Why Do RWers Conflate Capitalism with Democracy?

[Joe Steel]

Laissez-Faire fails because it falsely assumes everyone is moral and only wants to make a 'fair' profit while not exploiting his neighbor.

It does not

See Adam Smith

Greed is the motivating factor behind man with the free market the most efficient means to control that greed:

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. "

"The real and effectual discipline which is exercised over a workman is that of his customers. It is the fear of losing their employment which restrains his frauds and corrects his negligence. "

Greed makes free-market capitalism efficient. Law makes it equitable. Socialism is created by law and is the manifestation of morality.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Shouldnt the fact that a communist nation has had to abandon communism for a more capitalist structure inform you about the weakness of the communist/socialist economic plan?

Um.... yeah... problem with that is this: China never implemented a communist system in recent history. Mao's movement quickly went from a revolutionary movement to an oligarchy- a totalitarian regime. Communism was never seen during the process.

Except- that is how a communist state is formed. They were totalitarian by necessity for the transition to a communist state,

Communism is the end stage of the process. No state can be Communist, instantly

Marx called for the "dictatorship of the proletariat" for the transition from capitalism to communism

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[mudwhistle]

Marx said capitalism is a transitory state. It's what we have until we're ready for something better. It's certainly not the ultimate in human achievement as some seem to think it is.

Then we await 'something better' that may come along. What we do know is that socialism and communism are not good replacements.

Our most prominent example of what we conceive to be communism was the Soviet Union. I've read, though, that Marx would not have recognized it as the communism he imagined. I tend to agree. The communism we have seen is not all that it could be so I'm not willing to say it's not a good replacement for capitalism.

While we're waiting for deliverance, I say we take a look at the social democracies of Western Europe. They're certainly not communist and not even socialist but they reflect a socially-aware kind of capitalism which would serve America far better than the abomination we have now.

The biggest problem they seem to have is abuse from beneficiaries and from government corruption. However they don't have to deal with the huge influx of illegal aliens we're dealing with right now, nor are they dealing with the pilfering of their Social Security funds by politicians. Social Security is just a big Ponsy scheme.

A move to socialism in the United States will cause a massive flow of our retirement funds to somewhere around 30 million new citizens which would meet or exceed the influx of East Germans into the FRG. This erased their retirement fund for the foreseeable future of which many of them have been complaining about for years. The difference being that it was a one time thing for them. But they aren't in the same geopolitical state we are with Mexico and Central America on our Southern border.

Once Obama gets amnesty we're screwed. We're already going into a hole with Baby-boomers in the verge of retirement. The time is not right for a move to socialism. Maybe in about 10 years but only if it's fair and most of all honest which I doubt the Democrats of today can be.

 

[DiamondDave]

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. Pure capitalism, like pure democracy isn't viable in a diverse, well-populated area. With adjustments both have worked better than any other systems so far, for the good of the many.

Marx said capitalism is a transitory state. It's what we have until we're ready for something better. It's certainly not the ultimate in human achievement as some seem to think it is.

Marx was a moron

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

Seriously.. WTF are you talking about?

What... was CONFLATE on your fortune cookie last night?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I have a quickie run down of capitalism that might help those don't don't have a broad understanding in how it supports democracy and individualism but it's not a RW link. I'd recomend taking the tour real quick. Some may not agree with what is said but it should give a big head start to describing where the other side is coming from...

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

And you're an idiot.

 

[mudwhistle]

I have a quickie run down of capitalism that might help those don't don't have a broad understanding in how it supports democracy and individualism but it's not a RW link. I'd recomend taking the tour real quick. Some may not agree with what is said but it should give a big head start to describing where the other side is coming from...

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

So you say. I think you're confusing *Cronyism* with Capitalism.

I hope you're not one of those that feels profits are evil.

 

[editec]

Shouldnt the fact that a communist nation has had to abandon communism for a more capitalist structure inform you about the weakness of the communist/socialist economic plan?

Doesn't the fact that a still totalitarian nation, one still clinging to the communist notions of how governments should be one party comprised of an elite classm, inform us that capitalism and democracy really have nothing to do with one another?

Of course capitalism is a superior economic system.

Not only does it usually create more wealth and spread it around better than most systems, but it can exist and thrive in any sort of government system, ranging from complete totalitarianism, like Pappa Doc's Haiti, or it can just as easily thrive in a cradle-to-grave welfare state like Sweden.


There is NO DOUBT in my mind that of all the economic systems devised by mankind, CAPITALISM offers the most advantages.

What some of us fail to realize (although for the life of me I cannot understand how we miss it) is that CAPITALISM is the cockroach (and I mean that as a compliment, cockroaches are an amazingly adapatable species) of economic systems.

Capitalism is so vibrant and so adaptable that it can exist (more or less) under any government that doesn't set out to destroy it.

It can even exist in CHINA, which is still (at least as far as its government is concerned) a one-party communist totalitarian state.

Now, we all know that China cannot STILL be a communist state, (because communiism doesn't tolerate private ownership of the means of production, and China obviously does) but as far as the government CHINA? It is CLEARLY NOT A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT

 

[Neotrotsky]

Laissez-Faire fails because it falsely assumes everyone is moral and only wants to make a 'fair' profit while not exploiting his neighbor.

It does not

See Adam Smith

Greed is the motivating factor behind man with the free market the most efficient means to control that greed:

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. "

"The real and effectual discipline which is exercised over a workman is that of his customers. It is the fear of losing their employment which restrains his frauds and corrects his negligence. "

Greed makes free-market capitalism efficient. Law makes it equitable. Socialism is created by law and is the manifestation of morality.

Laws made by imperfect man are imperfect. Therefore Socialism is imperfect.
Manifestation of morality?- we see how well that has worked in some past socialist states.

Equality before the "eyes of the law" and equity of results are different things. By the way, no where in the US Constitution does it call for "equity of results".. No matter how hard the left tries to make it so,,,

 

[Joe Steel]

Capitalism is not democracy. Capitalism is a jungle where only the strong survive. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog world of greed and corruption where no one is treated fairly except when all other modes of behavior have failed.

So you say. I think you're confusing *Cronyism* with Capitalism.

I hope you're not one of those that feels profits are evil.

Profits are a necessary evil. Until we have a better way, they provide guidance in allocating resources.

 

[Joe Steel]

Our most prominent example of what we conceive to be communism was the Soviet Union. I've read, though, that Marx would not have recognized it as the communism he imagined. I tend to agree. The communism we have seen is not all that it could be so I'm not willing to say it's not a good replacement for capitalism.

While we're waiting for deliverance, I say we take a look at the social democracies of Western Europe. They're certainly not communist and not even socialist but they reflect a socially-aware kind of capitalism which would serve America far better than the abomination we have now.

The biggest problem they seem to have is abuse from beneficiaries and from government corruption. However they don't have to deal with the huge influx of illegal aliens we're dealing with right now, nor are they dealing with the pilfering of their Social Security funds by politicians. Social Security is just a big Ponsy scheme.

A move to socialism in the United States will cause a massive flow of our retirement funds to somewhere around 30 million new citizens which would meet or exceed the influx of East Germans into the FRG. This erased their retirement fund for the foreseeable future of which many of them have been complaining about for years. The difference being that it was a one time thing for them. But they aren't in the same geopolitical state we are with Mexico and Central America on our Southern border.

Once Obama gets amnesty we're screwed. We're already going into a hole with Baby-boomers in the verge of retirement. The time is not right for a move to socialism. Maybe in about 10 years but only if it's fair and most of all honest which I doubt the Democrats of today can be.

So your biggest objection to socialism is social insurance?

 

[Darkwind]

Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. Pure capitalism, like pure democracy isn't viable in a diverse, well-populated area. With adjustments both have worked better than any other systems so far, for the good of the many.

Marx said capitalism is a transitory state. It's what we have until we're ready for something better. It's certainly not the ultimate in human achievement as some seem to think it is.

Marx was a moron

What is amusing is that every time one of these marx followers pokes their head up and they are asked with what they would replace capitalism, they drop back into their hole.

I'd still like to at least read what system they think would best replace capitalism.

 

[Joe Steel]

Greed makes free-market capitalism efficient. Law makes it equitable. Socialism is created by law and is the manifestation of morality.

Laws made by imperfect man are imperfect. Therefore Socialism is imperfect.
Manifestation of morality?- we see how well that has worked in some past socialist states.

Morality is a common sense of right and wrong. As a community, we implement our morality through law and it is as near perfect as men can make it.

Equality before the "eyes of the law" and equity of results are different things. By the way, no where in the US Constitution does it call for "equity of results".. No matter how hard the left tries to make it so,,,

"Equitable."

I said "equitable" not "equal." They are different. Equality demands identical results. Equity demands only fair results.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Greed makes free-market capitalism efficient. Law makes it equitable. Socialism is created by law and is the manifestation of morality.

Laws made by imperfect man are imperfect. Therefore Socialism is imperfect.
Manifestation of morality?- we see how well that has worked in some past socialist states.

Morality is a common sense of right and wrong. As a community, we implement our morality through law and it is as near perfect as men can make it.

Equality before the "eyes of the law" and equity of results are different things. By the way, no where in the US Constitution does it call for "equity of results".. No matter how hard the left tries to make it so,,,

"Equitable."

I said "equitable" not "equal." They are different. Equality demands identical results. Equity demands only fair results.

and I said "equality before the eyes of the law" which is fairness
Socialism looks for "equity of results"; the US Constitution does not

 

[☭proletarian☭]

They aren't the same.

What's wrong with you?

Why don't you move to China where Capitalism is THRIVING?

Seriously...whats wrong with you?

This is something they do, but you're a little off target on what the actual problem is, which is conflate Socialism with Communism.

Communism is a particularly radical totalitarian form of government which aims to form an egalitarian society. It cannot coexist with democracy.

"Socialism," the buzz-word of late for the righties, is a concept. It's in the eye of the beholder when a country becomes "Socialist" and not just a free-market economy which contains social programs.

"Socialist" policies we have here in the U.S. include the highway system, police/fire/ambulance, NIH, FBI/CIA, and... drumroll... The military! They're all "Socialist." They are paid for out of the general fund and are for the benefit of everyone.

So why we're suddenly "Socialist" because we want to pass what's actually a very moderate healthcare reform plan, beats me. Even if it is "Socialist," that's not necessarily a bad or evil thing. JMO fellas.

I have a suggestion for those who love Socialism. Join the military and see how you like it.

Being in the military means you give up some of your rights. One of is freedom to say and do anything you wish. Also freedom to live where you wish and work where you wish. If they decide you need to move to some shit-hole and get shot at then you have a choice....shut the fuck up and go, get pregnant, or become openly gay. You do have ways out of the military. You do not have any way out of Socialism if that is what your economy is based on other then choosing not to be an earner. You can always file for unemployment or welfare I guess.....or join one of Obama's favorite unions.

I would say move to Oklahoma or Louisiana but that's just too much to ask anyone to do.

Did you just compare the authoritarian structure of the military to the democratic structure of a socialist society?


The military's internal affairs are socialist, now?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Laissez-Faire fails because it falsely assumes everyone is moral and only wants to make a 'fair' profit while not exploiting his neighbor.

It does not

See Adam Smith

Greed is the motivating factor behind man with the free market the most efficient means to control that greed:

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. "

"The real and effectual discipline which is exercised over a workman is that of his customers. It is the fear of losing their employment which restrains his frauds and corrects his negligence. "

So it revels in the exploitation of the weak?


That's awesome...

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Shouldnt the fact that a communist nation has had to abandon communism for a more capitalist structure inform you about the weakness of the communist/socialist economic plan?

Um.... yeah... problem with that is this: China never implemented a communist system in recent history. Mao's movement quickly went from a revolutionary movement to an oligarchy- a totalitarian regime. Communism was never seen during the process.

Except- that is how a communist state is formed. They were totalitarian by necessity for the transition to a communist state,

Communism is the end stage of the process. No state can be Communist, instantly

Marx called for the "dictatorship of the proletariat" for the transition from capitalism to communism

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fail.

No communist system, ever emerged from a totalitarian system. No Communist society can ever emerge from an oligarchy. A communist society cannot be forced into existence.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Some light reading for neo

In Marxism, the dictatorship of the proletariat denotes the transitional socialist State between the capitalist class society and the classless communist society. During the transition, the State can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat,[1] The term, dictatorship, refers to the Classical Roman dictatura concept — republican and constitutional with absolute power while Marx's dictatorship of proletariat is revolutionary government with majority (proletarian) support which wield absolute power to replace the incumbent capitalist economic system and its socio-political supports, i.e. the “dictatorship of the bourgeoisie"

Dictatorship of the proletariat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[☭proletarian☭]

dictatorship of the proletariat (Marxist doctrine) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

in Marxism, rule by the proletariat—the economic and social class consisting of industrial workers who derive income solely from their labour—during the transitional phase between the abolition of capitalism and the establishment of communism. During this transition, the proletariat is to suppress resistance to the socialist revolution by the bourgeoisie, destroy the social relations of production underlying the class system, and create a new, classless society.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Communism is a classless society?

Then why do the workers and the leaders lead entirely different lives in ALL Communist societies?

You people are fucking stupid. REALLY stupid.