"Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?

[TheGreatGatsby]

Seriously?

I think you can answer the first question well enough yourself, can't you?

In some contexts it may make sense to compare Mexico or Russia with the US, but obviously a dozen better points of comparison exist - Canada, Australia, Germany, France, Italy, the UK, Spain, Japan, South Korea or even Holland all have much more in common with the US than Russia does.

Neither Russia or Mexico are even close to being war zones.

Actually, with the war that the country is having with the drug cartels, much of the larger cities of Mexico (especially around the border with the U.S.) are in fact very much like war zones.

There's gang wars in Chicago, LA, NY, Detroit, Oakland, etc. They "are in fact very much like war zones."

 

[Saigon]

There's gang wars in Chicago, LA, NY, Detroit, Oakland, etc. They "are in fact very much like war zones."

There are, definitely.

Luckily, ay the moment my sense is that those 'wars' are more localised than what we see in places like Russia or Mexico, where entire cities and provinces are effectively governed and controlled by gangs.

I really don't think there is a single poster on this forum who honestly thinks a city like New York has more in common with Odessa, Yekaterinburg or Tallin than it does with London, Paris or Berlin.

It's just the only way that the debate can be skewed to make the US look better than somewhere, anywhere.

QW -

Thus far you have presented no facts, no evidence nor even cogent statements. You rarely do. If showering people with abuse counted as building a case, you'd 'win' every thread, but as it is you really are one of the weakest posters on the forum.

Put together a rational comment of question, and I will respond to it. Anything else gets ignored.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Saigon let's break down the numbers for non firearm homicides in America.

Knives or cutting instruments 1,704
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) 540
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 745
Poison 11
Explosives 4
Fire 74
Narcotics 39
Drowning 10
Strangulation 122
Asphyxiation 98
Other weapons or weapons not stated 874
EconomicPolicyJournal.com: How People Are Murdered in the United States
And if you doubt that source
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

It looks like murders dropped in 2010, that was when a lot of guns were being sold at a record pace.

 

[TemplarKormac]

To answer this question frankly, no.

To ban something, you have to confiscate it. To confiscate it you would need a registry of people who owned the contraband, after that you would need to, like I said before, confiscate it by forcefully taking it from the owner. You know what? If our government ever resorts to such treachery, there will indeed be an armed revolt, one of the likes we have never seen since the Revolutionary War.

If you ban something, you only encourage people to want it even more. Look at the drug trade for example.

 

[Saigon]

BigReb -

There are two factors worth considering here -

Firstly, that someone owning 8 guns is probably no more likely to kill someone than a person who owns 4 guns - so people basically stockpiling weapons won't push the homicide rate up.

We know that the % of American households containing guns has fallen over the past 20 years - THAT is why your homicide rate has fallen.

The fact that households that do containguns now contain more guns is probably not a big factor.

Secondly, homicide rates don't rise and fall on a weekly basis depending on changes in gun control legislation. They tend to be gradual, incremental shifts.

When the UK introduced gun control, the homicide rate briefly spiked before falling to such an extent that they now have less homicides than at any point since 1983. So we need to look at longer periods of time than this year vs last year.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

BigReb -

There are two factors worth considering here -

Firstly, that someone owning 8 guns is probably no more likely to kill someone than a person who owns 4 guns - so people basically stockpiling weapons won't push the homicide rate up.

We know that the % of American households containing guns has fallen over the past 20 years - THAT is why your homicide rate has fallen.

The fact that households that do containguns now contain more guns is probably not a big factor.

Secondly, homicide rates don't rise and fall on a weekly basis depending on changes in gun control legislation. They tend to be gradual, incremental shifts.

When the UK introduced gun control, the homicide rate briefly spiked before falling to such an extent that they now have less homicides than at any point since 1983. So we need to look at longer periods of time than this year vs last year.

FIRST
There is no such thing as WE when it comes to you and what happens in America
I was addressing non firearm homicides.

 

[Saigon]

I was addressing non firearm homicides.

Ok...what is your point or question?

 

[Skull Pilot]

In 2011 fists and feet killed twice as many people as did rifles.

People will kill each other no matter what.

The question is do you want to be defenseless when someone decides to kill you?

 

[Saigon]

In 2011 fists and feet killed twice as many people as did rifles.

Really?

Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 745

In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicide deaths, and 11,078 firearm-related homicide deaths in the United States.

 

[Skull Pilot]

In 2011 fists and feet killed twice as many people as did rifles.

Really?

Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 745

In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicide deaths, and 11,078 firearm-related homicide deaths in the United States.

Suicides don't count as there is no victim.

And you'll notice i said rifles.

The simple truth is that people will kill each other no matter what.

The question is do you want to be defenseless when someone decides to kill you?

 

[Saigon]

And you'll notice i said rifles.

Do deaths by handguns not count as firearms deaths?!

The question is do you want to be defenseless when someone decides to kill you?

That is the question in a society flooded with guns.

Elsewhere, the question is - do you want the person who decides to kill you to be defenceless?

In countries with safety-based laws, no normal person needs a gun to feel safe.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And you'll notice i said rifles.

Do deaths by handguns not count as firearms deaths?!

The question is do you want to be defenseless when someone decides to kill you?

That is the question in a society flooded with guns.

Elsewhere, the question is - do you want the person who decides to kill you to be defenceless?

In countries with safety-based laws, no normal person needs a gun to feel safe.

Sorry but if there is violent crime in a country

And there is violent crime in every country

Then I'll want the means to protect myself.

If you don't that's your choice.

 

[Saigon]

Skull Pilot -

There is violent crime in every country, but in most countries the perpetrator is unarmed, and thus unlikely to do a lot of damage.

This is an easy enough to think to get a handle on - how many mass shootings have there been in the US in the past 5 years, and how many in Germany?

 

[eflatminor]

There is violent crime in every country, but in most countries the perpetrator is unarmed, and thus unlikely to do a lot of damage.

You should tell that to the Rwandans. Perhaps the families of the hundreds of thousands murdered without the use of firearms would take comfort in your words...

 

[Saigon]

Eflatminor -

As a journalist, I covered Rwanda. It doesn't have a lot in common with the US. Even in Africa, the events there are without parallel...most African rebels prefer the AK.

How many people were killed in your neighbourhood with machetes last year?

 

[eflatminor]

Eflatminor -

As a journalist, I covered Rwanda. It doesn't have a lot in common with the US. Even in Africa, the events there are without parallel...most African rebels prefer the AK.

How many people were killed in your neighbourhood with machetes last year?

According to the FBI, 1694 were killed with edged weapons in 2011 in the US.

Point is, I don't give a crap HOW someone harms, or attempts to harm another. It's not your place to determine how I get to defend myself, no matter how sure you are that you know what's best for everyone else.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Skull Pilot -

There is violent crime in every country, but in most countries the perpetrator is unarmed, and thus unlikely to do a lot of damage.

This is an easy enough to think to get a handle on - how many mass shootings have there been in the US in the past 5 years, and how many in Germany?

Unarmed?

Knives, baseball bats, pipes, 2 by 4s, steel toed boots, billy clubs, etc ad infinitum.....

The question is do you want to be defenseless when you are attacked by an "unarmed" thug with a bat?

 

[eflatminor]

The question is do you want to be defenseless when you are attacked by an "unarmed" thug with a bat?

I respect his right to cower in the corner of a 'gun free zone' and wait for someone else to save his butt. He should respect mine to choose to not be a victim. If I've not done anything to hurt nor take from another, it's not his business.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The question is do you want to be defenseless when you are attacked by an "unarmed" thug with a bat?

I respect his right to cower in the corner of a 'gun free zone' and wait for someone else to save his butt. He should respect mine to choose to not be a victim. If I've not done anything to hurt nor take from another, it's not his business.

That is the only point I am trying to make.

Just because one person wants to be defenseless does not mean we can all be forced to be defenseless.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Thus far you have presented no facts, no evidence nor even cogent statements. You rarely do. If showering people with abuse counted as building a case, you'd 'win' every thread, but as it is you really are one of the weakest posters on the forum.

Put together a rational comment of question, and I will respond to it. Anything else gets ignored.

I presented an entire study filled with facts from multiple studies that show that murder and suicide rates are not impacted by gun control. You responded with a chart that talked about gun homicides, and ignored the fact that we are not talking about gun homicides, we are talking about all homicides. Get back to me when you figure out what the discussion is about before you try to demand that I meet your childish standards of discourse.