Why are we so afraid to admit the obvious?

[JoeB131]

No, Silly Wabbit. If we had single payer, we'd have fully rationed government health care.

we have rationed health care now.. But it's rationed by big corporations looking to make a profit off your misery. Trust me, stupid, you truly haven't lived until you've tried to get an insurance company to pay for a really expensive procedure.

We might pay less (doubtful), but we'd certainly not get health care.

again, the rest of the world has single payer. They live longer, have lower infant mortality rates and spend a lot less per capita. So yeah, I guess it would never work, except for the rest of the world which does it that way.

We'd get the equivalent of a long wait in the DMV line hoping our number gets called before we die of a fatal disease.

Wow, you guys are still using that metaphor? When was the last time you were down at the DMV? Last time I was down was May of this year. I could have done it by mail, but I wanted a more current picture on my ID. They had me in and out in less than 15 minutes. The time previous to that was even less in 2014.

Meanwhile, right next to that is a Comcast office. Whenever I've had to go there, it's usually been a 30 minute wait to talk to someone who was not the least bit helpful.

 

[Norman]

Then we linked our economy to the Wall Street Casino, where great companies like Sears got destroyed by speculation and greed. This is a good in your world? I don't think so.

Is that actually something "we" did? For I think that 99.95 percent of the population had nothing to do with that.

That, the financialization of the industry, is a long story, which began in earnest with Reagan, basically the project to eliminate workers from the income distribution as much as possible, while enabling the plutocrats to make money out of money. That is why 40% of corporate earnings in the U.S. of A. go to financial institutions, when a healthy proportion should be an order of magnitude smaller. That entailed that Republicans, who drove the development, had nothing to offer the vast majority of people, and thus they settled ever more for the Southern Strategy of peddling and exploiting grievances, resentments, and hate, while also seeing to it that white males in non-supervisory positions didn't get a raise, in real terms, since the late 1970s. So, from Atwater to Reagan to the Trumpy runs a straight line of sowing hatred, exploiting fears and grievances, and that shall not, under any circumstances, be talked about. Never, ever. And that's also why we see our righty friends squealing, screaming, and in spluttering apoplexy whenever their racism is being pointed out.

You should be happy that white males are being screwed over, that is what YOUR party wants.

Let’s see you disown the racists in your party and see how many thousands of voters you have left nationwide.

If there is one group that I wouldn't piss off, it's white males. These guys used to put their enemies into gas chambers. They have always been slow to get ticked off, but it's getting there.

So let them up the heat, it won't end well. Remember, all the leftist bullshit goes on only so long as the white males allow it.

 

[ptbw forever]

The New Black Panther Party are Nazis and they are showing up campaigning for Abrams, I guess that means Democrats are Nazis.

Um, the New Black Panthers are bad performance art... I think they have like 5 members...

But you keep watching that Fox News, they'll tell you what to be scared of while the One Percent rips you off.

Democrats are the 1%, retard.

 

[boedicca]

No, Silly Wabbit. If we had single payer, we'd have fully rationed government health care.

we have rationed health care now.. But it's rationed by big corporations looking to make a profit off your misery. Trust me, stupid, you truly haven't lived until you've tried to get an insurance company to pay for a really expensive procedure.

We might pay less (doubtful), but we'd certainly not get health care.

again, the rest of the world has single payer. They live longer, have lower infant mortality rates and spend a lot less per capita. So yeah, I guess it would never work, except for the rest of the world which does it that way.

We'd get the equivalent of a long wait in the DMV line hoping our number gets called before we die of a fatal disease.

Wow, you guys are still using that metaphor? When was the last time you were down at the DMV? Last time I was down was May of this year. I could have done it by mail, but I wanted a more current picture on my ID. They had me in and out in less than 15 minutes. The time previous to that was even less in 2014.

Meanwhile, right next to that is a Comcast office. Whenever I've had to go there, it's usually been a 30 minute wait to talk to someone who was not the least bit helpful.

Here's the bottom line. I'm perfectly happy for other people to choose the healthcare they want. You want to force everyone to have the healthcare you think they should have.

Which POV is more ethical?

 

[JoeB131]

Here's the bottom line. I'm perfectly happy for other people to choose the healthcare they want. You want to force everyone to have the healthcare you think they should have.

Which POV is more ethical?

That's an easy one.

You want only people who can afford health care to have it, and fuck those poor people.

I think that everyone should have easy access to health care that doesn't bankrupt them when they get sick.

My POV is VASTLY more ethical. It isn't based on "I"ve got mine, Fuck You!" which should be the new motto of the GOP.

 

[sparky]

& died on the Gub'Mit dime......~S~

 

[easyt65]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

I applaud your pointing out that obvious, that both sides are responsible for the violence. You are pointing out the 'puppet's, if you will, but not the 'puppet masters'.

Many Americans have been so massively been 'indoctrinated' that they REFUSE to see how both sides have and continue to manipulate us - DIVIDE US (A Saul Alensky Principle).

(Many) Americans have become so insanely partisan that they can not see our politicians have us fighting most of the time about whose politicians are LESS corrupt / criminal rather that holding ALL of them accountable to the same standards.

Your politician is a criminal.
Yours it.
Uh-Uh, yours is.

We will often defend these f*errs to an insane degree. For example, there are some Democrats who still claim Hillary broke no laws despite the fact that the FBI publicly declared they had recovered over 1500 official subpoenaed documents (Obstruction) that were legally required to be turner in but which she never had (violations of the FOIA & Federal Records Act)...and more.



Controlling and manipulating a country is easier if you divide them, get them to fight amongst themselves...to the point they will actually DEFEND their own party's politicians proven to have committed crimes.

 

[JoeB131]

We will often defend these f*errs to an insane degree. For example, there are some Democrats who still claim Hillary broke no laws despite the fact that the FBI publicly declared they had recovered over 1500 official subpoenaed documents (Obstruction) that were legally required to be turner in but which she never had (violations of the FOIA & Federal Records Act)...and more.

And who died because of that? Who lost their house and fortune?

Again, this is the craziness of your side. Bill Clinton lies about getting a blow job and he needs to be impeached... Bush lied about Saddam having weapons of mass destruction and got hundreds of thousands of people killed. And well, that's just fine.

And some useful idiot like Mac will huff and puff about partisanship.

 

[Mac1958]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

I applaud your pointing out that obvious, that both sides are responsible for the violence. You are pointing out the 'puppet's, if you will, but not the 'puppet masters'.

Many Americans have been so massively been 'indoctrinated' that they REFUSE to see how both sides have and continue to manipulate us - DIVIDE US (A Saul Alensky Principle).

(Many) Americans have become so insanely partisan that they can not see our politicians have us fighting most of the time about whose politicians are LESS corrupt / criminal rather that holding ALL of them accountable to the same standards.

Your politician is a criminal.
Yours it.
Uh-Uh, yours is.

We will often defend these f*errs to an insane degree. For example, there are some Democrats who still claim Hillary broke no laws despite the fact that the FBI publicly declared they had recovered over 1500 official subpoenaed documents (Obstruction) that were legally required to be turner in but which she never had (violations of the FOIA & Federal Records Act)...and more.



Controlling and manipulating a country is easier if you divide them, get them to fight amongst themselves...to the point they will actually DEFEND their own party's politicians proven to have committed crimes.

Great.

What would be a good example of my point from the Right?
.

 

[boedicca]

Here's the bottom line. I'm perfectly happy for other people to choose the healthcare they want. You want to force everyone to have the healthcare you think they should have.

Which POV is more ethical?

That's an easy one.

You want only people who can afford health care to have it, and fuck those poor people.

I think that everyone should have easy access to health care that doesn't bankrupt them when they get sick.

My POV is VASTLY more ethical. It isn't based on "I"ve got mine, Fuck You!" which should be the new motto of the GOP.

B'loney. What I want is for people to be able to support themselves and their families with decent jobs instead of being government dependents.

 

[JoeB131]

B'loney. What I want is for people to be able to support themselves and their families with decent jobs instead of being government dependents.

Okay, you don't get there with Capitalism, then.

Sorry, you just don't. Capitalism treats labor like another commodity, something you get at the cheapest price possible, like boxes or hex nuts. Capitalism BY DESIGN requires a certain number of people to be too poor to support themselves.

 

[impuretrash]

B'loney. What I want is for people to be able to support themselves and their families with decent jobs instead of being government dependents.

Okay, you don't get there with Capitalism, then.

Sorry, you just don't. Capitalism treats labor like another commodity, something you get at the cheapest price possible, like boxes or hex nuts. Capitalism BY DESIGN requires a certain number of people to be too poor to support themselves.

And socialism is going to make poor people magically disappear?

 

[JoeB131]

And socialism is going to make poor people magically disappear?

Why do you act like those are the only two choices on the menu?

Or that a pure form of either has ever existed?

I'm all for the in-between we had (at least for white people) between WWII and the 1980's... working folks belong to unions and got fair pay and corporations could make money as long as they didn't cheat consumers, workers or ruin the environment.... that kind of worked out just fine.

 

[impuretrash]

And socialism is going to make poor people magically disappear?

Why do you act like those are the only two choices on the menu?

Or that a pure form of either has ever existed?

I'm all for the in-between we had (at least for white people) between WWII and the 1980's... working folks belong to unions and got fair pay and corporations could make money as long as they didn't cheat consumers, workers or ruin the environment.... that kind of worked out just fine.

There's always going to be people who don't want or can't work though no matter what system is in place.

 

[boedicca]

B'loney. What I want is for people to be able to support themselves and their families with decent jobs instead of being government dependents.

Okay, you don't get there with Capitalism, then.

Sorry, you just don't. Capitalism treats labor like another commodity, something you get at the cheapest price possible, like boxes or hex nuts. Capitalism BY DESIGN requires a certain number of people to be too poor to support themselves.

No, it is you Totalitarians that treat labor in such a utilitarian, fungible manner as you have no respect for the individual.

Capitalism pays fair wages based on the value of the labor. Highly skilled people with specialized knowledge command higher compensation.

 

[boedicca]

B'loney. What I want is for people to be able to support themselves and their families with decent jobs instead of being government dependents.

Okay, you don't get there with Capitalism, then.

Sorry, you just don't. Capitalism treats labor like another commodity, something you get at the cheapest price possible, like boxes or hex nuts. Capitalism BY DESIGN requires a certain number of people to be too poor to support themselves.

And socialism is going to make poor people magically disappear?

Well, they do tend to make millions "disappear", although not all of them are poor.

 

[JoeB131]

There's always going to be people who don't want or can't work though no matter what system is in place.

Perhaps... and of course, under a "capitalist" system, the answer is, "Let them starve!" Which is kind of fucked up.

 

[edward37]

There's always going to be people who don't want or can't work though no matter what system is in place.

Perhaps... and of course, under a "capitalist" system, the answer is, "Let them starve!" Which is kind of fucked up.

The Obvious
On Friday’s broadcast of “Real Time,” Maher said this was the week it started “moving a little faster”— with President Donald Trump’s appointment of his “personal protector” Matthew Whitaker as acting attorney general.

Maher then reviewed his 2017 “dictator checklist” to make his point:

“You are a narcissist who likes to see his name and face on buildings. You appoint family members to positions of power. You hold rallies even when you’re not running, and they are scary. You talk about jailing the press and political opponents.

 

[JoeB131]

The Obvious
On Friday’s broadcast of “Real Time,” Maher said this was the week it started “moving a little faster”— with President Donald Trump’s appointment of his “personal protector” Matthew Whitaker as acting attorney general.

Maher then reviewed his 2017 “dictator checklist” to make his point:

“You are a narcissist who likes to see his name and face on buildings. You appoint family members to positions of power. You hold rallies even when you’re not running, and they are scary. You talk about jailing the press and political opponents.

I don't take Maher seriously, given he is just as likely to embrace the same Islamophobic horseshit that Trump panders to.

The problem here isn't Trump, the problem is that too many of us are pretending this is fine.

 

[there4eyeM]

Defense is collective. It isn't a big leap that defending health would be as well.