Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
rtwngAvngr said:Think of it this way: There's a football game, we know someone will win, we may even know which team it is. What YOU decide is WHICH TEAM YOU'RE ON.
Powerman said:This is a terrible analogy. You can't break things of cosmic proportion down to football analogies. I think football is great but this doesn't make any sense to me. The choices we make are obviously causal. It has nothing to do with some preordained supernatural hex.
Powerman said:No. You can't have free will if things are predestined. That's very simple. Maybe you can explain to me how you can have both. I believe in the freedom of choice. However I do not believe in predestination. Some things may be inevitable but things are not predestined.
gop_jeff said:Predestination is mentioned in the Bible along with God's foreknowledge. See Romans 8:29: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." In other words, God knew ahead of time that X number of people would choose to believe in Christ; those people He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. In other words, God does not predetermine the status of our salvation; he predetermines that those who believe "shall be like Him." (1 John 3:2) The individual makes the choice whether to believe or not.
Powerman said:Yeah I'm not talking about whether or not you believe or not. I'm talking about a particular situation. Jesus had to be crucified to fulfill the scriptures. Therefor people were not making choices of their own volition. Those choices weren't really choices if you believe that the scripture had to be fullfilled. Seems pretty simple to me.
gop_jeff said:The scriptures you refer to are different prophecies. In such cases, the prophet spoke after receiving a revelation from God. Now God Himself is not bound by time, and is outside of time; the events of A.D. 2005, 700 B.C., or A.D. 30 are all occurring simultaneously, in a matter of speaking, from God's perspective. So when God gives a prophet the revelation that the Messiah will be cut off from his people, He already knows that it will happen. So these prophecies are God's foreknowledge of events that will happen, not His will forcing them to happen.
gop_jeff said:First, Barabbas was a murder and an insurrectionist, not a rapist.
Second, the Jews (more specifically, the Jewish leaders of the Sanhedrin) were the ones who handed him over to Pilate. Pilate still had to make the ultimate decision. The hand-washing thing did not absolve him of responsibility. That's why Jesus said "He who handed me over to you is guilty of the greater sin." (as opposed to Pilate's lesser sin of cooperation.)
gop_jeff said:Predestination is mentioned in the Bible along with God's foreknowledge. See Romans 8:29: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." In other words, God knew ahead of time that X number of people would choose to believe in Christ; those people He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. In other words, God does not predetermine the status of our salvation; he predetermines that those who believe "shall be like Him." (1 John 3:2) The individual makes the choice whether to believe or not.
GunnyL said:Excellent explanation.
Powerman said:More like a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.
Powerman said:Dude I'm not talking about any scriptures. Was the death of Christ something that was inevitable and the only way for salvation according to the bible? Yes of course it was. So that removes the idea that anyone had any free will. They would have only thought they were making choices in that situation.
You can not have free choice and predestination. You can only have one or the other. I don't know how I'm going to beat this into you but it's simple logic.
manu1959 said:how about this .... your life and actions are all free will as they have no effect on the predestined actions of those that will affect the world ...... so you can have both....
GunnyL said:You can't reason with this dude on this topic. Hopeless cause.
manu1959 said:how about this .... your life and actions are all free will as they have no effect on the predestined actions of those that will affect the world ...... so you can have both....
manu1959 said:ask him this question...."what would it take for you to change your mind?"
GunnyL said:Ah .... but I don't want to change his mind. The choice is his.
My point is that if he so secure in his disbelief in God, then why the continual rants about it? I'm not twisting his arm, but he surely spends mucho time trying to force his opinion on others.
gop_jeff said:First, Barabbas was a murder and an insurrectionist, not a rapist.
Second, the Jews (more specifically, the Jewish leaders of the Sanhedrin) were the ones who handed him over to Pilate. Pilate still had to make the ultimate decision. The hand-washing thing did not absolve him of responsibility. That's why Jesus said "He who handed me over to you is guilty of the greater sin." (as opposed to Pilate's lesser sin of cooperation.)
Powerman said:More like a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.
Powerman said:Dude I'm not talking about any scriptures. Was the death of Christ something that was inevitable and the only way for salvation according to the bible? Yes of course it was. So that removes the idea that anyone had any free will. They would have only thought they were making choices in that situation.
You can not have free choice and predestination. You can only have one or the other. I don't know how I'm going to beat this into you but it's simple logic.
rtwngAvngr said:Listen here, stubby, we will not allow you to shame america out of the moral codes which have made it strong.
