Why Do RWers Conflate Capitalism with Democracy?

[Article 15]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

People tend to conflate political systems and economic systems.

See: socialism, communism

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Shouldnt the fact that a communist nation has had to abandon communism for a more capitalist structure inform you about the weakness of the communist/socialist economic plan?

Um.... yeah... problem with that is this: China never implemented a communist system in recent history. Mao's movement quickly went from a revolutionary movement to an oligarchy- a totalitarian regime. Communism was never seen during the process.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Why Do RWers Conflate Capitalism with Democracy?

Not sure what specifically you're referring to, but perhaps it's because Capitalism contains Democracy like elements? for example the market (i.e. the people participating on it) essentially vote with their money with respect to winners and losers in the marketplace.

I was going to say that.

I have a quickie run down of capitalism that might help those don't don't have a broad understanding in how it supports democracy and individualism but it's not a RW link. I'd recomend taking the tour real quick. Some may not agree with what is said but it should give a big head start to describing where the other side is coming from...

The Capitalism Site : Laissez-faire Capitalism is the social system based on the principle of inalienable individual rights.
(see "visual tour")

yeah..... 'hands off' has always led to the lower classes getting bent over and big corporations running the government. The last 200 years of history demonstrate that.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Laissez-Faire fails because it falsely assumes everyone is moral and only wants to make a 'fair' profit while not exploiting his neighbor.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

This is something they do, but you're a little off target on what the actual problem is, which is conflate Socialism with Communism.

Communism is a particularly radical totalitarian form of government which aims to form an egalitarian society. It cannot coexist with democracy.

Fail. Communism is a subset of the democratic type of governance. It's usually a mixed democracy, featuring both direct (popular vote) and representative aspects. It tends to be mostly direct with a representative council administering over matters such as public works, common defense, etc. Communism sees it as ideal for the state to whither away to only bare essentials. Communism can include or exclude other elements, such as federated system of cooperation between groups (in which case it begins to resemble a confederation of communist States), constitutional limits on the power of the collective through either popular or representative action to protect the individual (sound familiar?), and varying degrees to which private enterprise and property is recognized.

Communism was the way tribes and villages lived a long time ago, before the specialization of labour became necessary. That division of labour could, ideally, be reduced or eliminated through newer technological developments. That is why Utopian thought is oft futuristic and sees machines as a means to reduce or eliminate the need for human menial labour.

Most successful models have not been truly communistic, but rather remained in a socialist state of development, possibly due to both technological and social/human limitations. Oft there is a mixed economy featuring both collective and private property and industry.

"Socialism," the buzz-word of late for the righties, is a concept. It's in the eye of the beholder when a country becomes "Socialist" and not just a free-market economy which contains social programs.

In the Marxian tradition, as soon as you have such programs and attributes, you are, by definition, entering a socialist stage of socioeconomic development. It'sa matter of how one defines 'socialism' at that point.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

People tend to conflate political systems and economic systems.

See: socialism, communism

When one speaks of a socioeconomic system, it's not really conflating the matter, is it? Communism is a socioeconomic system, and socialism is a socioeconomic stage of development.

Again, using Marxian lexicon.

 

[Article 15]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

People tend to conflate political systems and economic systems.

See: socialism, communism

When one speaks of a socioeconomic system, it's not really conflating the matter, is it? Communism is a socioeconomic system, and socialism is a socioeconomic stage of development.

Again, using Marxian lexicon.

What are you trying to do make me use my brain or something?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I'm sorry. I forgot that's an alien concept you you

I think Nancy has some botox left over if you need something for that headache

 

[Article 15]

I'm sorry. I forgot that's an alien concept you you

I think Nancy has some botox left over if you need something for that headache

I'll just burn some weed ... it's cheaper and less embarrassing.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

For the record and any LEO reading this thread, 'weed' is N37Sp34|< for tobacco, right A15?

 

[Article 15]

For the record and any LEO reading this thread, 'weed' is N37Sp34|< for tobacco, right A15?

Exactly.

 

[Joe Steel]

Why Do RWers Conflate Capitalism with Democracy?

Not sure what specifically you're referring to, but perhaps it's because Capitalism contains Democracy like elements? for example the market (i.e. the people participating on it) essentially vote with their money with respect to winners and losers in the marketplace.

Or because powerful special interests manipulate the rules to benefit themselves at others' expense.

 

[mudwhistle]

Save the false platitudes and talking points for some RW schmuck...answer the question.

This isn't China....they don't have to answer anything.

 

[Joe Steel]

I have a quickie run down of capitalism that might help those don't don't have a broad understanding in how it supports democracy and individualism but it's not a RW link. I'd recomend taking the tour real quick. Some may not agree with what is said but it should give a big head start to describing where the other side is coming from...

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

 

[Annie]

I have a quickie run down of capitalism that might help those don't don't have a broad understanding in how it supports democracy and individualism but it's not a RW link. I'd recomend taking the tour real quick. Some may not agree with what is said but it should give a big head start to describing where the other side is coming from...

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. Pure capitalism, like pure democracy isn't viable in a diverse, well-populated area. With adjustments both have worked better than any other systems so far, for the good of the many.

 

[Joe Steel]

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. Pure capitalism, like pure democracy isn't viable in a diverse, well-populated area. With adjustments both have worked better than any other systems so far, for the good of the many.

Marx said capitalism is a transitory state. It's what we have until we're ready for something better. It's certainly not the ultimate in human achievement as some seem to think it is.

 

[mudwhistle]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

This is something they do, but you're a little off target on what the actual problem is, which is conflate Socialism with Communism.

Communism is a particularly radical totalitarian form of government which aims to form an egalitarian society. It cannot coexist with democracy.

"Socialism," the buzz-word of late for the righties, is a concept. It's in the eye of the beholder when a country becomes "Socialist" and not just a free-market economy which contains social programs.

"Socialist" policies we have here in the U.S. include the highway system, police/fire/ambulance, NIH, FBI/CIA, and... drumroll... The military! They're all "Socialist." They are paid for out of the general fund and are for the benefit of everyone.

So why we're suddenly "Socialist" because we want to pass what's actually a very moderate healthcare reform plan, beats me. Even if it is "Socialist," that's not necessarily a bad or evil thing. JMO fellas.

I have a suggestion for those who love Socialism. Join the military and see how you like it.

Being in the military means you give up some of your rights. One of is freedom to say and do anything you wish. Also freedom to live where you wish and work where you wish. If they decide you need to move to some shit-hole and get shot at then you have a choice....shut the fuck up and go, get pregnant, or become openly gay. You do have ways out of the military. You do not have any way out of Socialism if that is what your economy is based on other then choosing not to be an earner. You can always file for unemployment or welfare I guess.....or join one of Obama's favorite unions.

I would say move to Oklahoma or Louisiana but that's just too much to ask anyone to do.

 

[Annie]

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. Pure capitalism, like pure democracy isn't viable in a diverse, well-populated area. With adjustments both have worked better than any other systems so far, for the good of the many.

Marx said capitalism is a transitory state. It's what we have until we're ready for something better. It's certainly not the ultimate in human achievement as some seem to think it is.

Then we await 'something better' that may come along. What we do know is that socialism and communism are not good replacements.

 

[Joe Steel]

Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. Pure capitalism, like pure democracy isn't viable in a diverse, well-populated area. With adjustments both have worked better than any other systems so far, for the good of the many.

Marx said capitalism is a transitory state. It's what we have until we're ready for something better. It's certainly not the ultimate in human achievement as some seem to think it is.

Then we await 'something better' that may come along. What we do know is that socialism and communism are not good replacements.

Our most prominent example of what we conceive to be communism was the Soviet Union. I've read, though, that Marx would not have recognized it as the communism he imagined. I tend to agree. The communism we have seen is not all that it could be so I'm not willing to say it's not a good replacement for capitalism.

While we're waiting for deliverance, I say we take a look at the social democracies of Western Europe. They're certainly not communist and not even socialist but they reflect a socially-aware kind of capitalism which would serve America far better than the abomination we have now.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Laissez-Faire fails because it falsely assumes everyone is moral and only wants to make a 'fair' profit while not exploiting his neighbor.

It does not

See Adam Smith

Greed is the motivating factor behind man with the free market the most efficient means to control that greed:

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. "

"The real and effectual discipline which is exercised over a workman is that of his customers. It is the fear of losing their employment which restrains his frauds and corrects his negligence. "