Wind and Hot Air..

Discussion in 'Energy' started by flacaltenn, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Recently, there was a claim on USMB about the Loess Wind Turbine field allowing a Mo. city to be one of the first to be TOTALLY WIND POWERED. That's a pretty heady claim considering the nature of the daily production from wind farms. You can GENERATE enough energy over a year's time to EQUAL the power requirements for that city -- But you can't literally power the city from the wind farm without almost total replication of the baseline power resource. IE -- having a redundant backup of some type to rely on.

    Here's typical daily production from a WELL-PLACED Danish Wind Farm..

    [​IMG]

    The RATED capacity for this group of turbines is 480,000 KWhrs per day. Note how infrequently the field hits the EXPECTED value of 160,000 KWhrs per day. Also note how looking at production on a DAILY basis virtually destroys the concept of "powering a city" from wind energy alone.

    It gets even worse when you look at HOURLY production or MINUTE by MINUTE production.. SURE -- you might be able to accomodate these fluctuations and eek out some peaking potential for the grid. But let's not OVERSELL the utility of this as an "alternative" to anything. We don't power our computers with energy scavenged and averaged over a year. We power them with second by second grid loads.

    Here's the general information for this field:

    Monthly production | Middelgrundens Vindmøllelaug

    You can follow the production of this wind turbine farm on a minute to minute basis at:

    http://www.middelgrund.com/

    Before you make claims for how wind can be used as an ALTERNATIVE --- you might want to check the link and see how they're doing up in Denmark..
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
  2. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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  3. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    No one interested in Wind as an "alternative"?

    I thought wind had a huge fan club. :thanks:

    Guess we can just scratch that one off the list of alternatives along with geothermal and hydro...
     
  4. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Wind is Going, Going GONE

    No DEFENDERS???

    -- because the windy jig is almost up.

    Wind and Solar Subsidies Drying Up In Europe


    And maybe some explanation for the "no-confidence" votes on subsidies..


    Danish Wind Subsidies to be Cut

    Maybe it's got something to do with a source that's there for an hour and gone for a day or two.... That's NOT an alternative..
     
  5. sparky
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    sparky VIP Member

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    First off, the article i posted said 1300 residents

    2ndly subsides and tax breaks drying up do not a failure make

    3rd , i'm a hands on type of fella flatone, and a master electrican with a rapport in alt energy as long as your arm. Granted, i've hooked up no cities to windmills , but i've seen what works for grid tie and stand alone residential systems

    That said, I'm not about to argue with not wits waving whatever oilocracy propaganda looking to pick a fight over what they know so little of , and are so biased about , it would take YEARS for them to come up any appreciable speed of tolerable debate

    You want to engage in that avenue, may i suggest you join a professional alt energy forum, where you may merrily scream your meager ascii brains out for any takers

    regards

    ~S~

     
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    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  6. daveman
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    daveman Diamond Member

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    The wind-breakers haven't gotten their marching orders yet.
     
  7. sparky
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    sparky VIP Member

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    may the green machine make you an offer you can't refuse ,if you're still looking for a job Dave
     
  8. SFC Ollie
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    SFC Ollie Still Marching

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    From the title I thought this was just going to be about Washington in general, carry on....
     
  9. daveman
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    daveman Diamond Member

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    Yeah. Can you offer any refutation of the OP other than "That's STUpid!!"?

    I've got experience in power generation, from 3kW portable units to 12MW plants. And if the capacity doesn't meet load demand, you better come up with another source of amps right quick, or the customers are going to be pissed. Platitudes about "saving the Earth" aren't going to take their minds off their cold showers and no air conditioning.
     
  10. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Dear Sparky...

    I've been doing this for 20 years. I HAVE been in professional forums (is IEEE OK with you?) and I know you have been involved as well. I wouldn't call it bias. I'd call it analysis and logic and reason.

    You see those daily production charts don't even begin to qualify wind turbines as an "alternative" to our current baseline generation methods. SURE -- if you can figure out how to react and plan a large grid load with sources that are there for 15 or 20 minutes at a time --- have at it .. If you can figure out how to use that energy to create a buffer fuel like hydrogen or hydropower -- have at it..

    But it's time to blow off (pun intended) any pretense that this technology is an "alternative" capable of providing constant reliable power. And we need to figure out exactly where it DOES fit..

    Europe IS backing off of their commitment to wind. And I don't think it's JUST because the economy currently sucks.. We need to get serious about what remains on the "alternatives" list...
     

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