the top claiming the lion’s share while everyone else struggles to stay afloat. **** the capitalist, they can all go to hell. How about that Todd?

You’re grasping at straw men. I never said a 10% wage increase magically translates into a perfect 10% dip in profits;

Let's get a little more specific then.

Pick an industry and we'll look at what percentages of revenues go to wages and to profits.

I know he wasn’t a saint, but he obviously understood the concept of paying a wage high enough to stabilize a workforce and expand a consumer base.

Didn't give a shit about a consumer base.

Your fixation on “if a worker only adds $10 in value per hour, a $15 minimum wage is unsustainable”


Of course it's unsustainable. Only a moron, or a commie, would think it was.

is just another way to tell people, “Know your place, accept lousy pay, or go jobless.”

Absolutely don't accept lousy pay. Learn a skill, improve your marketability, don't expect your employer to go out of business paying you more than you're worth, just because a stupid politician thinks he can enforce bad economics with a regulation.

Abraham Lincoln said, “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.” :

**** the capitalist, they can all go to hell. How about that Todd?

Enjoy your Trabant, if you live long enough to take delivery.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Understood. But then font hire.

Try again in English please.

 

[initforme]

Don't hire. Simply do not hire. One doesn't need others to grow a business.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

What is the percentage of rural white residents on the dole in dates line WV or AK?

How many other states had the government kill off their industry?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Don't hire. Simply do not hire. One doesn't need others to grow a business.

You sir need to seek mental health care. Nothing you say makes any sense. Dementia and Alzheimer's sneaks up on you quickly!

 

[initforme]

Either pay a good wage or don't hire. Simple.

 

[Unkotare]

What planet or dimension are you living in? Wake up and smell the coffee. ....

^^^Typical leftist way of admitting defeat.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Better public transit = no need for cars. I can attest to that living here in Manhattan, and comparing how I lived in Miami, Florida, my hometown, where public transit sucks and everyone relies on cars to get around. Here I only own a vehicle for my wife, who likes to drive, otherwise, I would be riding the train everywhere, as I currently do.

How good is public transportation in say, Wyoming? My prospective son-in-law just drove to Kansas from Tennessee because there was no way he could go on a three-month trip without taking shit with him that he would need.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Either pay a good wage or don't hire. Simple.

Going out of business. That's your plan? That is exactly what is happening!

I can't make EVs cheaper than Elon Musk because I have to pay my workers twice as much as he does, so I'll just close up shop and be done with it.

Seek help! You are worse shape than most liberals. Nobody should be that stupid with full time custodial care. You might hurt yourself.

 

[gipper]

What is the percentage of rural white residents on the dole in dates line WV or AK?

I wouldn’t know, but would guess a lot.

 

[initforme]

Going out of business. That's your plan? That is exactly what is happening!

I can't make EVs cheaper than Elon Musk because I have to pay my workers twice as much as he does, so I'll just close up shop and be done with it.

Seek help! You are worse shape than most liberals. Nobody should be that stupid with full time custodial care. You might hurt yourself.

Am I supposed to be upset if businesses shut down? Surely not.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Am I supposed to be upset if businesses shut down? Surely not.

What if was a business that supplied you with something you dearly loved? The gas station where you always bought fuel for your car? What if it's the grocery where you shopped? Your dentist when he could not afford to pay his assistants?

You have no sense of the impact of what you are saying. senility will do that to you I have heard.

 

[TruthNotBS]

How good is public transportation in say, Wyoming? My prospective son-in-law just drove to Kansas from Tennessee because there was no way he could go on a three-month trip without taking shit with him that he would need.

The fossil fuel industry loves public investment in highways and gas-guzzling cars consuming their product. A socialist America would now have interstate bullet trains, and extensive public transit, even in Wyoming. It's not about profits, but serving the American public. The question isn't "How much money are we going to make if we build this transit system in Cheyenne, Wyoming", but rather, "Will the residents of Cheyenne benefit from a public transit system?", that's how socialists think. Will this serve the American public, not "How much money can we get from this?". We could have bullet-trains running 24/7 throughout the country, transporting Americans everywhere, much cheaper than the private, for-profit sector. Especially today, we're going to have automated, self-driving vehicles and buses..etc.

 

[TruthNotBS]

^^^Typical leftist way of admitting defeat.

Keep deluding yourself.

 

[Unkotare]

Keep deluding yourself.

Good luck on your term paper, kid.

 

[otto105]

Going out of business. That's your plan? That is exactly what is happening!

I can't make EVs cheaper than Elon Musk because I have to pay my workers twice as much as he does, so I'll just close up shop and be done with it.

Seek help! You are worse shape than most liberals. Nobody should be that stupid with full time custodial care. You might hurt yourself.

Hilarious take on business rocky.

You want to see a business failing, just check if they're trying to take money from their employees.

 

[TruthNotBS]

You’re grasping at straw men. I never said a 10% wage increase magically translates into a perfect 10% dip in profits;

Let's get a little more specific then.

Pick an industry and we'll look at what percentages of revenues go to wages and to profits.

I know he wasn’t a saint, but he obviously understood the concept of paying a wage high enough to stabilize a workforce and expand a consumer base.

Didn't give a shit about a consumer base.

Your fixation on “if a worker only adds $10 in value per hour, a $15 minimum wage is unsustainable”


Of course it's unsustainable. Only a moron, or a commie, would think it was.

is just another way to tell people, “Know your place, accept lousy pay, or go jobless.”

Absolutely don't accept lousy pay. Learn a skill, improve your marketability, don't expect your employer to go out of business paying you more than you're worth, just because a stupid politician thinks he can enforce bad economics with a regulation.

Abraham Lincoln said, “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.” :

View attachment 1066454

**** the capitalist, they can all go to hell. How about that Todd?

Enjoy your Trabant, if you live long enough to take delivery.

You’re deflecting again, cherry-picking one sentence about percentages instead of addressing the core problem: a system in which wages often hover at “barely livable” while profits for a tiny, greedy, capitalist owner class soar. If your primary argument is “learn better skills,” you’re ignoring the fact that someone still has to cook your food, mop floors, work retail, handle childcare, deliver packages, all those supposed “unskilled” and "worthless" jobs you depend on daily. Telling those workers “just upgrade or starve” ("F-U, GO F YOURSELF YOU PEASANT...) is not only heartless, it’s economically short-sighted: a society can’t function without those services, and if they’re all underpaid, you undermine the very consumer base you claim you don’t care about.

You’re not fooling me or anyone who knows their history by insisting Henry Ford “didn’t give a shit” about selling cars. Whether you want to label him altruistic or not, even he grasped that a higher wage cut turnover, built loyalty, and fed a market for his products, like it or not, that’s how industry-wide demand gets stimulated. If you only want to talk percentages, fine: in most industries, labor costs are a significant portion of expenses, but historically, paying more has not “destroyed” businesses across the board. Companies adapt, or they innovate; they don’t automatically collapse the moment wages rise above a meager baseline.

As for your “$10 value vs. $15 wage” talking point, it’s a fantasy number game that refuses to acknowledge that “value” is not a fixed, inherent measure: training, technology improvements, and basic human needs all shape what’s “worth” paying for. If your model can’t afford fair compensation for the workers who create the product or run the service, maybe the model is SHIT. Indeed that's what it is, GARBAGE.

Throw around insults like “moron” or “commie” all you want; it doesn’t change the fact that clinging to an economy driven by cheap, disposable labor is not only exploitative, it’s unsustainable and outdated in an era where automation and AI increasingly threaten the need for wage labor altogether. If you think paying people decently puts you out of business, just wait until people realize they can cut out parasitic capitalist assholes entirely. After all, as Lincoln said, labor comes first, hence if it can be automated, we sure don’t need a boss skimming the profits from the machine. We don't need you, Todd, you can go to hell.