$12,000 voucher?

[Wiseacre]

You really want your grandmother, or someday your mother, or someday YOU, in your 70's and beyond if you make it that far,

fighting day by day with some for-profit insurance company over what they'll pay or won't pay, fighting with a business whose business plan is to collect the most amount of premium possible and pay out the least amount possible?

For what purpose? For what good? How will your life be better? How will your senior years be better? How will the country be better?

As opposed to fighting with the federal gov't? You can sue a private company, good luck with that against Uncle Sam. What makes you think the gov't will be a better choice?

 

[The Rabbi]

So an unreliable, untested theoretical system is your answer?

No.

Non-sequitur post of the day.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You really want your grandmother, or someday your mother, or someday YOU, in your 70's and beyond if you make it that far,

fighting day by day with some for-profit insurance company over what they'll pay or won't pay, fighting with a business whose business plan is to collect the most amount of premium possible and pay out the least amount possible?

For what purpose? For what good? How will your life be better? How will your senior years be better? How will the country be better?

As opposed to fighting with the federal gov't? You can sue a private company, good luck with that against Uncle Sam. What makes you think the gov't will be a better choice?

The government is not in it for profit. People like Medicare.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why a voucher program, conservatives? What's the point of that?

Why don't you support just getting rid of the payroll tax that funds Medicare, and let seniors go buy insurance without the government involved at all?

 

[Brutus]

Why a voucher program, conservatives? What's the point of that?

when people shop prices go down and quality goes up!!! Liberal lack the IQ to know the basics

Why don't you support just getting rid of the payroll tax that funds Medicare, and let seniors go buy insurance without the government involved at all?

eventually that is the goal of course

 

[Brutus]

Why a voucher program, conservatives? What's the point of that?

when people shop prices go down and quality goes up!!! Liberals lack the IQ to know the basics

Why don't you support just getting rid of the payroll tax that funds Medicare, and let seniors go buy insurance without the government involved at all?

eventually that is the goal of course. When you shop with your own money you are a very good shopper and so the health industry will respond with lower prices and higher quality. And now another liberal knows his ABC's

 

[kiwiman127]

But if I had a voucher for 1000 a month for health care? I'm golden, and I'm 40. Just because it doesn't work for the 2% of the population that are medical train wrecks doesn't mean it won't work outstandingly well for the other 98%

That's great. Except the $8,000 voucher is being offered as a substitute for Medicare, which serves the elderly (and some disabled folks). Which happens to be a demographic in which high health costs are concentrated:

Older People Are Much More Likely To Be Among the Top-spending Percentiles

The elderly (age 65 and over) made up around 13 percent of the U.S. population in 2002, but they consumed 36 percent of total U.S. personal health care expenses. The average health care expense in 2002 was $11,089 per year for elderly people but only $3,352 per year for working-age people (ages 19-64).5 Similar differences among age groups are reflected in the data on the top 5 percent of health care spenders. People 65-79 (9 percent of the total population) represented 29 percent of the top 5 percent of spenders. Similarly, people 80 years and older (about 3 percent of the population) accounted for 14 percent of the top 5 percent of spenders (Chart 2, 40 KB).2 However, within age groups, spending is less concentrated among those age 65 and over than for the under-65 population. The top 5 percent of elderly spenders accounted for 34 percent of all expenses by the elderly in 2002, while the top 5 percent of non-elderly spenders accounted for 49 percent of expenses by the non-elderly.4

A principal reason why health care spending is spread out more evenly among the elderly is that a much higher proportion of the elderly than the non-elderly have expensive chronic conditions.

All of the proposals so far boils down to 2 main concepts: the gov't, in the form of the IPAB, will set HC prices to reign in costs, or the free market does through insurance companies. There really isn't a 3rd option out there as far as I know.

Yes, there is a third option and it's the one that's (tentatively, to be sure) being pursued: increasing value in the health system. That is, focusing on quality (and here we want to specifically hone in on health outcomes) achieved per dollar spent. That's not to say it's entirely orthogonal to what you're talking about but it is very different philosophically and, in certain applications, practically.

Good info, thanks!
And as anybody who studied Ryans's Medicare Reform plan knows that his plan calls for using the Consumer Price Index (CPI) as benchmark for the annual evaluation of voucher increases. For those who don't under understand the CPI, it the average inflation for goods and services. However, the inflation rate of health care and health care insurance consistently run considerably higher than the CPI. Below is a chart that shows the difference between the CPI and the cost of health care's inflation. The growing difference between the red and blue lines illustrates
what senior on a fixed income will face with Ryan version of Medicare.
Exactly how is this plan not a throwing grandma under the bus?

 

[Brutus]

the inflation rate of health care and health care insurance consistently run considerably higher than the CPI. Exactly how is this plan not a throwing grandma under the bus?

too stupid and liberal!!! Health inflation has been higher because liberals have made competition illegal!! With 12k voucher competition costs might be cut in half to European levels; with better outcomes to boot.

 

[kiwiman127]

the inflation rate of health care and health care insurance consistently run considerably higher than the CPI. Exactly how is this plan not a throwing grandma under the bus?

too stupid and liberal!!! Health inflation has been higher because liberals have made competition illegal!! With 12k voucher competition costs might be cut in half to European levels; with better outcomes to boot.

Really, please explain how liberals accomplished that and please use documented facts.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why a voucher program, conservatives? What's the point of that?

when people shop prices go down and quality goes up!!! Liberals lack the IQ to know the basics

Why don't you support just getting rid of the payroll tax that funds Medicare, and let seniors go buy insurance without the government involved at all?

eventually that is the goal of course. When you shop with your own money you are a very good shopper and so the health industry will respond with lower prices and higher quality. And now another liberal knows his ABC's

Where on earth is a free market in senior insurance producing lower prices and higher quality than seniors currently get with Medicare, plus their supplemental, since Medicare isn't a full coverage plan?

Name those places.

 

[Brutus]

the inflation rate of health care and health care insurance consistently run considerably higher than the CPI. Exactly how is this plan not a throwing grandma under the bus?

too stupid and liberal!!! Health inflation has been higher because liberals have made competition illegal!! With 12k voucher competition costs might be cut in half to European levels; with better outcomes to boot.

Really, please explain how liberals accomplished that and please use documented facts.

they made interstate competition illegal. Imagine how much toothpaste would cost if each state had its own requirements!!!!!

 

[Brutus]

Why a voucher program, conservatives? What's the point of that?

when people shop prices go down and quality goes up!!! Liberals lack the IQ to know the basics

Why don't you support just getting rid of the payroll tax that funds Medicare, and let seniors go buy insurance without the government involved at all?

eventually that is the goal of course. When you shop with your own money you are a very good shopper and so the health industry will respond with lower prices and higher quality. And now another liberal knows his ABC's

Where on earth is a free market in senior insurance producing lower prices and higher quality than seniors currently get with Medicare, plus their supplemental, since Medicare isn't a full coverage plan?

Name those places.

what???????? there is no free market in health care because liberals made it illegal!!!!

 

[Greenbeard]

they made interstate competition illegal. Imagine how much toothpaste would cost if each state had its own requirements!!!!!

Do you favor federal-level health insurance regulations instead of leaving that function to states?

 

[Brutus]

they made interstate competition illegal. Imagine how much toothpaste would cost if each state had its own requirements!!!!!

Do you favor federal-level health insurance regulations instead of leaving that function to states?

too stupid and perfectly liberal !! Conservative intellectuals don't want arbitrary liberal regulations, they want capitalism to produce the best possible health care at the lowest price through: published prices, competition, shopping. That is how we got from the stone age to here, not with libturd make-work bureaucrats guessing at what progress would look like!!

A liberal simple lacks the IQ to understand capitalism

 

[Greenbeard]

Conservative intellectuals don't want arbitrary liberal regulations, they want capitalism to produce the best possible health care at the lowest price through: published prices, competition, shopping.

Mmhm. And at what level would you like to see that governed? At the state or the federal level?

 

[Brutus]

Conservative intellectuals don't want arbitrary liberal regulations, they want capitalism to produce the best possible health care at the lowest price through: published prices, competition, shopping.

Mmhm. And at what level would you like to see that governed? At the state or the federal level?

What?????? who cares?????/ Most importantly it would require and depend on very little government.

A liberal lacks the IQ to understand capitalism

 

[Greenbeard]

What?????? who cares?????/

You, I believe. You're complaining about state-level variations in regulatory environments, which is an artifact of leaving governance of the individual health insurance market to the states. If you want a uniform regulatory environment, that requires federal usurpation of what's traditionally been a state role (explicitly so, since McCarran–Ferguson).

Federalization of state functions isn't often the conservative position.

 

[Brutus]

What?????? who cares?????/

You, I believe. You're complaining about state-level variations in regulatory environments, which is an artifact of leaving governance of the individual health insurance market to the states. If you want a uniform regulatory environment, that requires federal usurpation of what's traditionally been a state role (explicitly so, since McCarran–Ferguson).

Federalization of state functions isn't often the conservative position.

too stupid and perfectly liberal! With minimal regulation there is a national free market market for tooth paste and almost all products. Conservatives universally support this because it has made us the richest country in human history!!

A liberal will simply lack the IQ to understand capitalism

 

[kiwiman127]

too stupid and liberal!!! Health inflation has been higher because liberals have made competition illegal!! With 12k voucher competition costs might be cut in half to European levels; with better outcomes to boot.

Really, please explain how liberals accomplished that and please use documented facts.

they made interstate competition illegal. Imagine how much toothpaste would cost if each state had its own requirements!!!!!

Maybe you should read up on subjects before you even comment on them.

The McCarran–Ferguson Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1011-1015, is a United States federal law that exempts the business of insurance from most federal regulation, including federal anti-trust laws to a limited extent. The McCarran–Ferguson Act was passed by Congress in 1945 after the Supreme Court ruled in United States v. South-Eastern Underwriters Association that the federal government could regulate insurance companies under the authority of the Commerce Clause in the U.S. Constitution.

<snip>

The McCarran–Ferguson Act does not itself regulate insurance, nor does it mandate that states regulate insurance. "Acts of Congress" that do not expressly purport to regulate the "business of insurance" will not preempt state laws or regulations that regulate the "business of insurance."

The Act also provides that federal anti-trust laws will not apply to the "business of insurance" as long as the state regulates in that area, but federal anti-trust laws will apply in cases of boycott, coercion, and intimidation. By contrast, most other federal laws will not apply to insurance whether the states regulate in that area or not

<snip>

United States v. South-Eastern Underwriters Association (322 U.S. 533) came before the Supreme Court in 1944 on appeal from a district court located in north Georgia. The South-Eastern Underwriters Association controlled 90 percent of the market for fire and other insurance lines in six southern states and set rates at non-competitive levels. Furthermore, it used intimidation, boycotts and other coercive tactics to maintain its monopoly.

The question before the Court was whether or not insurance was a form of "interstate commerce" which could be regulated under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.
<snip>

As a result, on March 9, 1945, the McCarran–Ferguson Act was passed by Congress. Among other things, it:

partially exempts insurance companies from the federal anti-trust legislation that applies to most businesses[1]
allows for the state regulation of insurance
allows states to establish mandatory licensing requirements
preserves certain state laws of insurance

McCarran

=====================
So instead of eliminating competition the bill promotes competition by eliminating the monopoly that existed when the bill was written.

Again Brutus, you should read up of facts before you make ignorant statements as you have in this thread.

 

[The Rabbi]

Conservative intellectuals don't want arbitrary liberal regulations, they want capitalism to produce the best possible health care at the lowest price through: published prices, competition, shopping.

Mmhm. And at what level would you like to see that governed? At the state or the federal level?

Why does it need to be "governed" at all?