Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? is it true story?

[Powerman]

You said: "Jesus had to be crucified to fulfill the scriptures." So obviously you were talking about some scripture.
So let me explain this again. God foreknew the choices that the Jewish leaders, Pilate, etc. etc., as free moral agents, were going to make. Yes, Christ's death and resurrection were God's chosen method of salvation, but nowhere did He force any of those people to make the choices they made; all of them acted out of their own free will to make the choices they made.



And I'm saying, as the Bible says, that people have free will, as free moral agents. I don't know how I'm going to beat that into you.

OK this is just sillyness. Now it's no longer predestination, it's just a matter of God being a great foreseer of things to come. That's ironic. If I didn't know any better I would think that God had a little trouble foreseeing some things.

How do you explain the whole Great Flood story? The whole premise of the story is God didn't have the foresight to know that his own creation would fail. After reflection he decided to spare the human race but he certainly wouldn't create an entire race only to kill everyone now would he?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

First, Barabbas was a murder and an insurrectionist, not a rapist.

Second, the Jews (more specifically, the Jewish leaders of the Sanhedrin) were the ones who handed him over to Pilate. Pilate still had to make the ultimate decision. The hand-washing thing did not absolve him of responsibility. That's why Jesus said "He who handed me over to you is guilty of the greater sin." (as opposed to Pilate's lesser sin of cooperation.)

Huh, so would you consider unjustly executing someone "sinful?"

If so...Unjust Hanging of Van Tuong Nguyen

 

[5stringJeff]

Huh, so would you consider unjustly executing someone "sinful?"

If so...Unjust Hanging of Van Tuong Nguyen

So you are comparing Jesus to a heroin dealer? Drug smuggling/dealing is a crime that leads directly to the harm of others (i.e. drug users). Jesus was without sin - even His enemies could not find that Jesus had ever done anything wrong.

Comparing golden apples with rotten oranges, my friend.

 

[5stringJeff]

OK this is just sillyness. Now it's no longer predestination, it's just a matter of God being a great foreseer of things to come. That's ironic. If I didn't know any better I would think that God had a little trouble foreseeing some things.

How do you explain the whole Great Flood story? The whole premise of the story is God didn't have the foresight to know that his own creation would fail. After reflection he decided to spare the human race but he certainly wouldn't create an entire race only to kill everyone now would he?

Except that He didn't kill everybody. He killed all but 8, and if you read a little bit deeper, you'll read that Noah was the only one of his age that was walking with God. The rest of the world was engaged in sinful behaviors of various sorts, and deserved the due punishment for their sins. It's not a lack of foreknowledge on God's part; it's God's judgment on a corrupt world.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

So you are comparing Jesus to a heroin dealer? Drug smuggling/dealing is a crime that leads directly to the harm of others (i.e. drug users). Jesus was without sin - even His enemies could not find that Jesus had ever done anything wrong.

Comparing golden apples with rotten oranges, my friend.

Not comparing the people genius. Comparing the situations. The crimes in both instances are non-violent. Jesus was guilty, in the eyes of the Roman state, of making false claims about being a god and a king and of disturbing the peace. To the Romans, he was a rabble-rouser.

 

[5stringJeff]

Not comparing the people genius. Comparing the situations. The crimes in both instances are non-violent. Jesus was guilty, in the eyes of the Roman state, of making false claims about being king and of disturbing the peace. To the Romans, he was a rabble-rouser.

First degree murder can be non-violent. Poison, for example, would be a very non-violent way of killing someone. But, if done with premeditated intent, it becomes a crime punishable by death.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

First degree murder can be non-violent. Poison, for example, would be a very non-violent way of killing someone. But, if done with premeditated intent, it becomes a crime punishable by death.

You're right. But Jesus didn't murder anybody and neither did Van Tuong Nguyen. What's your point? Surely you're smart enough to know that when I say, "non-violent" I mean there is "no victim." I guess not. From now on I'll clarify by saying "Crime with no victim." Happy?

 

[Powerman]

Except that He didn't kill everybody. He killed all but 8, and if you read a little bit deeper, you'll read that Noah was the only one of his age that was walking with God. The rest of the world was engaged in sinful behaviors of various sorts, and deserved the due punishment for their sins. It's not a lack of foreknowledge on God's part; it's God's judgment on a corrupt world.

But you're missing the point. If God can foresee everything then why did he create a world that he knew would be corrupt? Why not just put a little bit more work into the design. If God did exist I'd like to tell him that haste makes waste. Maybe if he would have worked on our design a bit more he wouldn't have had to commit genocide on all but 8 people. What a fucking idiot.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

But you're missing the point. If God can foresee everything then why did he create a world that he knew would be corrupt? Why not just put a little bit more work into the design. If God did exist I'd like to tell him that haste makes waste. Maybe if he would have worked on our design a bit more he wouldn't have had to commit genocide on all but 8 people. What a fucking idiot.

Powerman, this is going to go over like a turd in the punchbowl.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

But you're missing the point. If God can foresee everything then why did he create a world that he knew would be corrupt? Why not just put a little bit more work into the design. If God did exist I'd like to tell him that haste makes waste. Maybe if he would have worked on our design a bit more he wouldn't have had to commit genocide on all but 8 people. What a fucking idiot.

He wanted to give people a choice. The model is this: You will be judged, HOW you will be judged is up to you. If you can't understand this nuanced position then that's your problem. It's not illogical.

 

[5stringJeff]

You're right. But Jesus didn't murder anybody and neither did Van Tuong Nguyen. What's your point? Surely you're smart enough to know that when I say, "non-violent" I mean there is "no victim." I guess not. From now on I'll clarify by saying "Crime with no victim." Happy?

Drug dealing has no victims? Tell that to all the people who are addicted or overdose each day. Tell that to the broken families of drug addicts. Tell that to the people and businesses who have money or goods stolen from them so that an addict can get another hit.

 

[Powerman]

Drug dealing has no victims? Tell that to all the people who are addicted or overdose each day. Tell that to the broken families of drug addicts. Tell that to the people and businesses who have money or goods stolen from them so that an addict can get another hit.

Half of those problems are because drugs are illegal. And the other problems would not change either way if drugs were legal.

 

[5stringJeff]

But you're missing the point. If God can foresee everything then why did he create a world that he knew would be corrupt? Why not just put a little bit more work into the design. If God did exist I'd like to tell him that haste makes waste. Maybe if he would have worked on our design a bit more he wouldn't have had to commit genocide on all but 8 people.

To segue right back to another conversation, God gave everyone free will to decide whether or not to sin or to follow God. God's design was that people would respond to His offer of eternal life with love.

What a fucking idiot.

Interesting choice of words for someone who does not believe in Revelation:

Rev 16 "[T]hey cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

Rev 16 "Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done."

Rev 16 "And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible."

 

[Powerman]

He wanted to give people a choice. The model is this: You will be judged, HOW you will be judged is up to you. If you can't understand this nuanced position then that's your problem. It's not illogical.

We're not talking about judgement. What we're talking about is this alleged foresight that God has. If he had such foresight then why even create all these people in the first place? Why didn't he just create Noah and his family and save himself the trouble of flooding everything. Seems a bit excessive don't you think? Vulgar display of power from an imperfect God who was unhappy when his creation experiment didn't yield the results he wished to obtain? Perhaps.

 

[Powerman]

To segue right back to another conversation, God gave everyone free will to decide whether or not to sin or to follow God. God's design was that people would respond to His offer of eternal life with love.



Interesting choice of words for someone who does not believe in Revelation:

Rev 16 "[T]hey cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

Rev 16 "Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done."

Rev 16 "And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible."

If you're hoping to crush me by pulling out quotes from revelation then you're only making yourself look silly.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Drug dealing has no victims? Tell that to all the people who are addicted or overdose each day. Tell that to the broken families of drug addicts. Tell that to the people and businesses who have money or goods stolen from them so that an addict can get another hit.

Cigarette smokers are addicted to cigarettes and thousands die each year from smoking-related health problems. Should selling cigarettes be illegal?

There are also millions of crimes committed every year due totally to the fact that the people who commit them were drunk off of alcohol at the time. Should alcoholic beverages be illegal because of the crimes people commit while under the influence of them?

 

[5stringJeff]

If you're hoping to crush me by pulling out quotes from revelation then you're only making yourself look silly.

My point, which you obviously missed, is that you claim that Revelation is false, yet by cursing God, you are partially fulfilling the prophecy that men, in the end times, will curse God. It's called irony. It's also quite sad to see.

 

[Powerman]

My point, which you obviously missed, is that you claim that Revelation is false, yet by cursing God, you are partially fulfilling the prophecy that men, in the end times, will curse God. It's called irony. It's also quite sad to see.

Enough of this prophecy fullfillment foolishness. I'm not cursing God because I don't believe in him. If I did then I would be cursing God. Think of it as humor that is offensive to religious people. But honestly how can you not see the flaw here?

This God of yours has the foresight to know everything yet he still can't get it right? I'm not buying it.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

God foreknew the choices that the Jewish leaders, Pilate, etc. etc., as free moral agents, were going to make. Yes, Christ's death and resurrection were God's chosen method of salvation, but nowhere did He force any of those people to make the choices they made; all of them acted out of their own free will to make the choices they made.

I'm not sure you can have it both ways here because otherwise you open yourself to the possibility that God was wrong. If the Jews had free will, they could have chosen to save Jesus in which case God would have foreseen incorrectly. If God foresaw that the Jews would choose to have Jesus crucified, then the Jews really had no choice in the matter and therefore did not have free will.

Put it this way: If God created beings that could do something that God didn't expect, then God isn't omnipotent. If God created us knowing every single "choice" we would make, then we don't truly have free will since every choice we make was one that God created us to make.

Let me ask a related question: so what if all our choices are predetermined by God? At least our choices were made for us by an omnipotent being that is never wrong. Better that than some of the alternatives, right?

 

[Annie]

My point, which you obviously missed, is that you claim that Revelation is false, yet by cursing God, you are partially fulfilling the prophecy that men, in the end times, will curse God. It's called irony. It's also quite sad to see.

Jeff, I'm ignoring the Powerman and atheistic posts.

Most here, know where I'm coming from. Last Friday I went to teach my 7th graders about Catholic doctrine in religion class regarding evolution and God. What many probably do not know is that the 8th grade science/math teacher at our school is 'Lutheran', but not really, he's an evangelist. Which would be ok, if he really was science based or at least would adhere to the school's doctrine.

I've been teaching the same lesson for 7 years. Starts out, "I know you've been taught in science that evolution is currently the accepted explanation of how man achieved this place..." Hands started shooting up, "Mr. XXX says that that is a bunch of hooey!" Fluxomed I said, "You must have misunderstood, the Catholic doctrine accepts evolution regarding science, but also believes that God began the process of life..."

The students reiterated what they had been told. I went and got the principal, who met the same as me. We got the pastor to come in Monday. He finally acquiesed to the students, that they agreed with a literal interpretation of the bible. "Yes, they said." He said, "fine." "So the earth is the center of the universe and the weatherman is correct in 'sunset' and 'sunrise' in that the sun revolves around the earth?" "No, that is silly, the earth turns on its axis." So the pastor asked, "Why the literal for creationism, especially when there is the 7 day story and the Adam and Eve story? Yet, you discount the literal explanation of the earth as the center of the universe?" Ok, they could deal with a prime mover and evolution. I think the 8th grade science teacher's days are numbered...