Why higher education should be free

[BillyV]

Having a college education can mean an additional $1 million dollars or more in lifetime earnings. Yet it’s a hardship to ask those who have benefited from those additional benefits to pay a fraction of those expected additional earnings for them? It’s fair to ask the average schmuck who is either not qualified or motivated enough to attend college to subsidize those who do, even though their earnings will not benefit? To penalize the carpenter, the plumber, the landscaper in order to provide their future bosses with a free college education? I am all for making sure that there is a path to college for anyone who wants it, rich or poor, through student loan programs, but I see no reason those who benefit shouldn’t pay for it.

 

[alan1]

Bob Samuels: Why All Public Higher Education Should Be Free

Tell me why this would be wrong? Do we want a nation of idiots? Ya see what that got us...Bush for 2 terms and Obama so far for one....seriously tell me how normal people can afford college without going into extreme debt...

I graduated from college debt free. My parents didn't pay a single penny towards my education expenses nor towards my room and board when I was in college. I had no scholarships or grants.

Now how is that possible? Hint, I worked full time and supported myself through college, first at a 7-11, then in a warehouse.

What year did you graduate?

That is irrelevant.
I know how this works, I tell you the year, then you tell me that college cost less back then, then I tell you that wages were less back then.

But I'll go ahead and give you this.....I graduated 3 months after the birth of my second child and my wife graduated 6 months before the birth of our second child. So, there you have it, a married couple with a child (then children) managed to work their way through college debt free. Granted, it took me more than 4 years because I couldn't attend college full time, but I was also busy supporting a family at the same time. Of course, I wasn't supporting that family by myself, my wife also worked her ass off while she was attending college.

 

[Old Rocks]

Who pays the teachers/professors if education is free/affordable..I mean who the hell has thousands of dollars laying around to educate themselves with?this just doesn't make sense to me...is there a book by Friedman/Rothbard/Paul I can read? Anyone will do as long its something about education from a libertarian point of view and how it can be achieved.

John Campbell, the editor of the Astounding Science Fiction magazine, later Analog, had an interesting idea.

You go to two years of college or tech school. Government pays your tuition, books, and puts a roof over your head, plus three squares a day. And enough of a little stipend to have half a social life. And for the rest of your life, you pay an extra 1% on your income tax.

Four years of college or tech school. 2%

A Masters or Phd. 3%.

The advantage for the student. No payments, just a little extra deducted from every paycheck. And there is not the choice between a small and promising company dealing with what your specialty is, at a low initial wage, or a job as a professional bottle washer at a big company. Because there are no mortgage sized payments staring at you as soon as you graduate.

The advantage for the government. A more highly trained work force, creating more value and additional tax revenue.

 

[alan1]

You have a point,what can I expect since all of us are born and raised in a controlled society I thought of myself as more free but obviously my brain isn't 100% free yet. Its just a shock that we would have to pay for our child's education. I do wonder though. Would kids who's parents can afford a better school be allowed to go there or would all kids in a community attend the 1 school? Would the public school I pay for be as good for my kids as the private school that costs more?As a parent I want only the best for my kids and these things worry me

Then send your kids to a private school if you want the best for them.

I really have no sympathy for you, since you already admitted that you don't pay taxes that means you are a net drain on the society.

I don't want your sympathy I wanted someone to explain how this would work. Taxes are illegal so I really don't care what you say on that point.

Work your ass off and save money for your children's education or tell them to work their ass off while they are in college like I did.
It really is that simple.

 

[AmyNation]

I graduated from college debt free. My parents didn't pay a single penny towards my education expenses nor towards my room and board when I was in college. I had no scholarships or grants.

Now how is that possible? Hint, I worked full time and supported myself through college, first at a 7-11, then in a warehouse.

What year did you graduate?

That is irrelevant.
I know how this works, I tell you the year, then you tell me that college cost less back then, then I tell you that wages were less back then.

But I'll go ahead and give you this.....I graduated 3 months after the birth of my second child and my wife graduated 6 months before the birth of our second child. So, there you have it, a married couple with a child (then children) managed to work their way through college debt free. Granted, it took me more than 4 years because I couldn't attend college full time, but I was also busy supporting a family at the same time. Of course, I wasn't supporting that family by myself, my wife also worked her ass off while she was attending college.

Well if you know how it works, then you know college relative to wages say... 30 years ago, was very diffrent to college today

Btw, I graduated college last year. I had a heap of scholarships, worked full time and went part time to offset the costs and still managed to walk away with around 20k in debt. I was honestly happy to have only 20k, because I have friends who owe more on their student loans then most people owe on their mortgage.

 

[dblack]

It should not be free. It should be paid for......with income taxes. Like they do in places who think more clearly regarding this topic.

The entire nation benefits whenever a child receives a quality education. It is a worthwhile national investment.

Some of the nation benefits whenever a child receives an education. Who benefits, and to what degree is inevitably a political decision, and will be hotly contested by those with the most to gain (industrialists in need of a compliant, educated work force, religious zealots pursuing an agenda, corporations in need of willing consumers, etc...)

To address the OP, education - outside of disseminating the dictates of the laws it enforces - is not a proper function for government. Government is unique, among all social institutions, in that we grant it the power to use force to achieve its ends. Because force (violence) is something we want to minimize in a free society, we should limit the functions of government as much as possible to those that require the use of force. Education does not require the use of force.

 

[eflatminor]

I will take that bet

Honestly, 3 things make me almost assured college will be part of a public education in the future. 1, we are living longer, already looking to push back the age of retirement and it's natural to then look to and adjust the age of adulthood as well. Most people dont view your average 18 year olds as an adult anyway. 2, more and more college is becoming a necessity instead of a luxury. The more we lose unskilled jobs that pay well ie factory workers, the more people will be forced to seek a higher education to feed their families. And 3, kids today are graduating college with mountains of debt, they are the people who will be writing future laws and they are going to be far more inclined to see the value of free college then anyone before them

And who will be paying for this?

While you ponder, consider that you currently owe just under $140,000 towards the debt...just YOU. So, how will you be paying? Cash or check...before you start adding to that debt with more free gubmint stuff?

I imagine it will be paid for the same way we pay for k-12 now.

No money left. Sorry.

 

[Toro]

I graduated from college debt free. My parents didn't pay a single penny towards my education expenses nor towards my room and board when I was in college. I had no scholarships or grants.

Now how is that possible? Hint, I worked full time and supported myself through college, first at a 7-11, then in a warehouse.

What year did you graduate?

That is irrelevant.
I know how this works, I tell you the year, then you tell me that college cost less back then, then I tell you that wages were less back then.

But I'll go ahead and give you this.....I graduated 3 months after the birth of my second child and my wife graduated 6 months before the birth of our second child. So, there you have it, a married couple with a child (then children) managed to work their way through college debt free. Granted, it took me more than 4 years because I couldn't attend college full time, but I was also busy supporting a family at the same time. Of course, I wasn't supporting that family by myself, my wife also worked her ass off while she was attending college.

The cost of a college education has risen faster than wages, so it is very relevant.

 

[Avatar4321]

Thats what happens when Big government artificially inflates education costs.

 

[Leweman]

If all those faculty and staff want to work for free ... go for it.

 

[Toro]

Thats what happens when Big government artificially inflates education costs.

It's not big government. It's the market at work.

An education has become more important becomes incomes for higher educated people have risen faster than those without an education. This has led to more demand and higher prices for an education, especially for the highest quality schools, which has relatively fixed supply. Tuition for a Harvard MBA this year is $120k (so I've read).

 

[LoneLaugher]

Who pays the teachers/professors if education is free/affordable..I mean who the hell has thousands of dollars laying around to educate themselves with?this just doesn't make sense to me...is there a book by Friedman/Rothbard/Paul I can read? Anyone will do as long its something about education from a libertarian point of view and how it can be achieved.

John Campbell, the editor of the Astounding Science Fiction magazine, later Analog, had an interesting idea.

You go to two years of college or tech school. Government pays your tuition, books, and puts a roof over your head, plus three squares a day. And enough of a little stipend to have half a social life. And for the rest of your life, you pay an extra 1% on your income tax.

Four years of college or tech school. 2%

A Masters or Phd. 3%.

The advantage for the student. No payments, just a little extra deducted from every paycheck. And there is not the choice between a small and promising company dealing with what your specialty is, at a low initial wage, or a job as a professional bottle washer at a big company. Because there are no mortgage sized payments staring at you as soon as you graduate.

The advantage for the government. A more highly trained work force, creating more value and additional tax revenue.

I like it.

 

[AmyNation]

And who will be paying for this?

While you ponder, consider that you currently owe just under $140,000 towards the debt...just YOU. So, how will you be paying? Cash or check...before you start adding to that debt with more free gubmint stuff?

I imagine it will be paid for the same way we pay for k-12 now.

No money left. Sorry.

*shrug* I can't say I'm concerned about how future Americans will pay for their children's education. If its something that's important to them, they will find a way.

 

[Wiseacre]

Having a college education can mean an additional $1 million dollars or more in lifetime earnings. Yet it’s a hardship to ask those who have benefited from those additional benefits to pay a fraction of those expected additional earnings for them? It’s fair to ask the average schmuck who is either not qualified or motivated enough to attend college to subsidize those who do, even though their earnings will not benefit? To penalize the carpenter, the plumber, the landscaper in order to provide their future bosses with a free college education? I am all for making sure that there is a path to college for anyone who wants it, rich or poor, through student loan programs, but I see no reason those who benefit shouldn’t pay for it.

Somebody gets an extra one million dollars in earnings but can't pay for his/her own education? What's wrong with paying for your own education?

You think an employer benefits from an educated employee? Does he not pay a higher wage for the employee's knowledge? Where do you think the extra million bucks of extra income comes from?

You ask if it's fair that the average smuck should subsidize a college education for someone else? But is that not exactly what a 'free' education is? Subsidized by everyone else's tax dollars? Are we not doing that now, under Obama's plan we would forgive education loans after a period of time. How many billions are we the taxpayers spending on student loans for someone else's education? Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

[The Professor]

I have 3 kids I would love to know how they are supposed to afford college minus them getting a scholarship of some kind...

There are many ways to pay for college, scholarships are one. I have no idea how old your kids are but if you want them to go to college, I'd start saving now, today.

I'm thinking if we did a better job in K-12, college would be a piece of cake. I wish I had a number of how many remedial classes students take before they actually embark on a degree.

My son that had a scholarship decided college wasn't that important. At 23 he went back to school but he's paying for it himself.

There are far too many remedial classes. The very idea that some (maybe most) colleges have remedial reading programs is laughable.

Around 1980 when I was working on my MBA, I took a course in statistics. Everyone in the class had at least a 2-year college degree. It was the instructor's first day of teaching in the United States, and he patiently handled one stupid question after another. Finally, writing on the blackboard he came to the end of a simple equation in which he reduced the answer 3/6 to 1/2. Then someone raised his hand and asked “how did you get three sixths equal one half?” The professor took a few steps forward, dropped his arms to his side, surveyed the class and said, “if I were you people, I would sue the school system for what they have done to you.” He was right. Sadly, things have gotten even worse since that time.

The only thing that will happen if we make college free to everyone is that eventually a college degree will be required for every job, no matter how routine, and the entire college system will be dumbed down just like the rest of the school system. Of course, the student must be able to concentrate on his studies and cannot be expected to work; therefore, he must receive housing, food, medical and dental care and all those other things necessary to maintain an acceptable lifestyle. A lot of people would waste the college experience – learning little or nothing – just to avoid working for four years.

In a world where students are truly serious about education and employment; and educators are both concerned and competent; and where classes are matched to an individual's desires AND potential, free college (tax paid) might work. For many reasons, I do not see it working in the U.S.A. Not now, not ever.

Your son did good. I went to school a little late in life and got my MBA when I was 41 and my JD when I was 45. I paid my own way.

 

[Rozman]

Bob Samuels: Why All Public Higher Education Should Be Free

Tell me why this would be wrong? Do we want a nation of idiots? Ya see what that got us...Bush for 2 terms and Obama so far for one....seriously tell me how normal people can afford college without going into extreme debt...

I wish you guys would stop with these half measures.
Why not go all out and let people know where you stand.
Show some guts for once and put your cards on the table and tell us all what you really want.

Confiscate all personal property and wealth.

Government will provide for the people what they feel the people need.

Free housing,free education,vouchers for food,all people eat the same,transportation will be provided to all to government assigned places of employment,health care provided to all...

I wish some in your party would just stand up and get it over with.

 

[Avatar4321]

Thats what happens when Big government artificially inflates education costs.

It's not big government. It's the market at work.

An education has become more important becomes incomes for higher educated people have risen faster than those without an education. This has led to more demand and higher prices for an education, especially for the highest quality schools, which has relatively fixed supply. Tuition for a Harvard MBA this year is $120k (so I've read).

No. It's not just market. The government is making it easier to get money for education, so schools are free to raise prices outside the normal range.

 

[BillyV]

Having a college education can mean an additional $1 million dollars or more in lifetime earnings. Yet it’s a hardship to ask those who have benefited from those additional benefits to pay a fraction of those expected additional earnings for them? It’s fair to ask the average schmuck who is either not qualified or motivated enough to attend college to subsidize those who do, even though their earnings will not benefit? To penalize the carpenter, the plumber, the landscaper in order to provide their future bosses with a free college education? I am all for making sure that there is a path to college for anyone who wants it, rich or poor, through student loan programs, but I see no reason those who benefit shouldn’t pay for it.

Somebody gets an extra one million dollars in earnings but can't pay for his/her own education? What's wrong with paying for your own education?

You think an employer benefits from an educated employee? Does he not pay a higher wage for the employee's knowledge? Where do you think the extra million bucks of extra income comes from?

You ask if it's fair that the average smuck should subsidize a college education for someone else? But is that not exactly what a 'free' education is? Subsidized by everyone else's tax dollars? Are we not doing that now, under Obama's plan we would forgive education loans after a period of time. How many billions are we the taxpayers spending on student loans for someone else's education? Is that fair? I don't think so.

We're saying the same thing, yet it seems you think we're on opposite sides.

 

[alan1]

What year did you graduate?

That is irrelevant.
I know how this works, I tell you the year, then you tell me that college cost less back then, then I tell you that wages were less back then.

But I'll go ahead and give you this.....I graduated 3 months after the birth of my second child and my wife graduated 6 months before the birth of our second child. So, there you have it, a married couple with a child (then children) managed to work their way through college debt free. Granted, it took me more than 4 years because I couldn't attend college full time, but I was also busy supporting a family at the same time. Of course, I wasn't supporting that family by myself, my wife also worked her ass off while she was attending college.

The cost of a college education has risen faster than wages, so it is very relevant.

CPI has risen slower, maybe people need to learn to save that extra income to offset the difference.
Funny, but despite your graph, the OP thinks we can somehow make college education "free".

 

[Toro]

That is irrelevant.
I know how this works, I tell you the year, then you tell me that college cost less back then, then I tell you that wages were less back then.

But I'll go ahead and give you this.....I graduated 3 months after the birth of my second child and my wife graduated 6 months before the birth of our second child. So, there you have it, a married couple with a child (then children) managed to work their way through college debt free. Granted, it took me more than 4 years because I couldn't attend college full time, but I was also busy supporting a family at the same time. Of course, I wasn't supporting that family by myself, my wife also worked her ass off while she was attending college.

The cost of a college education has risen faster than wages, so it is very relevant.

CPI has risen slower, maybe people need to learn to save that extra income to offset the difference.
Funny, but despite your graph, the OP thinks we can somehow make college education "free".

We shouldn't.

It's also surprising from someone who claims to want "freedom" from the government. Generally, free higher education is a policy of the socialist Left, particularly in Europe.