Why does Palestine have a right to exist?

[DavidS]

Is it OK if I ask as non-confrontational as possible why does Israel have the right to exist?

After all, it's a creation of British zionists colonialists who have never had any claim, right, or title to the land.

Israel is an artificial creation that is populated by european jews who also never had any claim, right, or title to the land.

Here's what's missing in your argument ...

Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour

Surely this answers your question and demonstrates that Israel is an artificial nation created by colonialist declaration, not history.

It's interesting indeed that Jews would be asking this question when they will scream to high heaven if someone asks why Israel has a right to exist.

Here's the flaw in your argument:

Whether you call it Palestine or Israel, the letter you point out was the British recognizing that the land was meant for the Jews and not the Arab Muslims.

You know your history. You know that the Kingdom of Israel existed for thousands of years before the Romans re-named the land Palestine. All the UN did was re-name Jewish Palestine into Israel.

So let me re-define my question:

Why does an Arab-Muslim Palestine have a right to exist?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

And? Is there a point? If I can direct your attention to my link on Transjordan, you will find that many countries in the middle east, including Iraq, were artificial creations. Countries usually are when they are carved up by the victors in wartime. The Arabs backed the wrong horse in WWI and II.

But only Israel annoys you.

Ask yourself why that would be.

Ask yourself why you believe Israel has rioghts no other nation should have before you get too pompous.

I have never asked why Israel should exist nor have I ever suggested that it shouldn't .. and I defy you to find a post from me that suggest I have.

I'm responding here to what seems to me a really strange question coming from people who would shit bricks if anyone suggests Israel should not exist.

 

[DavidS]

Ask yourself why you believe Israel has rioghts no other nation should have before you get too pompous.

What right does Israel have as a nation that no other nation has? The right for a religious population and an official religion? Dozens if not hundreds of other nations have that. The right to defend itself if attacked? Every nation has that. The right to buy American weapons? Many other nations buy our weapons as well.

So, Mr. Coal, what right does Israel have that no other country in the entire world has?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Here's the flaw in your argument:

Whether you call it Palestine or Israel, the letter you point out was the British recognizing that the land was meant for the Jews and not the Arab Muslims.

You know your history. You know that the Kingdom of Israel existed for thousands of years before the Romans re-named the land Palestine. All the UN did was re-name Jewish Palestine into Israel.

So let me re-define my question:

Why does an Arab-Muslim Palestine have a right to exist?

The letter is no such acknowledgment the land was meant for Jews, but rather an acknowledgment of the zionists (Rothschild, Churchill) in England having the power to exert their will over indigenous people .. no differently than when the Romans did it.

Palestine has a right to exist because it's people are indigenous to the land .. unlike european jews who populate Israel.

It has a right to exist because it exists .. no differently than Israel's right to exist.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

What right does Israel have as a nation that no other nation has? The right for a religious population and an official religion? Dozens if not hundreds of other nations have that. The right to defend itself if attacked? Every nation has that. The right to buy American weapons? Many other nations buy our weapons as well.

So, Mr. Coal, what right does Israel have that no other country in the entire world has?

You believe it has a right to defy UN Resolutions without consequence.

I do not, nor does most of the world.

 

[editec]

Why does Palestine have a right to exist?

Because they exist, and they think they do.

EXACTLY the same reason that Jews had the right to exist for that 1800 years or so they didn't have a homeland, but had a sense of enthic identity despite having no nation to call their own.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[DavidS]

Palestine has a right to exist because it's people are indigenous to the land .. unlike european jews who populate Israel.

Incorrect.

Among Jews living in Israel, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second or third generation Israelis, and the rest are olim — 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.[11]

Mizrahim and Sephardim (about 39% of the national population): Most Jewish immigrants to Israel from Iran, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria are considered Mizrahim, and the term has come to refer to Jews whose ancestors lived in Arab or Muslim lands, but did not live in Spain or Portugal. The word Sephardi refers to Jews whose ancestors lived in Spain and Portugal until 1492, and sometimes until later, then spread to Greece, Italy, England, the Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe, as well as into the Ottoman Empire and in North Africa. Many Sephardi Jews that settled in Israel from Morocco, Algeria, Turkey and the whole Mediterranean area are descendants from migrants from Spain and Portugal. In modern Israeli Hebrew usage, this category is often included in Mizrahim.Those with origins in Muslim and Arab lands are commonly called Sephardim by their Ashkenazi counterparts, though the majority does not descend from Iberian Jews and are best described as Mizrahi. The Jews of Iran and Iraqi Jews are always considered Mizrahi as well as the Yemenite and Omani Jews.

Ashkenazim (about 37% of the national population): Jews whose ancestors came from Germany, France, and Eastern Europe. Most Ashkenazi Jews that settled in Israel were from Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Romania, Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic, Italy (mainly Miand Trieste), North and South America, South Africa and Australia.

Indian Jews (about 1% of the national population): Jews from five distinct communities in India and also Burma, each with very different origins.
Italian Jews (about 1% of the national population):[citation needed] Jews whose ancestors lived mainly in central Italy. Due to its history and geographical position, Rome hosted the most ancient continuous Jewish community in Western Europe, dating back to the Roman Empire.
Beta Israel/Falash Mura of Ethiopia (about 2% of the national population): Jews who were initially brought to Israel during Operation Solomon and Operation Moses. Today at least 127,000 live in the country.

 

[DavidS]

Palestine has a right to exist because it's people are indigenous to the land ..

Now, I didn't get to answer the second part:

The people who identify themselves today are indigenous to Arabia - NOT Israel/Palestine. There may have been generations of families living in Palestine for centuries who are Arab Muslim (I believe their population around the time of the formation of British Palestine was close to 200,000), but they are still living in Israel today - they are Arab-Israelis. There are over 1 million of them. They have the same freedoms as Jewish Israelis do - they can even serve in Israel's Kenesset.

It has a right to exist because it exists .. no differently than Israel's right to exist.

Palestine only existed as a name difference between Israel and Palestine. It was still Israel, just under a different name. The people of Iran are Persians, not Iranian. The people of Iraq are Arabs, not Iraqis.

 

[DavidS]

You believe it has a right to defy UN Resolutions without consequence.

I do not, nor does most of the world.

I'm going to list for you the number of UN resolutions against Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Al Asqua Martyr's Brigade, and Fatah. I hope you're ready...

0

There are NO UN resolutions condemning Islamic terrorists. The United Nations has become so anti-Israel it's a joke. The UN has become increasingly irrelevant and I'd say within 25 years, it will be disbanded. Rent it out for office space or something... it's a nice sized building.

 

[DavidS]

Because they exist, and they think they do.

Who exists? Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank? I know they exist. But they're Arabs. I'm asking why should Palestine exist.

EXACTLY

the same reason that Jews had the right to exist for that 1800 years or so they didn't have a homeland, but had a sense of enthic identity despite having no nation to call their own.

The Jews clung to hope that there would one day be a homeland for them where the official religion would be Judaism.

Since the creation of Islam, there has ALWAYS been a homeland for Arab Muslims, Turkish Muslims, Indian Muslims, Russian Muslims... I mean, break it down by almost any ethnicity you want and there's a country for it out there. Below is a list of countries that have Islam as their official religion:

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Islamic countries

Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion. Although the separation of church and state is a concept that originated in a western context, there is the notion of toleration for people of the book in Islam.

• Afghanistan (Islamic state)
• Algeria
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Brunei
• Comoros
• Egypt
• Indonesia (recognizes Islam as one of the six recognized religions, along with Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism). Indonesia uses Islamic jurisprudence in private law.
• Iran (Islamic state)
• Iraq
• Jordan
• Kuwait
• Libya
• Malaysia
• Maldives
• Mauritania
• Morocco
• Oman
• Pakistan (Islamic state)
• Qatar
• Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
• Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
• Somalia
• Somaliland
• Tunisia[5]
• United Arab Emirates
• Yemen (Islamic state)

And now I shall list for you the number of countries with Judaism as its official religion:

• Israel

Seems a bit lopsided.

 

[Sunni Man]

The interesting question is why none of those places are called "apartheid states" even though I'm not allowed to set foot in many of them and jews were either oppressed or expelled

You know you are lying Jillian.

Tourists, both Jew and non Jew, can travel to just about anyone of these countries with No problem.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

You know you are lying Jillian.

Tourists, both Jew and non Jew, can travel to just about anyone of these countries with No problem.

In fact many jews live in the lands she claims she can't visit.

 

[DavidS]

You know you are lying Jillian.

Tourists, both Jew and non Jew, can travel to just about anyone of these countries with No problem.

Ack! I hate to say it, but Sunni's right. In fact, Libya is doing everything it can to encourage tourism these days. The UAE's Abu Dabai is becoming a place booming for the rich and afluent, a 21st century Beruit. Yes, one must abide by the laws and customs of the country, but you have to do that with any non-European country you visit.

I for one, would love to visit Iran one day when it is no longer under the tyranical rule of the Grand Ayotollah. By hobby I study archeology and I would LOVE to do a dig in Tehran! The amount of history located there is incredible.

The three places I would love to do a dig at are:

Israel
China
Iran

I'm not a huge fan of Orientle culture, I don't have anything against it, but it's such a foreign concept to the way I live life... but it is still, nontheless, intriguing.

 

[editec]

Now, I didn't get to answer the second part:

The people who identify themselves today are indigenous to Arabia - NOT Israel/Palestine.

So? They cannot go back anymore than most americans cannot go back to whereever their forefathers came from, can they?

There may have been generations of families living in Palestine for centuries who are Arab Muslim (I believe their population around the time of the formation of British Palestine was close to 200,000), but they are still living in Israel today - they are Arab-Israelis. There are over 1 million of them. They have the same freedoms as Jewish Israelis do - they can even serve in Israel's Kenesset.

Good for them.

SAdly there's a whole lot of Palestinians living in ghettos on the margin of Isreal who'd like to live in their homes and farms again.

Palestine only existed as a name difference between Israel and Palestine.

True.

It was still Israel, just under a different name.

Not until enough Jews found the fortitude to MAKE it so, DavidS.

The people of Iran are Persians, not Iranian. The people of Iraq are Arabs, not Iraqis.

I presume the above is attempting to make a point but it's lost on me.

It appears to be some sort of goofy racist world view but I confess it makes no sense.

The people of FRANCE are basically Germanic, too but they're not GERMANS.

 

[DavidS]

So? They cannot go back anymore than most americans cannot go back to whereever their forefathers came from, can they?

What are you talking about? They cannot go back where? To Israel? Have you seen Israel, lately? It had over 1 million Arabs living there, not including the West Bank and Gaza.

Sadly there's a whole lot of Palestinians living in ghettos on the margin of Isreal who'd like to live in their homes and farms again.

Again, these are not Palestinians. These are Arabs. There are plenty of Arabs living in Israel right now. The people living in Gaza and the West Bank do not come from Israel. They come from Arabia.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

There are many JEWISH voices that can tell you why Palestine has a right to exist.

Israel in Gaza: Irrationality

By Wallace Shawn

Jews, historically, have been irrationally feared, hated and killed. Given that background, it's not surprising that the irrationality which surrounded them for so long, the fire of irrationality in which they were almost extinguished, has jumped across and taken hold of the soul of many Jews and indeed dominates the thinking of today's Israeli leaders and their American supporters.

Recent history shows that the Jews, as a people, have found few friends who are honest and true. During World War II, when Hitler's anti-Semitism was responsible for the murdering of the millions of Jews, the world and the United States expressed their own anti-Semitism by refusing to house and welcome the tortured race, preferring instead to let it be exterminated if need be. After the war, the world felt it owed the Jews something--but then showed its lack of true regard for the tormented group by "giving" them a piece of land populated and surrounded by another people--an act of European imperialism carried out exactly at the moment when non-European peoples all over the world were finally concluding that European imperialism was completely unacceptable and had to be resisted. And now we have the spectacle of American politicians encouraging and financing Israeli policies which will ultimately lead to more disaster and destruction for Jews.

It is not rational to believe that the Palestinians in the occupied territories will be terrorized by force and violence, by cruelty, by starvation or by slaughter into a docile acceptance of the Israeli occupation. There is no evidence that that could possibly happen and mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Many right-wing Israelis and American Jews clearly believe that Jews have always had enemies and always will have enemies--and who can be shocked that certain Jews might think that? To these individuals, a Palestinian throwing stones at an Israeli soldier, even if his life has perhaps been destroyed by the Israeli occupation, is simply part of an eternal mob of anti-Semites, a mob made up principally of people to whom the Jews have done no harm at all, as they did no harm to Hitler. The logical consequence of this view of the world is that in the face of such massive and eternal opposition, Jews are morally justified in taking any measures they can think of to protect themselves. They are involved in one long eternal war, and a few hundred Palestinians killed today must be measured against many millions of Jews who were killed in the past. The agony the Israelis might inflict on a Palestinian family today must be seen in the perspective of Jewish families in agony all over the world in the past.

It is irrational for the Israeli leaders to imagine that the Palestinians will understand this particular point of view--will understand why Jews might find it appropriate, let us say, to retaliate for the death of one Jew by killing a hundred Palestinians. If a Palestinian killed a hundred Jews to retaliate for the killing of one Palestinian--for that matter, if a Thai killed a hundred Cambodians to retaliate for the killing of one Thai--which, from the point of view of the Israeli leaders, would of course be unjust, that would be racist, as if one Palestinian or one Thai were worth a hundred Israelis or a hundred Cambodians. But if a Jew does it, it's not unjust and it's not racist, because it's part of an eternal struggle in which the Jews have lost and lost and lost--they've already lost more people than there are Palestinians. Well, it's not surprising that certain Jews would feel this way, but no Palestinian will ever share that feeling or be willing to accept it. What the Palestinians see is an implacable and heartless enemy, one that considers itself un-bound by any rules or principles, an enemy that can't be reasoned with but can only be feared, hated and, if possible, killed.

As poor and oppressed people around the world are very well aware of the events in the occupied territories, and as they strongly identify with the Palestinian struggle and point of view, the future of the Jews looks increasingly dim.

Consequently it is disgraceful and vile and no favor to the Jews for American politicians--for narrow, short-term political advantage, for narrow, short-term global-strategic reasons and, yes, also in expiation of the residual guilt they feel over what happened to the Jews in the past--to pander to the irrationality of the most irrational Jews.

Actions based on irrational premises inevitably fail in their purposes--they fail, and if the premises don't change, then the actions are inevitably repeated, in forms which are more and more grotesque. It is unbearable to think that the new American administration would begin with more American dollars being poured into what is unjustifiable. It is also unbearable to think that among the first words we would hear from our new, clearly rational president would be preposterous sentences trying to persuade us that Israeli policies which seem to be appalling are actually quite normal and acceptable. Certainly nothing our new president could do would be of greater value to the world--and greater value to the Jews--than to abruptly end the sickeningly patronizing habit of supporting an irrationality which was born in tragedy and will end in more tragedy.
Israel in Gaza: Irrationality

 

[Modbert]

This thread completely fails because Palestine, Israel, and any other country has no right to exist.

Stop trying to justify why you think you're right David. At this point I believe you could care less about peace.

 

[Modbert]

I'm going to list for you the number of UN resolutions against Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Al Asqua Martyr's Brigade, and Fatah. I hope you're ready...

0

There are NO UN resolutions condemning Islamic terrorists. The United Nations has become so anti-Israel it's a joke. The UN has become increasingly irrelevant and I'd say within 25 years, it will be disbanded. Rent it out for office space or something... it's a nice sized building.

Stop bitching, the UN could give a fuck about places like Darfur, why would they care about Israel if they do shit in the first place?

 

[Modbert]

Who exists? Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank? I know they exist. But they're Arabs. I'm asking why should Palestine exist.



The Jews clung to hope that there would one day be a homeland for them where the official religion would be Judaism.

Since the creation of Islam, there has ALWAYS been a homeland for Arab Muslims, Turkish Muslims, Indian Muslims, Russian Muslims... I mean, break it down by almost any ethnicity you want and there's a country for it out there. Below is a list of countries that have Islam as their official religion:

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Islamic countries

Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion. Although the separation of church and state is a concept that originated in a western context, there is the notion of toleration for people of the book in Islam.

• Afghanistan (Islamic state)
• Algeria
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Brunei
• Comoros
• Egypt
• Indonesia (recognizes Islam as one of the six recognized religions, along with Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism). Indonesia uses Islamic jurisprudence in private law.
• Iran (Islamic state)
• Iraq
• Jordan
• Kuwait
• Libya
• Malaysia
• Maldives
• Mauritania
• Morocco
• Oman
• Pakistan (Islamic state)
• Qatar
• Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
• Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
• Somalia
• Somaliland
• Tunisia[5]
• United Arab Emirates
• Yemen (Islamic state)

And now I shall list for you the number of countries with Judaism as its official religion:

• Israel

Seems a bit lopsided.

Not the world's fault they decide not to practice Judaism.

And this completely destroys your argument. If they supposedly just want a homeland, then why don't they decide to move elsewhere?

 

[dilloduck]

Not the world's fault they decide not to practice Judaism.

And this completely destroys your argument. If they supposedly just want a homeland, then why don't they decide to move elsewhere?

Because they seriously believe that God gave them THAT land.