Would Cains 9-9-9 help you?

[Synthaholic]

from the article:

Iowa Poll: Many think Cain’s 9-9-9 plan would help them

Two-thirds of likely Iowa Republican caucus goers earning less than $50,000 a year believe they personally would be better off or in the same situation under Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan, The Des Moines Register’s new Iowa Poll shows.


Research-group reviews of the plan have found that most families making $100,000 or less would pay thousands of dollars more each year.


“The larger point is that people don’t really understand what the 9-9-9 plan actually is, and they’re assuming incorrectly that they may not pay one or any of these taxes,” said Joe Rosenberg, a research associate for the Tax Policy Center, a group based in Washington, D.C., that bills itself as a nonpartisan economic research institute.


Cain’s plan would eliminate the current individual income tax, corporate income tax and payroll tax and replace them with a new 9 percent national sales tax, a 9 percent business tax and a 9 percent income tax. Estate and gift taxes would be eliminated.

 

[Jarhead]

9-9-9 in my estimation will bankrupt our country in a matter of years.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Why do you think that 18 cents a galllon tax stays?

"Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain, who has pledged to throw out the U.S. tax code, now says he would keep excise taxes on goods such as gasoline, beer and cigarettes. " Cain 9-9-9 Plan to Eliminate Tax Code Keeps U.S. Levies on Gasoline, Beer - Bloomberg

"But while his now-famous 9-9-9 tax plan would scrap the current tax structure in favor of a more simplified system, $90 billion in various federal taxes and fees would still be left intact.
.
That includes excise taxes on things like gas and alcohol, tobacco and firearms, airline tickets and phone service. Taxes you'll still pay under Cain's 9-9-9 plan - Oct. 17, 2011






It might, IF we were going from a 25% tax on income to a 9% tax on income. But 9-9-9 doesn't do that. It goes (to use your number) from a 25% tax on income to a 9% tax on gross revenue. Since the tax is now on revenue and not profit, then that is a different ballgame.

I am going to DD the gas tax

I don't understand this comment.



>>>>

Due Dilligance
Are you saying that corporations (the consumer) would be paying 9% tax on all gross instead of profit?
I cannot find that
Chris Weigant: Republicans Attack Cain's 9-9-9 Plan
I am not a fan of the post, AT ALL
I google it and this is all that came up (gross instead of profit)

"9% Business Flat Tax
• Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located
businesses, all capital investment, and net exports."​

http://www.hermancain.com/docs/999-for-web-10-12.pdf


Yes, Cain's 9-9-9 taxes "Gross Income" which is "Gross Revenue" with only limited items that don't count towards "Gross Income". Taxing "Gross Income" is much different than taxing "profit".

The tax is applicable whether the company or mom & pop shop is making a "profit" or not.



>>>>

 

[JRK]

If the coporate tax is near a record low, then this will fix that
In all relaity your talking a higher corporate tax
they buy, they get taxed also
if a corporation makes a good profit they pay a good tax
Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
if there loop holing it, this stops it

You seem to be missing an important point when you say "if a corpration makes a good profit they pay a good tax". That's not the way 9-9-9 works as the tax is not based on the company making a good profit, it's based on revenues.

Profit = Revenues - Costs

The difference between taxing "profit" verses "revenues" is huge. Under 9-9-9 there are only limited things that get to be deducted from the revenues for tax purposes and employee costs are not one of them.



>>>>

No I do not get it. To start with the consumer pays all taxes. Are you saying that the 9% will be on gross, or os it on profit?
I cannot find a link that states it would be on gross, that does not make sense

Do you have a link?

 

[WorldWatcher]

>

"9% Business Flat Tax
• Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located
businesses, all capital investment, and net exports."​

http://www.hermancain.com/docs/999-for-web-10-12.pdf


This thought just occurred to me, so let me throw it out there to mature.



Since 9-9-9 taxes gross income and not profit, employee wages are not part of what can be deducted. So under 9-9-9 wages and benefits are not "deductible" and the company is taxed on what would have been deductible as an expense.

So I wonder if there will be a new business model which will be an incentive for Company "A" NOT to hire employees, but to hire them from Company "B". For Company "A" that now becomes an deductible expense as "purchases from other U.S. located businesses" are deductible.

Couple that with the idea that there are lots of business that are looking at dropping Health Insurance benefits because of ObamaCare, they are realizing that it is cheaper in the long run to not offer plans, their employees get it through State pools, and they go ahead and pay the $2,000 per employee fine. (BTW - Most employers who offer Health Insurance contribute probably around $10,000 a year to the cost of the premium. 10000-2000 = $8,000 which is a significant savings.)



>>>>

 

[ScreamingEagle]

"Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain, who has pledged to throw out the U.S. tax code, now says he would keep excise taxes on goods such as gasoline, beer and cigarettes. " Cain 9-9-9 Plan to Eliminate Tax Code Keeps U.S. Levies on Gasoline, Beer - Bloomberg

"But while his now-famous 9-9-9 tax plan would scrap the current tax structure in favor of a more simplified system, $90 billion in various federal taxes and fees would still be left intact.
.
That includes excise taxes on things like gas and alcohol, tobacco and firearms, airline tickets and phone service. Taxes you'll still pay under Cain's 9-9-9 plan - Oct. 17, 2011






It might, IF we were going from a 25% tax on income to a 9% tax on income. But 9-9-9 doesn't do that. It goes (to use your number) from a 25% tax on income to a 9% tax on gross revenue. Since the tax is now on revenue and not profit, then that is a different ballgame.




I don't understand this comment.



>>>>

Due Dilligance
Are you saying that corporations (the consumer) would be paying 9% tax on all gross instead of profit?
I cannot find that
Chris Weigant: Republicans Attack Cain's 9-9-9 Plan
I am not a fan of the post, AT ALL
I google it and this is all that came up (gross instead of profit)

"9% Business Flat Tax
• Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located
businesses, all capital investment, and net exports."​

http://www.hermancain.com/docs/999-for-web-10-12.pdf


Yes, Cain's 9-9-9 taxes "Gross Income" which is "Gross Revenue" with only limited items that don't count towards "Gross Income". Taxing "Gross Income" is much different than taxing "profit".

The tax is applicable whether the company or mom & pop shop is making a "profit" or not.



>>>>

MAJOR difference......gotta watch out for them revenooers....

 

[WorldWatcher]

If the coporate tax is near a record low, then this will fix that
In all relaity your talking a higher corporate tax
they buy, they get taxed also
if a corporation makes a good profit they pay a good tax
Corporate tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
if there loop holing it, this stops it

You seem to be missing an important point when you say "if a corpration makes a good profit they pay a good tax". That's not the way 9-9-9 works as the tax is not based on the company making a good profit, it's based on revenues.

Profit = Revenues - Costs

The difference between taxing "profit" verses "revenues" is huge. Under 9-9-9 there are only limited things that get to be deducted from the revenues for tax purposes and employee costs are not one of them.



>>>>

No I do not get it. To start with the consumer pays all taxes. Are you saying that the 9% will be on gross, or os it on profit?
I cannot find a link that states it would be on gross, that does not make sense

Do you have a link?

See post #24 for a publication on Cain's own website about 9-9-9.


"Gross income" means all monies taken in prior to expenses. Income after expenses is "Net income".



>>>>

 

[NYcarbineer]

Iowa Poll: Many think Cain’s 9-9-9 plan would help them | Iowa Caucuses

I am a huge supporter of tax reform. The left leaning tax policy center of course says no
The people of Iowa say yes according to this poll

What is your opinion?

I'll bet most of the people who took that poll don't understand the math of the plan and thus have no real knowledge of how the plan would affect them.

 

[JRK]

Even if it got through congress...I seriously am not a fan of a national sales tax at all.

It works in Fla and texas for me
at the end of the week in Ga there is about 90 missing from my ck
same in La, SC etc...

 

[JRK]

>

"9% Business Flat Tax
• Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located
businesses, all capital investment, and net exports."​

http://www.hermancain.com/docs/999-for-web-10-12.pdf


This thought just occurred to me, so let me throw it out there to mature.



Since 9-9-9 taxes gross income and not profit, employee wages are not part of what can be deducted. So under 9-9-9 wages and benefits are not "deductible" and the company is taxed on what would have been deductible as an expense.

So I wonder if there will be a new business model which will be an incentive for Company "A" NOT to hire employees, but to hire them from Company "B". For Company "A" that now becomes an deductible expense as "purchases from other U.S. located businesses" are deductible.

Couple that with the idea that there are lots of business that are looking at dropping Health Insurance benefits because of ObamaCare, they are realizing that it is cheaper in the long run to not offer plans, their employees get it through State pools, and they go ahead and pay the $2,000 per employee fine. (BTW - Most employers who offer Health Insurance contribute probably around $10,000 a year to the cost of the premium. 10000-2000 = $8,000 which is a significant savings.)



>>>>

As I confirm, thats stupid. I swear these guys just dont get it
Its about the consumer, we pay all the taxes, we purchase all the goods

The middle class is beat to death now

 

[JRK]

Empowerment Zones will offer deductions for the payroll
of those employed in the zone
not sure what that means, Herman needs to better than this to get my vote

I guess if you hire in Detroit you get a tax break, if you hire from day Florida, you dont

 

[healthmyths]

If you focus only on how the new rates will effect you, you miss the big picture.

His plan would remove so many Imbedded Taxes we pay it's not funny. Sure you will pay 9% sales tax, but the companies that make the products you pay that tax on. Will see a massive drop in taxes they pay providing the Product. Business will be able to make more Profit, while absorbing the 9% and not raising Prices at all. Which is good for us all, Believe it or not.

Then why not simply reduce the corporate tax rate to 18%......?

And how does the country make up for the lose of tax receipts? Cut programs that help the already struggling Middle and poor classes? Right now the Corporate tax revenues are near record lows, despite good profits.

Income Slides to 1996 Levels

"The income of the typical American family—long the envy of much of the world—has dropped for the third year in a row and is now roughly where it was in 1996 when adjusted for inflation.

The income of a household considered to be at the statistical middle fell 2.3% to an inflation-adjusted $49,445 in 2010, which is 7.1% below its 1999 peak, the Census Bureau said."
Household Income Falls, Poverty Rate Rises - WSJ.com

Corporate tax revenues are near record lows, despite good profits.!

AGAIN... I've written several threads AND NO ONE replies or refutes the premise $8 trillion in losses due to dot.com write offs, 9/11 writeoffs, worst hurricane SEASONS write offs... ALL reduced tax receipts by $200B a year starting in 2002 and it's continued!
YET Almost everyone Conservatives included definitely Liberals FORGET this and continue to blame BUSH!
Bush had nothing to do with dot coms but his budgets were affected.
Same with 9/11 and the worst hurricanes in history.. YET NO ONE has every considered the loss of $200 billion a year that if had been not written off would have provided a SURPLUS in 2007,2008! And then the economic bubble would not have been so bad!

Please someone explain away this $8 trillion in losses that are now being written off against taxable income by corporations and individuals alike!

 

[Ravi]

Well, let's see.

Florida sales tax is currently 6% or more depending which county you live in. So adding a 9% national sales tax would mean paying 15% on every purchase to various governments.

Not good.

My business doesn't pay taxes. Under this plan, it would pay 9%.

Not good.

9% payroll tax sounds good but I doubt it makes up for paying higher taxes as described above.

No payroll taxes means no SS or medicare. Which won't be very good for the millions of elderly that paid into the system for most of their lives.

Overall, it's nothing more than a talking point designed to fool the fools.

 

[JRK]

Then why not simply reduce the corporate tax rate to 18%......?

And how does the country make up for the lose of tax receipts? Cut programs that help the already struggling Middle and poor classes? Right now the Corporate tax revenues are near record lows, despite good profits.

Income Slides to 1996 Levels

"The income of the typical American family—long the envy of much of the world—has dropped for the third year in a row and is now roughly where it was in 1996 when adjusted for inflation.

The income of a household considered to be at the statistical middle fell 2.3% to an inflation-adjusted $49,445 in 2010, which is 7.1% below its 1999 peak, the Census Bureau said."
Household Income Falls, Poverty Rate Rises - WSJ.com

Corporate tax revenues are near record lows, despite good profits.!

AGAIN... I've written several threads AND NO ONE replies or refutes the premise $8 trillion in losses due to dot.com write offs, 9/11 writeoffs, worst hurricane SEASONS write offs... ALL reduced tax receipts by $200B a year starting in 2002 and it's continued!
YET Almost everyone Conservatives included definitely Liberals FORGET this and continue to blame BUSH!
Bush had nothing to do with dot coms but his budgets were affected.
Same with 9/11 and the worst hurricanes in history.. YET NO ONE has every considered the loss of $200 billion a year that if had been not written off would have provided a SURPLUS in 2007,2008! And then the economic bubble would not have been so bad!

Please someone explain away this $8 trillion in losses that are now being written off against taxable income by corporations and individuals alike!

I agree with you
we lost 2 million jobs 01-02
we had Enron as well as the power plant bubble busting in 02

It is a miracle it did not get worse, and without tax cuts it would have

 

[JRK]

Well, let's see.

Florida sales tax is currently 6% or more depending which county you live in. So adding a 9% national sales tax would mean paying 15% on every purchase to various governments.

Not good.

My business doesn't pay taxes. Under this plan, it would pay 9%.

Not good.

9% payroll tax sounds good but I doubt it makes up for paying higher taxes as described above.

No payroll taxes means no SS or medicare. Which won't be very good for the millions of elderly that paid into the system for most of their lives.

Overall, it's nothing more than a talking point designed to fool the fools.

why does your business not pay taxes?
In Ga I think the income tax is about 5%, maybe 4
I have worked all over this country, Florida is my home. I love a sales tax

 

[WorldWatcher]

Well, let's see.

Florida sales tax is currently 6% or more depending which county you live in. So adding a 9% national sales tax would mean paying 15% on every purchase to various governments.

Not good.

My business doesn't pay taxes. Under this plan, it would pay 9%.

Not good.

9% payroll tax sounds good but I doubt it makes up for paying higher taxes as described above.

No payroll taxes means no SS or medicare. Which won't be very good for the millions of elderly that paid into the system for most of their lives.

Overall, it's nothing more than a talking point designed to fool the fools.

why does your business not pay taxes?
In Ga I think the income tax is about 5%, maybe 4
I have worked all over this country, Florida is my home. I love a sales tax

Not knowing for sure in regards to this comment, but in general...

Income taxes are paid on income not revenues.

Income (i.e. Profit) = Revenues - Costs.

If the owner of a small business subtracted costs associated from doing business (rent, utilities, salaries for employees, materials, state taxes, etc.) from revenue and had any left over. Then the owner of that small business could then pay themselves the remainder (which then becomes a business expense as employee wages since the owner is paying themselves as an employee).

Taxes are still paid by the owner since their wage is treated as personal income, yet the business on the books shows Revenues - Costs = 0. No income tax liability.


Just thinking.


>>>>

 

[Ravi]

Well, let's see.

Florida sales tax is currently 6% or more depending which county you live in. So adding a 9% national sales tax would mean paying 15% on every purchase to various governments.

Not good.

My business doesn't pay taxes. Under this plan, it would pay 9%.

Not good.

9% payroll tax sounds good but I doubt it makes up for paying higher taxes as described above.

No payroll taxes means no SS or medicare. Which won't be very good for the millions of elderly that paid into the system for most of their lives.

Overall, it's nothing more than a talking point designed to fool the fools.

why does your business not pay taxes?
In Ga I think the income tax is about 5%, maybe 4
I have worked all over this country, Florida is my home. I love a sales tax

Because it's an s corporation.

So you are okay with paying a 15% sales tax?

Jeez, I have a hard enough time convincing my customers to pay 6%.

 

[Ravi]

Well, let's see.

Florida sales tax is currently 6% or more depending which county you live in. So adding a 9% national sales tax would mean paying 15% on every purchase to various governments.

Not good.

My business doesn't pay taxes. Under this plan, it would pay 9%.

Not good.

9% payroll tax sounds good but I doubt it makes up for paying higher taxes as described above.

No payroll taxes means no SS or medicare. Which won't be very good for the millions of elderly that paid into the system for most of their lives.

Overall, it's nothing more than a talking point designed to fool the fools.

why does your business not pay taxes?
In Ga I think the income tax is about 5%, maybe 4
I have worked all over this country, Florida is my home. I love a sales tax

Not knowing for sure in regards to this comment, but in general...

Income taxes are paid on income not revenues.

Income (i.e. Profit) = Revenues - Costs.

If the owner of a small business subtracted costs associated from doing business (rent, utilities, salaries for employees, materials, state taxes, etc.) from revenue and had any left over. Then the owner of that small business could then pay themselves the remainder (which then becomes a business expense as employee wages since the owner is paying themselves as an employee).

Taxes are still paid by the owner since their wage is treated as personal income, yet the business on the books shows Revenues - Costs = 0. No income tax liability.


Just thinking.


>>>>

If the business paid 9% business tax and the owner paid 9% income tax that would be an 18% tax, no? Under Cain's plan, I mean.

 

[FactFinder]

Would Cains 9-9-9 help you?


I don't know.

Maybe his 909 plan would or
his 099 plan or
his 900 plan.

Maybe next month 8 will be in vogue.

Hold on let me consult Marketing.

 

[Ravi]

Would Cains 9-9-9 help you?


I don't know.

Maybe his 909 plan would or
his 099 plan or
his 900 plan.

Maybe next month 8 will be in vogue.

Hold on let me consult Marketing.

Is Herman a member of the 9 inch club?