Why Do You Trust the Bible?

[KevinWestern]

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK on Christian beliefs as I respect the grand majority of Christians, see them to be wonderful people and wonderful contributors to the community, and have no right to say that what they believe is wrong.

However, I have a question; given that the New Testament was written ~30-60 years AFTER the death of Jesus Christ (correct me if I’m wrong), aren’t you at all concerned that the authors might have:

(1) Forgotten some key details, exact words, etc (I mean, do you remember what you ate for lunch March 3rd, 2009? I don’t)
(2) Altered some things to make the story more interesting

Fair question, right?

I mean, imagine if followers (ie disciples) of President Obama were to create a biography of his SIXTY years from now (specifically his followers) – from memory – don’t you think it’d be just a little bit skewed? Would you consider their account to be valid? I know I wouldn't, and would demand backup/proof! Would you?

These are just honest questions from a non-Christian. I'm not trying to be combative...

 

[Avatar4321]

Two reasons:

1) The Holy Spirit bears witness that it is true.
2) I've tested the doctrine and the fruits are good.

 

[pacer]

However, I have a question; given that the New Testament was written ~30-60 years AFTER the death of Jesus Christ (correct me if I’m wrong), aren’t you at all concerned that the authors might have:

(1) Forgotten some key details, exact words, etc (I mean, do you remember what you ate for lunch March 3rd, 2009? I don’t)
(2) Altered some things to make the story more interesting

Yes to both questions.

 

[KevinWestern]

Two reasons:

1) The Holy Spirit bears witness that it is true.
2) I've tested the doctrine and the fruits are good.

Ok, I understand. But I know people who read the Koran, or are Buddhists, etc also report similar findings with their teachings. Do you believe that perhaps all these religions are based - in part - on "universal truths" and therefore people will inevitably feel moved by reading the texts?

 

[PostmodernProph]

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK on Christian beliefs as I respect the grand majority of Christians, see them to be wonderful people and wonderful contributors to the community, and have no right to say that what they believe is wrong.

However, I have a question; given that the New Testament was written ~30-60 years AFTER the death of Jesus Christ (correct me if I’m wrong), aren’t you at all concerned that the authors might have:

(1) Forgotten some key details, exact words, etc (I mean, do you remember what you ate for lunch March 3rd, 2009? I don’t)
(2) Altered some things to make the story more interesting

Fair question, right?

I mean, imagine if followers (ie disciples) of President Obama were to create a biography of his SIXTY years from now (specifically his followers) – from memory – don’t you think it’d be just a little bit skewed? Would you consider their account to be valid? I know I wouldn't, and would demand backup/proof! Would you?

These are just honest questions from a non-Christian. I'm not trying to be combative...

I start with a few basic assumptions.....
1) the universe and everything in it was intentionally created....
2) a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it would also be powerful enough to communicate to us, why he created it....
3) that a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it and communicate to us why he did it would be smart enough to make sure we didn't misunderstand that communication......
4) about half the people on the planet have a common general consensus regarding what that communication is.....(substantially more if you count those who know what it is but refuse to accept it)......

 

[KevinWestern]

I start with a few basic assumptions.....
1) the universe and everything in it was intentionally created....
2) a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it would also be powerful enough to communicate to us, why he created it....
3) that a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it and communicate to us why he did it would be smart enough to make sure we didn't misunderstand that communication......
4) about half the people on the planet have a common general consensus regarding what that communication is.....(substantially more if you count those who know what it is but refuse to accept it)......

Ok, fair enough. But half the planet? I think there’s like 2.3 billion “official Christians” and many of those individuals fall into the “routine Christian” category where they merely go to church on Sundays because that’s what they’ve always done from childhood. Point I’m making is that the majority of the planet isn’t Christian (but correct me if my stats are wrong).

Also, question I posed (sort of) above is that people of ALL religious groups report “knowing inside” that what they’ve read/experienced is the absolute truth. I don’t doubt this feeling you describe – as I have felt it before on my own spiritual journeys – however it obviously presents a problem as BOTH Islam and Christianity obviously can’t be simultaneously true.

You know what I mean?

 

[pacer]

however it obviously presents a problem as BOTH Islam and Christianity obviously can’t be simultaneously true.

Yes, of course, both can be simultaneously true. Faith is a very personal and private thing. Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, truth is in the heart of the beholder. What one chooses to believe is truth onto oneself.

 

[KevinWestern]

however it obviously presents a problem as BOTH Islam and Christianity obviously can’t be simultaneously true.

Yes, of course, both can be simultaneously true. Faith is a very personal and private thing. Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, truth is in the heart of the beholder. What one chooses to believe is truth onto oneself.

I agree, and I also think that many of these spiritual leaders did in fact have some sort of line of insight into the ways of the universe and shared what they saw in the best way they could. Maybe all of these world religions share in common "universal truths".

 

[pacer]

Maybe all of these world religions share in common "universal truths".

Can everyone agree on a definition of "truth"? Is there such a thing as an absolute universal truth? Not even God is a universal truth since Buddhists, for example, do not believe in a personal god but in a buddha-nature (which I suppose would be the equivalent of a god-nature) that anyone through meditation and fasting can attain.

 

[Mad_Cabbie]

No, I personally DO NOT trust the Bible. It is filled with what I perceive to be contradictions and offers a very inaccurate snapshot of creation.

I do not understand why people would believe in a book, when anytime it is tested against reality, it fails.

 

[PostmodernProph]

I start with a few basic assumptions.....
1) the universe and everything in it was intentionally created....
2) a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it would also be powerful enough to communicate to us, why he created it....
3) that a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it and communicate to us why he did it would be smart enough to make sure we didn't misunderstand that communication......
4) about half the people on the planet have a common general consensus regarding what that communication is.....(substantially more if you count those who know what it is but refuse to accept it)......

Ok, fair enough. But half the planet? I think there’s like 2.3 billion “official Christians” and many of those individuals fall into the “routine Christian” category where they merely go to church on Sundays because that’s what they’ve always done from childhood. Point I’m making is that the majority of the planet isn’t Christian (but correct me if my stats are wrong).

Also, question I posed (sort of) above is that people of ALL religious groups report “knowing inside” that what they’ve read/experienced is the absolute truth. I don’t doubt this feeling you describe – as I have felt it before on my own spiritual journeys – however it obviously presents a problem as BOTH Islam and Christianity obviously can’t be simultaneously true.

You know what I mean?

somewhere around three billion of somewhere around six billion.....close enough for a thread this size......

if both can't simultaneously be true, then one must be wrong......if I thought what I believed was wrong, I predict I would change what I believed (no one would believe something they thought was wrong, would they)......

when I look at the religions of the world (at least the top ten which covers I think, around 95% of the people on the planet) there are only three which teach #2 above - a deity which claims to be communicating to his creation through a written document......that would be Christianity, Islam and Judaism......the Hind, Buddhists, and Taoists make no such claim.....

they begin by saying the same deity created the universe......Islam and Judaism claim that humanity can obtain righteousness before God by their own actions.....I find that belief to be incredible, from what I have observed of humanity.....Christianity claims such righteousness is only available through the act of the deity.....that I can believe.....thus the screening is complete through step #3 above, leaving me with one alternative.....

 

[Steven_R]

I'm an agnostic. If I had to choose a religion, it would be something akin to Deism. That said, there's some good advice in the Bible and it is one of the foundation literary and political documents of Western society. But it is also just a Bronze Age creation myth and it is no more truthful to me than the Aeneid or the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Rigveda or any of the hundreds of other ancient religious writing are.

 

[norwegen]

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK on Christian beliefs as I respect the grand majority of Christians, see them to be wonderful people and wonderful contributors to the community, and have no right to say that what they believe is wrong.

However, I have a question; given that the New Testament was written ~30-60 years AFTER the death of Jesus Christ (correct me if I’m wrong), aren’t you at all concerned that the authors might have:

(1) Forgotten some key details, exact words, etc (I mean, do you remember what you ate for lunch March 3rd, 2009? I don’t)
(2) Altered some things to make the story more interesting

Fair question, right?

I mean, imagine if followers (ie disciples) of President Obama were to create a biography of his SIXTY years from now (specifically his followers) – from memory – don’t you think it’d be just a little bit skewed? Would you consider their account to be valid? I know I wouldn't, and would demand backup/proof! Would you?

These are just honest questions from a non-Christian. I'm not trying to be combative...

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 14:26

 

[KevinWestern]

somewhere around three billion of somewhere around six billion.....close enough for a thread this size......

if both can't simultaneously be true, then one must be wrong......if I thought what I believed was wrong, I predict I would change what I believed (no one would believe something they thought was wrong, would they)......

when I look at the religions of the world (at least the top ten which covers I think, around 95% of the people on the planet) there are only three which teach #2 above - a deity which claims to be communicating to his creation through a written document......that would be Christianity, Islam and Judaism......the Hind, Buddhists, and Taoists make no such claim.....

they begin by saying the same deity created the universe......Islam and Judaism claim that humanity can obtain righteousness before God by their own actions.....I find that belief to be incredible, from what I have observed of humanity.....Christianity claims such righteousness is only available through the act of the deity.....that I can believe.....thus the screening is complete through step #3 above, leaving me with one alternative.....

Think you’re a billion off, lol. The population IS exploding so I don’t blame you for the error but there is 7.1 billion souls in existence this very moment. By all measures I’ve found the Christian population to be at 2.5 billion – a lot – but nowhere near half. Anyways…

That’s an interesting breakdown, and thanks for taking the time to explain. So you’re saying that Christianity is a better fit with you in part that it’s the only religion (of the big 3) that relies on a savior. That’s fair enough.

But I guess again going back to the OP – if an FDR supporter were to tell you wild, fantastic stories about FDR based off of memory (I say “fantastic” because obviously the things Jesus was said to have done were “fantastic” by most stretches of the imagination) would you press him/her for more evidence or would you simply believe it to be true?

Why were the authors of the bible given a “free pass” on authenticity when in most all other situations of a person retelling of a story that happened 60 years ago you’d be ultra-skeptical? This would be especially true if the story teller said things that would seemingly defy all of our standard notions of “reality” (ie you normally can’t walk on water, turn water into wine, resurrect, etc).

I guess what you’re saying is that the “proof” you have is that the bible really seems to strike a chord in you in a way that you can’t really fully describe in words; is that right?

 

[Steven_R]

they begin by saying the same deity created the universe......Islam and Judaism claim that humanity can obtain righteousness before God by their own actions.....I find that belief to be incredible, from what I have observed of humanity.....Christianity claims such righteousness is only available through the act of the deity.....that I can believe.....thus the screening is complete through step #3 above, leaving me with one alternative.....

I don't understand God's thinking on the subject. I can be an absolute dick to everyone and torment every soul I ever encounter, but if I accept Christ at the last minute I get a pass, but if I lead a peerless life and help and comfort and love everyone I meet but pick the wrong religion I'll roast in hell forever. That just makes no sense to me at all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have no problem with my Bible, only the interpretations of it by too many of the heretical social conservative sects.

 

[Darkwind]

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK on Christian beliefs as I respect the grand majority of Christians, see them to be wonderful people and wonderful contributors to the community, and have no right to say that what they believe is wrong.

However, I have a question; given that the New Testament was written ~30-60 years AFTER the death of Jesus Christ (correct me if I’m wrong), aren’t you at all concerned that the authors might have:

(1) Forgotten some key details, exact words, etc (I mean, do you remember what you ate for lunch March 3rd, 2009? I don’t)
(2) Altered some things to make the story more interesting

Fair question, right?

I mean, imagine if followers (ie disciples) of President Obama were to create a biography of his SIXTY years from now (specifically his followers) – from memory – don’t you think it’d be just a little bit skewed? Would you consider their account to be valid? I know I wouldn't, and would demand backup/proof! Would you?

These are just honest questions from a non-Christian. I'm not trying to be combative...

I often question the the new testament. I find that there is little in it that can be refuted. Please don't take that to mean that I follow church doctrine.

The two are wholly different animals, and even the pious are human and come with human frailties.

 

[Darkwind]

No, I personally DO NOT trust the Bible. It is filled with what I perceive to be contradictions and offers a very inaccurate snapshot of creation.

I do not understand why people would believe in a book, when anytime it is tested against reality, it fails.

IT has never failed. The failure is not in the word of God, but in your perceptions. Your tests are flawed. Much like a person who is to close to a problem emotionally. They cannot see that the problem is not with others, but with themselves.

 

[Darkwind]

Maybe all of these world religions share in common "universal truths".

Can everyone agree on a definition of "truth"? Is there such a thing as an absolute universal truth? Not even God is a universal truth since Buddhists, for example, do not believe in a personal god but in a buddha-nature (which I suppose would be the equivalent of a god-nature) that anyone through meditation and fasting can attain.

Why do you believe they are different?

Faith, no matter what form it takes, leads to God. Just as there are more than one road to any given city, but it still is the same city; there is more than one path to God.

 

[KevinWestern]

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK on Christian beliefs as I respect the grand majority of Christians, see them to be wonderful people and wonderful contributors to the community, and have no right to say that what they believe is wrong.

However, I have a question; given that the New Testament was written ~30-60 years AFTER the death of Jesus Christ (correct me if I’m wrong), aren’t you at all concerned that the authors might have:

(1) Forgotten some key details, exact words, etc (I mean, do you remember what you ate for lunch March 3rd, 2009? I don’t)
(2) Altered some things to make the story more interesting

Fair question, right?

I mean, imagine if followers (ie disciples) of President Obama were to create a biography of his SIXTY years from now (specifically his followers) – from memory – don’t you think it’d be just a little bit skewed? Would you consider their account to be valid? I know I wouldn't, and would demand backup/proof! Would you?

These are just honest questions from a non-Christian. I'm not trying to be combative...

I often question the the new testament. I find that there is little in it that can be refuted. Please don't take that to mean that I follow church doctrine.

The two are wholly different animals, and even the pious are human and come with human frailties.

Thanks Darkwind. Yea, it’s seems like a common theme is that people trust the bible because much of what it says tends to ring true. The good book – to many – is a “good book”. That seems logical enough.

However, I’d challenge some to consider that there have been many “good books”/masterpieces written over the course of the past 2,000 years with spot on observations of the human condition that really “ring true” deep within the souls of the people who take the time to read the text. Right?

And returning more to the OP, if someone who really admired a person (ie a disciple) said 60 years later that the person he absolutely admired walked on water, resurrected, etc I’d generally be pretty darn skeptical. I don’t doubt that Jesus was a fantastically enlightened individual, however it seems to me that it would be extremely logical for someone to slip in some supernatural/religious aspect to Jesus’s story simply to better promote the cause.

He preached a message of peace? Meh.
He preached a message of peace AND he could walk on water? Wow! Sign me up.

.