Why I Am Not A Christian

[Madeline]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

So in no special order of importance, here's a list of the reasons I am not a Christian. I am hoping someone who is can address any of them and we can dialogue.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

 

[syrenn]

The question I always love to ponder is " thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" does that mean I can covet my neighbors husband?

 

[rdean]

The reason I'm not is because I have no "mystical" beliefs. Casper was NEVER "real".

 

[JW Frogen]

The question I always love to ponder is " thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" does that mean I can covet my neighbors husband?

As a married man I for one say, covet away!!!!

I like to eat my sin and virtue too.

 

[Madeline]

I can believe God exists, but I cannot believe in an After-Life. Dead is dead. Finito. The notion that you can live an evil life and still get into Heaven because you know the magic words is so preposterous to me I can hardly believe that anyone buys it. And the notion of "saving people after they have died" is ridiculous. If there is no personal responsibility then we are all savages.

 

[JW Frogen]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. ]

I find that very interesting, if I am not intruding Ms. Madeline may I ask how did you go from one end of the human condition to the other? From the sincerely secular to the securely fanatic.

And I am sincerely sorry to hear about the demise of your parents when you were obviously so young.

 

[syrenn]

I am always confused and intrigued about the catholic idea of living in poverty.

If living in the Vatican is living in poverty, please may I have some?

 

[JW Frogen]

If living in the Vatican is living in poverty, please may I have some? [/COLOR]

I used to live in Italy, and visited the Vatican museums perhaps 30 times.

Let me tell you, those Raphael Stanzas get old.

It drove me to Jackson Pollack and the bottle.

 

[syrenn]

If living in the Vatican is living in poverty, please may I have some? [/COLOR]

I used to live in Italy, and visited the Vatican museums perhaps 30 times.

Let me tell you, those Raphael Stanzas get old.

It drove me to Jackson Pollack and the bottle.

That may be but the swiss guard hunks sure don't get old.

 

[Madeline]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. ]

I find that very interesting, if I am not intruding Ms. Madeline may I ask how did you go from one end human condition of the the other? From the sincerely secular to the securely fanatic.

And I am sincerely sorry to hear about the demise of your parents when you were obviously so young.

I dunno what altered my life so much. I think it was education. My folks were teachers and they prized it, so I went to college with no more than a second's thought (o good, I don't have to waitress full time).

IMO, one of the things condemning the young of this country is the elimination of GI Bill style benefits that included paying for the college education of children of the military, and the various other inroads onto the "level playing field" that once existed here to allow bright but poor people to change their lives.

 

[JW Frogen]

That may be but the swiss guard hunks sure don't get old.

You are hot for the Leonardo pantaloons!

 

[JW Frogen]

IMO, one of the things condemning the young of this country is the elimination of GI BIll style benefits that included paying for the college education of children of the military, and the various other inroads onto the "level playing field" that once existed here to allow bright but poor people to change their lives.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

I agree, the GI bill of rights changed America, set it on a path away from oligarchy and toward real meritocracy. (The military granted me the Uni education I have had.)

But always remember, you really can't ascend Mount Everest on a level playing field.

The field will never be level, and those born at the top of the mountain rarely appreciate the view.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I will give it a try, but I am probably going to surprise you, and piss quite a few people off at the same time.

1. Who said God is omnipotent?

2. Where did Jesus promise to make things better? The only thing he promised was strife and to turn our families against us if we listen to him. Which is why most people prefer to listen to their preachers and have their ears tickled.

3. The holy spirit is the breath of God, nothing more, nothing less. That makes it the source of all life, so it is actually keeping you alive.

4. I agree, and so did Jesus. Don't blame him because some people adapted a pagan teaching and shoehorned it into the Bible.

5. Again, don't blame Jesus for this. Peter was married, and Catholics claim he was the first pope.

6. It isn't, and anyone who claims otherwise should be put roasted over a very large fire very slowly.

7. Again, this is people misunderstanding the purpose of prayer. Prayer brings you closer to God, and strengthens you to face whatever is happening in your life.

8. I don't have to reconcile it, they were all wrong.

9. I am responsible, entirely, for my own decisions. Succumbing to temptation and blaming the devil for it is a bit like Obama blaming Bush for the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico, childish and irresponsible. None of that means the Devil is not real, and that he does not get his kicks out of trying to make you fuck up. Think of it like putting a drink in front of an alcoholic, if they drink it is their fault, but that does not mean you are entirely free and clear.

10. The promise of heaven isn't there to help us know what is right, it is there so that when we do what is right, and suffer the consequences, we can take comfort.

 

[Madeline]

The RCC has a great deal of irrationality, syrenn. I don't understand how the Pope can sit in a room full of priceless masterpieces when he knows that people all over the world are ill or hungry or suffering. Why not auction off the Sistine Chapel etc. and feed the poor?

Benedict has covered himself in glory, though we've had other terrible Popes. I think Benedict's finest moment so far was his speech on the evils of using condoms. Apparently he is unconcerned about the death rate from AIDS in Africa and elsewhere.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So what I'm hearing here is - correct me if I'm wrong - "I'm not a Christian because some people who happened to be church officials ACTUALLY EXPECTED ME TO RESPECT AUTHORITY FIGURES!!" The horror of it all, being expected as a child to respect one's elders and those in authority over you. And, of course, that NEVER happens to children outside of a church environment. Certainly, secular schools don't ever expect kids to be respectful of authority.

Then, further, what I'm hearing is "I got answers to my questions, but I didn't like them, so that means THEY WEREN'T ANSWERS!!" Have I got that right? It's not that there weren't any answers. It's that she decided they didn't suit her. One wonders if Mad would declare mathematics nonexistent if she decided that 4 pissed her off as the answer to 2+2.

Seems to me that the problem here is less that Christianity isn't measuring up than that Mad just has an attitude problem and expects the universe to adjust itself around her, and summarily rejects the existence and validity of anything that doesn't immediately fit the way SHE has decided the universe is going to be.

Oh, while we're demanding answers to snotty, insincere questions, perhaps someone can answer a snotty, completely sincere question for me: WHY, precisely, are we supposed to try to justify our beliefs to someone who can't even be bothered to respect them enough to ask polite, sincere questions about them? Mad thinks Christianity is bullshit. I think her atheism is bullshit. The only difference is, I don't feel the need to start a whole thread just to TELL her how full of shit I consider her to be.

 

[GWV5903]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

So in no special order of importance, here's a list of the reasons I am not a Christian. I am hoping someone who is can address any of them and we can dialogue.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

My strength comes thru the relationship with him, and it is free.....

Do you not recognize the spiritual struggle between good and evil? I could not begin to tell you how many times in a day I have to choose between them, the Holy Spirit helps me daily.....

Dialog never put me there, learning to praise him made it so easy, it worked for me....

I have never received much from any denomination that took me to this understanding, it came from realizing there is a daily struggle between good vs evil in my life daily, this alone made the impact, from there comes the relationship that is second to none.....

Hope you find it inside of you......

 

[GWV5903]

The RCC has a great deal of irrationality, syrenn. I don't understand how the Pope can sit in a room full of priceless masterpieces when he knows that people all over the world are ill or hungry or suffering. Why not auction off the Sistine Chapel etc. and feed the poor?

Benedict has covered himself in glory, though we've had other terrible Popes. I think Benedict's finest moment so far was his speech on the evils of using condoms. Apparently he is unconcerned about the death rate from AIDS in Africa and elsewhere.

Did Sister Theresa sit in the Vatican? No, she was in the slums of Calcutta until she died, giving to the downtrodden.....pretty amazing nun.....

 

[Madeline]

Well, I dunno if I have some epic struggle with good and evil every day, but yes, I can feel the tug to do the wrong thing. I give in to it sometimes; I think everyone does. But people have a Life Path. They move towards something and away from something -- for most of us, that is a choice between good and evil.

No one speaks to me; I don't hear voices. Of any sort. But there have been moments in my life I thought I could not go on and before despair completely covered me, a second wind lifted me. I don't think that's me...I think that's God's Grace.

I've been near people who just radiated good: they make others happy, feel wanted and special, and they just warm everyone up. I've also been near people who radiated evil. My instinct every time was to flee.

I don't understand the Christian belief that evil is attractive or more fun or rewarding, but they should avoid it anyway to get into Heaven. But then I don't think sex or drugs or gambling or alcohol or whatnot are inherently evil; it all depends on how you employ them in your life.

 

[eagleseven]

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

If God is omnipotent, and the sole creator, then evil comes from him (as does everything), and thus he is both good and evil.

Why would an omnipotent God need to fight anyone, let alone a devil, save for amusement?

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

The Jewish Scholar Maimonides celebrated the execution of Jesus, declaring Jesus to be the great deceiver mentioned in Daniel's apocalypse. Given how Christians have tormented Jews over the past 2000 years, I cannot blame him.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

The Holy Spirit allows old men to claim divine right without evidence.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

It is also considered the reason why God gave us the Koran...to put down the heresy of pseudo-polytheism once and for all.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

It makes sense, if you understand that for 2000 years, the religion was developed by emperors, kings, and their supporters.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

Why do you think 2 billion people are Christian? It is not because their ancestors spontaneously saw the light and abandoned their native beliefs...

For instance, Portugal would only sell firearms to Japanese Daimyo (lords) who converted to Christianity. Eight-six such Daimyos converted, just to purchase firearms. The hated Oda Nobunaga used these guns to unite feudal Japan, and protected the missionaries until his assassination.

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

Prayer is about as effective as "the power of positive thinking."

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

For millions of people across history, violence in the name of God was clearly right...and a guaranteed ticket to heaven. In the context of religion, even suicide bombing is perfectly rational.

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

From a practical perspective, the red jump suit is social conditioning. Tis no different from believing in karma.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

A conscience is a product of social conditioning, hence the role for religion.

If we were both raised in 13th-century Mongolia, for instance, our conscience would be telling us to loot and pillage for the benefit of our tribe.

---

I suggest you read [ame=http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807]Amazon.com: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (9780446579803):…[/ame] for an alternative perspective.

 

[Cecilie1200]

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

If God is omnipotent, and the sole creator, then evil comes from him (as does everything), and thus he is both good and evil.

Why would an omnipotent God need to fight anyone, let alone a devil, save for amusement?

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

The Jewish Scholar Maimonides celebrated the execution of Jesus, declaring Jesus to be the great deceiver mentioned in Daniel's apocalypse. Given how Christians have tormented Jews over the past 2000 years, I cannot blame him.


The Holy Spirit allows old men to claim divine right without evidence.


It is also considered the reason why God gave us the Koran...to put down the heresy of pseudo-polytheism once and for all.


It makes sense, if you understand that for 2000 years, the religion was developed by emperors, kings, and their supporters.


Why do you think 2 billion people are Christian? It is not because their ancestors spontaneously saw the light and abandoned their native beliefs...

For instance, Portugal would only sell firearms to Japanese Daimyo (lords) who converted to Christianity. Eight-six such Daimyos converted, just to purchase firearms. The hated Oda Nobunaga used these guns to unite feudal Japan, and protected the missionaries until his assassination.


Prayer is about as effective as "the power of positive thinking."


For millions of people across history, violence in the name of God was clearly right...and a guaranteed ticket to heaven. In the context of religion, even suicide bombing is perfectly rational.

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

From a practical perspective, the red jump suit is social conditioning. Tis no different from believing in karma.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

A conscience is a product of social conditioning, hence the role for religion.

If we were both raised in 13th-century Mongolia, for instance, our conscience would be telling us to loot and pillage for the benefit of our tribe.

---

I suggest you read [ame=http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807]Amazon.com: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (9780446579803):…[/ame] for an alternative perspective.

There is no fanatic so zealous in evangelizing as an atheist with an axe to grind. God forbid they ever just shrug and say, "To each his own" about the belief choices of others.