Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Flopper]

We aren't discussing "immigrants." We're discussing illegal aliens. Douchebags like you always like to blur the distinction between the two.

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

That is far to straight forward and inexpensive. Trump wants us to spend about 30 billion dollars to build a wall that migrants will just go around or over while half of them will continue to enter the country through ports of entry. I don't think Trump gives a gives damn about the effectiveness of the wall, as long as it get's build He can then claim he has saved America and fulfilled his campaign promise.

 

[Skylar]

The only reason democrats did not reform immigration law when they had the chance was because it was a low priority item with the public. The only people really interested in immigration were racists whose goal was the supremacy of the white majority.

Trump of course has created an immigration crisis where none exist. So when democrats get the opportunity, they are going to have to go after immigration law.

They didn't do anything because it was going in their favor. Young male men who could fight for their country, kids, pregnant women all came here and got in under Catch and Release. So the Democrats are going to have to do something (if they ever gain full power again) because Trump is doing what he can to solve this problem. The anti-white party doesn't want the problem solved, they want it to grow.

When democrats took control of goverment in 2008, immigration was a non-issue for most Americans. It was healthcare and the economy and that is what democrats focused on.

Thanks to Donald Trump he has created a crisis in immigration where none exist. If democrats have sufficient control of government in 2020, there will be real immigration reform. It could come in the next two years with a democratic House. Both democrats and republicans in congress agree on a number immigration issues and Donald's only real interest in immigration is building a wall. Democrats will be willing to give Trump his wall for the right kind of immigration bill.

No they will not. Piglosi said it herself, the wall is totally off the table. Nothing is being traded for it.

Immigration has always been a problem. Perhaps you on the left could care less, but for the rest of us, a real problem. Donald Trump didn't create a problem, he addressed the problem. In fact that's what led to his victory against Hil-Liar. Every other candidate spoke the same way about illegals. Blah, blah, blah, Blah, blah, blah. Only Trump was transcending in what he said. He told us what we wanted to hear: We are going to stop illegals from entering this country. We will build a wall. And that's why in light of our congressional loss, Trump is addressing the issue much more seriously.

There are far more affordable, faster, and more effective methods: Make E-Verify mandatory and put some teeth in it.

Illegal immigrant focused enforcement is stupid. Illegals are numerous, numbering in the tens of millions. They move. We don't know where they live. They may or may not be using their own names. And if we deport them, they can come back.

Use employer based focus.....the same way we focus our drug enforcement policy not on the users, but on the sellers and distributors. Employers make far more sense. They're public, they generally don't move, they're easy to find (most advertise!), they use their real names, and they're far less numerous.

Make the use of E-verify mandatory. Give any employer that doesn't use it 1 year in prison....including HR people and Hiring Managers. If an employer uses E-Verify and a perspective employee passes...and are later found to be illegal, the employer is free and clear. Employers only get in trouble if they don't use E-Verify.

The system already exists, is easy to use....so there's no ramp up or roll out. It takes a few minutes per employee and can be done online or over the phone. Merely make it mandatory, put some teeth behind it and give employers a 6 month grace period to bring their employees into compliance. You'd need a few dozen high profile prosecutions before employers got the message....and jobs for illegals dried up.

In comparison to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. With no work, they'll largely deport themselves. You could have the vast majority of the illegal immigration problem fixed in about a year. It would work and work well.

Utter horseshit. All your claims have been refuted in this forum 1000 times. The wall has been proven the most effective method for controlling illegal immigration.

Nope. And no, it hasn't.

A wall actually increases illegal immigration by making it more expensive to cross the border. Before a wall immigrants would come here, earn money, and then go home. There were entire seasonal work forces that would arrive from Mexico, help bring in a harvest of a particular crop, earn some money and go home. And come back the next year for the next harvest season.

Now people have to work for years to pay back the cost of crossing the border. Meaning they have to stay longer. And when they stay longer, they have more kids here, there is less incentive for them to go home.

Worse, about a third of illegals are folks who merely overstayed visas. Which walls do nothing to prevent.

Walls are expensive to make expensive to buy land for and even more expensive to maintain. They can be circumvented by anyone who really wants to. To quote Trump's own chief of staff,

"the bottom line is the fence doesn't stop anybody who really wants to get across. You go under, you go around, you go through it. And that's what the ranchers tell us, is that they don't need a fence."

Mick Mulvaney

Mick Mulvaney in 2015: Trump's views on border wall 'simplistic,' 'absurd and almost childish' - CNNPolitics

Nor does the fence keep them from coming back.

The E-Verify system works on all of those fronts. It eliminates the work that illegals come here for, or those overstaying their visas require in order to stay here. Compared to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. Stripped of the means of making a living, most would go home where its far cheaper.

The wall is orders of magnitude MORE expensive, takes years to build, is wildly expensive to maintain, is ineffective, doesn't address 1/3 or illegal immigrants at all, and actually increases the incentive for them to stay once they've arrived. Its a stupid proposal.

E-Verify is orders of magnitude LESS expensive, it is already in place, its maintenance costs are minimal (a website, phone line and paperwork), its very effective, it DOES address the 1/3 of illegal immigrants that the wall ignores, and it REDUCES the incentive for illegals to stay here. Its a smart proposal.

 

[Skylar]

Look to the facts from a study, on the cost burdens surrounding illegal immigrants.

“At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.”

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

This is about (1) enforcement of CURRENT Federal Immigration Laws through deportation and ICE,

(2) an amnesty decision during the Reagan administration with the promise of strict border enforcement that never happened. In fact that amnesty decision only made the immigration problem WORSE not better with a larger amount of illegals in our country that we must deal with.

(3) A flow of violent MS-13 gangs, the report of repeat offender illegals that don’t get deported or reported to ICE

(4) sex trafficking coming in from our southern neighbor.

Perhaps you aren’t willing to take these issues seriously.


Interesting to note how democrats blame the increase of violent crime deaths among the most STRICT of cities ... like California, Maryland, and Michigan ... on filtering weapons from neighboring states. Yet these same liberal democrats will throw their support behind open borders with Mexico.

Who is supporting an open border with Mexico? You're citing California. Show us Governor Brown advocating an open border.

You can't. You're not citing 'liberal democrats'. You're citing yourself AS liberal democrats.

That's the same thing, is it?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Look to the facts from a study, on the cost burdens surrounding illegal immigrants.

“At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.”

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

It's hilarious that you read the mental midgetry of some of these build the wall guys and they are ALWAYS quoting liberals and promoting communist nations in support of their talking points... All the while calling others lefties. You can't make this stuff up.

You actually think Greece, Turkey, Macedonia, and India are communist nations? Care to try that again?

Actually ... I always found it interesting when you have liberals that are so opposed to building the wall, throwing their support for an open border. Yet, when you inform the left that strict gun regulations simply does not work to lower gun violence in cities like Detroit or Baltimore, they then blame how easy it is for criminals to transport guns across the border. Talk about a paradox, I don’t believe the left has actually taken the time to completely think this through.

 

[Flopper]

We aren't discussing "immigrants." We're discussing illegal aliens. Douchebags like you always like to blur the distinction between the two.

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed. The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need legal immigrants today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

You mentioned feeding the families at home. For central Americans cleaning out the Northern Triangle and making the area a safe place to live would eliminate most of the those seeking asylum. It might even save us money. They aren't looking for food or handouts. Most of them have jobs and earn a living. They just need a safe environment where the violent crime rate in not 25 times greater than ours and kidnapping rate is not 80 times greater.

 

[sealybobo]

We aren't discussing "immigrants." We're discussing illegal aliens. Douchebags like you always like to blur the distinction between the two.

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Look to the facts from a study, on the cost burdens surrounding illegal immigrants.

“At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.”

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

This is about (1) enforcement of CURRENT Federal Immigration Laws through deportation and ICE,

(2) an amnesty decision during the Reagan administration with the promise of strict border enforcement that never happened. In fact that amnesty decision only made the immigration problem WORSE not better with a larger amount of illegals in our country that we must deal with.

(3) A flow of violent MS-13 gangs, the report of repeat offender illegals that don’t get deported or reported to ICE

(4) sex trafficking coming in from our southern neighbor.

Perhaps you aren’t willing to take these issues seriously.


Interesting to note how democrats blame the increase of violent crime deaths among the most STRICT of cities ... like California, Maryland, and Michigan ... on filtering weapons from neighboring states. Yet these same liberal democrats will throw their support behind open borders with Mexico.

Who is supporting an open border with Mexico? You're citing California. Show us Governor Brown advocating an open border.

You can't. You're not citing 'liberal democrats'. You're citing yourself AS liberal democrats.

That's the same thing, is it?

California does not advocate bringing those they discover as “illegal” to the knowledge of Federal authorities .. or ICE. California protects illegals over following established Federal Immigration Laws, that have been passed through a legislation process and signed into law. California also fines companies who bring the knowledge of illegals to Federal authorities. Are you that uninformed of the facts?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Look to the facts from a study, on the cost burdens surrounding illegal immigrants.

“At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.”

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

It's hilarious that you read the mental midgetry of some of these build the wall guys and they are ALWAYS quoting liberals and promoting communist nations in support of their talking points... All the while calling others lefties. You can't make this stuff up.

You actually think Greece, Turkey, Macedonia, and India are communist nations? Care to try that again?

Actually ... I always found it interesting when you have liberals that are so opposed to building the wall, throwing their support for an open border. Yet, when you inform the left that strict gun regulations simply does not work to lower gun violence in cities like Detroit or Baltimore, they then blame how easy it is for criminals to transport guns across the border. Talk about a paradox, I don’t believe the left has actually taken the time to completely think this through.

For what reason did those countries put up a wall?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We aren't discussing "immigrants." We're discussing illegal aliens. Douchebags like you always like to blur the distinction between the two.

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

 

[McRocket]

Nothing.

But thinking that simply building a wall higher is going to noticeably slow down illegal immigration is ridiculous.

 

[Skylar]

We aren't discussing "immigrants." We're discussing illegal aliens. Douchebags like you always like to blur the distinction between the two.

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

That's one of the reasons I focus on E-Verify.

 

[Skylar]

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

This is about (1) enforcement of CURRENT Federal Immigration Laws through deportation and ICE,

(2) an amnesty decision during the Reagan administration with the promise of strict border enforcement that never happened. In fact that amnesty decision only made the immigration problem WORSE not better with a larger amount of illegals in our country that we must deal with.

(3) A flow of violent MS-13 gangs, the report of repeat offender illegals that don’t get deported or reported to ICE

(4) sex trafficking coming in from our southern neighbor.

Perhaps you aren’t willing to take these issues seriously.


Interesting to note how democrats blame the increase of violent crime deaths among the most STRICT of cities ... like California, Maryland, and Michigan ... on filtering weapons from neighboring states. Yet these same liberal democrats will throw their support behind open borders with Mexico.

Who is supporting an open border with Mexico? You're citing California. Show us Governor Brown advocating an open border.

You can't. You're not citing 'liberal democrats'. You're citing yourself AS liberal democrats.

That's the same thing, is it?

California does not advocate bringing those they discover as “illegal” to the knowledge of Federal authorities .. or ICE. California protects illegals over following established Federal Immigration Laws, that have been passed through a legislation process and signed into law. California also fines companies who bring the knowledge of illegals to Federal authorities. Are you that uninformed of the facts?

That's not advocating an open border. In fact, nothing you cited even mentioned the border.

Again, you're not citing 'liberal democrats' on an open border with Mexico. You're citing yourself.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We aren't discussing "immigrants." We're discussing illegal aliens. Douchebags like you always like to blur the distinction between the two.

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed. The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need legal immigrants today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

You mentioned feeding the families at home. For central Americans cleaning out the Northern Triangle and making the area a safe place to live would eliminate most of the those seeking asylum. It might even save us money. They aren't looking for food or handouts. Most of them have jobs and earn a living. They just need a safe environment where the violent crime rate in not 25 times greater than ours and kidnapping rate is not 80 times greater.

The workforce is not going to shrink in this country. In fact in the next 20 years or so, less and less manual labor will be needed because of the continuous advancement in automation. It's taking place at grocery stores, in hospitals and clinics, and yes, fast food restaurants where people with zero skills were able to get a job. Did you ever ask yourself what are we going to do with all the cab and Uber drivers once we have driverless cars? Do you know how many people we are talking here?

And those are just a few industries I listed. As wages increase and automation because less expensive, many of our blue collar people will find themselves without the ability to get a job.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

That's one of the reasons I focus on E-Verify.

We should focus on everything; not just one avenue. If we stuck together to do all we can to stop illegal immigration, it would be stopped. However like everything else, it comes down to power and politics.

 

[Billo_Really]

The CIA played no part in overthrowing the government, asshole. If they aren't communists, Chileans love the CIA.

So you go the extra mile of putting up a wall between you and the truth.

 

[Pogo]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

Why is posting a picture of a Klan march on wet trolley tracks in Wisconsin in December and claiming it's the Democratic convention in New York the previous summer wrong?

 

[Skylar]

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

That's one of the reasons I focus on E-Verify.

We should focus on everything; not just one avenue. If we stuck together to do all we can to stop illegal immigration, it would be stopped. However like everything else, it comes down to power and politics.

Start with the least expensive, most immediate and most effective solutions FIRST. E-Verify hits all those marks. Its ready right now, its very inexpensive, and it works. It also addresses a huge source of illegal immigrants; those who have overstayed their visas.

The wall....is expensive, slow, ineffective, and doesn't even address a full third of llegal immigration. Its a stupid policy. And the one the president is leading with.

 

[Billo_Really]

It isn't possible for that to be a lie, moron. It's an opinion, and it's far more credible than yours. The theory that foreigners have a right to emigrate here couldn't be more idiotic.

WTF are you talking about? This country was founded by emigrating foreigners. As an American, we believe in the rule of law. Requesting asylum is codified in international law. Not respecting the law, is not being an American.

 

[bripat9643]

Look to the facts from a study, on the cost burdens surrounding illegal immigrants.

“At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion.”

So let's fix that. And let's do it without indulging the shackles of big government.

The problems we have are the welfare state and birth-right citizenship. Neither of those requires the Berlin wall.

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

This is about (1) enforcement of CURRENT Federal Immigration Laws through deportation and ICE,

(2) an amnesty decision during the Reagan administration with the promise of strict border enforcement that never happened. In fact that amnesty decision only made the immigration problem WORSE not better with a larger amount of illegals in our country that we must deal with.

(3) A flow of violent MS-13 gangs, the report of repeat offender illegals that don’t get deported or reported to ICE

(4) sex trafficking coming in from our southern neighbor.

Perhaps you aren’t willing to take these issues seriously.


Interesting to note how democrats blame the increase of violent crime deaths among the most STRICT of cities ... like California, Maryland, and Michigan ... on filtering weapons from neighboring states. Yet these same liberal democrats will throw their support behind open borders with Mexico.

Who is supporting an open border with Mexico? You're citing California. Show us Governor Brown advocating an open border.

You can't. You're not citing 'liberal democrats'. You're citing yourself AS liberal democrats.

That's the same thing, is it?

You're supporting an open border with Mexico, douchebag. You keep opposing doing anything that would actually work.

 

[Flopper]

You're an idiot. It's been legal to use force against trespassers for 250 years.

Ray is the most disrespectful person on this board. You are the most ignorant. Calling people names is a testament to your character.

The fact is, it is YOUR fault that the courts put people just like you in prison and then declared that undocumented have civil rights - and those civil rights trumped those who think just like you.

If people had a Right to protect private property, all private property along the border would be being protected by civilian militias.

You're a certifiable idiot. People have a right to use force to protect their property. The fact is irrefutable. I have personally had a shotgun pointed in my direction by a rancher because we were on his land.

Debating you is a waste of time because so much of what you believe just isn't true.

Most states don't recognize the use of lethal force for mere trespassing. Deadly force in the defense of one's life is permitted. Deadly force in defense of property alone generally isn't. Most uses of lethal force must be in response to reasonable fear of serious, imminent bodily harm to oneself or others

I didn't use the term "lethal force." However, in many states, if someone breaks into your home, you are allowed to blow them away. You are allowed to use force against trespassers.

Not 'any place'. But one's home specifically. You couldn't, for example, shoot someone on your lawn without a reasonable fear of serious, imminent bodily harm to one's self or others.

Trying to shift that to the use of deadly force on the border when someone is trying to enter the country.....would be poorly supported legally.

There're a number places in world where deadly force is used by individuals and the government to prevent border crossing. Many of these people making crossing are armed and dangerous, often criminals and terrorist. Most of the people attempting illegal crossings of our southern border are not terrorists are even criminals. They're people seeking a safe haven and chance to make a living wage. They would certainly enter legally if they could. However for most of these countries getting into the US without having family in the US is nearly impossible. In some cases the wait can be years even if you have family in the US.