why are emotional appeals to BP stock/pension holders being used?

[blu]

these people either invested in a bad company by themselves or allow their retirement to. in a free market you are not guaranteed success and the government should not bail you out when you fail. I really don't understand why I should feel sorry for people who invested in BP since they knew they were taking a risk when doing so and in this case they lost. They should have invested smarted by diversifying investments or having a plan if their one hope (BP) were to fall

 

[Gunny]

Why are emotional appeals to tree-huggers and socialists being used to vilify a freakin' accident?

See how that works?

 

[boedicca]

Nobody is saying the shareholders should be bailed out. The objections are to the U.S. government's interference in what is a BP board decision.

 

[blu]

Why are emotional appeals to tree-huggers and socialists being used to vilify a freakin' accident?

See how that works?

yes and I actually have been thinking about that and trying to see the root cause of the fall of the stock price / confidence in long term BP. The problem with your argument is that everywhere I look the first people bringing bad news were economists that were attempting to figure out how much it would cost BP. After these costs came out plus BP having multiple failed attempts to stop the leak, that is when the stock confidence/price started to fall.

Many other people including myself only really understood how bad the spill was in terms of money and long term damage after reading these economists reports.

also, while investigations will go on forever, the idea that it was a simple 'accident' isn't really proven true (yet?). There are multiple reports and investigation that are pointing to negligence and high risk and careless activity taking by the crew that were transforming the rig into a full production station.

Until I can be shown that it was the evironment freaks that caused the fall I really will think it is BPs fault due to their own stupidity followed by reality checks being published by economists. You also have to think that economists would have much more effect on the market than tree huggers.

 

[blu]

Nobody is saying the shareholders should be bailed out. The objections are to the U.S. government's interference in what is a BP board decision.

you talking about the dividends? I already made a thread here that got a lot of posts about that and I am/was strongly against it.

 

[Gunny]

Why are emotional appeals to tree-huggers and socialists being used to vilify a freakin' accident?

See how that works?

yes and I actually have been thinking about that and trying to see the root cause of the fall of the stock price / confidence in long term BP. The problem with your argument is that everywhere I look the first people bringing bad news were economists that were attempting to figure out how much it would cost BP. After these costs came out plus BP having multiple failed attempts to stop the leak, that is when the stock confidence/price started to fall.

Many other people including myself only really understood how bad the spill was in terms of money and long term damage after reading these economists reports.

also, while investigations will go on forever, the idea that it was a simple 'accident' isn't really proven true (yet?). There are multiple reports and investigation that are pointing to negligence and high risk and careless activity taking by the crew that were transforming the rig into a full production station.

Until I can be shown that it was the evironment freaks that caused the fall I really will think it is BPs fault due to their own stupidity followed by reality checks being published by economists. You also have to think that economists would have much more effect on the market than tree huggers.

First, I do not disagree the spill is bad. However, the rig busting was an accident. The only reason the left vilifies BP is because of their zero-defect mentality for anything that isn't in lockstep with their ideals that began in the 80s.

Contrarily, the right is pussy enough to jump through hoops to try and appease the left.

Accidents happen. The Titanic sank. Amelia Earhart crashed. The nuclear reactor at 3 Mile Island melted down.

Affixing blame is for pussies. Try fixing the problem.

As one who loves going to the coast, and lived most of the 70's in South Florida and initially wanted to be a professional beach bum do you REALLY think I don't understand the ramifications of this spill?

But when was it decided we should eat our own? Industrialization, capitalism and OIL got us where we "were" when we "were" on top. Self-loathing and blame in the last few decades is what has removed us from being there.

I'm ALL for an alternative fuel source. Come up with one that works. I'd love most to become independent from idiot nations that control the oil. Until then, check your gas gauge. You might be a bit low.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why are emotional appeals to tree-huggers and socialists being used to vilify a freakin' accident?

See how that works?

yes and I actually have been thinking about that and trying to see the root cause of the fall of the stock price / confidence in long term BP. The problem with your argument is that everywhere I look the first people bringing bad news were economists that were attempting to figure out how much it would cost BP. After these costs came out plus BP having multiple failed attempts to stop the leak, that is when the stock confidence/price started to fall.

Many other people including myself only really understood how bad the spill was in terms of money and long term damage after reading these economists reports.

also, while investigations will go on forever, the idea that it was a simple 'accident' isn't really proven true (yet?). There are multiple reports and investigation that are pointing to negligence and high risk and careless activity taking by the crew that were transforming the rig into a full production station.

Until I can be shown that it was the evironment freaks that caused the fall I really will think it is BPs fault due to their own stupidity followed by reality checks being published by economists. You also have to think that economists would have much more effect on the market than tree huggers.

First, I do not disagree the spill is bad. However, the rig busting was an accident. The only reason the left vilifies BP is because of their zero-defect mentality for anything that isn't in lockstep with their ideals that began in the 80s.

Contrarily, the right is pussy enough to jump through hoops to try and appease the left.

Accidents happen. The Titanic sank. Amelia Earhart crashed. The nuclear reactor at 3 Mile Island melted down.

Affixing blame is for pussies. Try fixing the problem.

As one who loves going to the coast, and lived most of the 70's in South Florida and initially wanted to be a professional beach bum do you REALLY think I don't understand the ramifications of this spill?

But when was it decided we should eat our own? Industrialization, capitalism and OIL got us where we "were" when we "were" on top. Self-loathing and blame in the last few decades is what has removed us from being there.

I'm ALL for an alternative fuel source. Come up with one that works. I'd love most to become independent from idiot nations that control the oil. Until then, check your gas gauge. You might be a bit low.

Why didn't you mention the Exxon Valdez 'accident'? Too good an analogy? lol

 

[Old Rocks]

Why are emotional appeals to tree-huggers and socialists being used to vilify a freakin' accident?

See how that works?

yes and I actually have been thinking about that and trying to see the root cause of the fall of the stock price / confidence in long term BP. The problem with your argument is that everywhere I look the first people bringing bad news were economists that were attempting to figure out how much it would cost BP. After these costs came out plus BP having multiple failed attempts to stop the leak, that is when the stock confidence/price started to fall.

Many other people including myself only really understood how bad the spill was in terms of money and long term damage after reading these economists reports.

also, while investigations will go on forever, the idea that it was a simple 'accident' isn't really proven true (yet?). There are multiple reports and investigation that are pointing to negligence and high risk and careless activity taking by the crew that were transforming the rig into a full production station.

Until I can be shown that it was the evironment freaks that caused the fall I really will think it is BPs fault due to their own stupidity followed by reality checks being published by economists. You also have to think that economists would have much more effect on the market than tree huggers.

First, I do not disagree the spill is bad. However, the rig busting was an accident. The only reason the left vilifies BP is because of their zero-defect mentality for anything that isn't in lockstep with their ideals that began in the 80s.

Contrarily, the right is pussy enough to jump through hoops to try and appease the left.

Accidents happen. The Titanic sank. Amelia Earhart crashed. The nuclear reactor at 3 Mile Island melted down.

Affixing blame is for pussies. Try fixing the problem.

As one who loves going to the coast, and lived most of the 70's in South Florida and initially wanted to be a professional beach bum do you REALLY think I don't understand the ramifications of this spill?

But when was it decided we should eat our own? Industrialization, capitalism and OIL got us where we "were" when we "were" on top. Self-loathing and blame in the last few decades is what has removed us from being there.

I'm ALL for an alternative fuel source. Come up with one that works. I'd love most to become independent from idiot nations that control the oil. Until then, check your gas gauge. You might be a bit low.

Gunny. You are posting bullshit. This was no accident. When you take enough chances, there is no longer a chance of catastrophe, there is a certainty of it. BP had taken enough chances that the blowout was a certainty.

Workers Describe Failures On Oil Rig - Wake County - MyNC.com

At a Coast Guard hearing that started earlier this month and continued in New Orleans on Wednesday, Doug Brown, chief rig mechanic aboard the platform, testified that the trouble began at a meeting hours before the blowout, with a "skirmish" between a BP official and rig workers who did not want to replace heavy drilling fluid in the well with saltwater.

The switch presumably would have allowed the company to remove the fluid and use it for another project, but the seawater would have provided less weight to counteract the surging pressure from the ocean depths.

Brown said the BP official, whom he identified only as the "company man," overruled the drillers, declaring, "This is how it's going to be." Brown said the top Transocean official on the rig grumbled, "Well, I guess that's what we have those pinchers for," which he took to be a reference to devices on the blowout preventer, the five-story piece of equipment that can slam a well shut in an emergency

There is a lot more in that article that indicates a totally dysfunctional management structure on that drilling rig.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, Gunny, how does $1.62 a watt for solar sound? That is for a 5 kw kit and includes the grid parallel inverter. In megawatt installations the price would be even less.

Solar Panels from Wholesale Solar Renewable Energy

And here in Oregon there is a company preparing to build a plant that will drop the price another order of magnitude. Ink jet deposition. Nanotech, Qdots.

Solexant

 

[NYcarbineer]

Accidents and liability aren't mutually exclusive. I don't know who decided to push that notion. There are scores of people in jail for drunk driving 'accidents', when they were to blame. Just as one example.

 

[martybegan]

yes and I actually have been thinking about that and trying to see the root cause of the fall of the stock price / confidence in long term BP. The problem with your argument is that everywhere I look the first people bringing bad news were economists that were attempting to figure out how much it would cost BP. After these costs came out plus BP having multiple failed attempts to stop the leak, that is when the stock confidence/price started to fall.

Many other people including myself only really understood how bad the spill was in terms of money and long term damage after reading these economists reports.

also, while investigations will go on forever, the idea that it was a simple 'accident' isn't really proven true (yet?). There are multiple reports and investigation that are pointing to negligence and high risk and careless activity taking by the crew that were transforming the rig into a full production station.

Until I can be shown that it was the evironment freaks that caused the fall I really will think it is BPs fault due to their own stupidity followed by reality checks being published by economists. You also have to think that economists would have much more effect on the market than tree huggers.

First, I do not disagree the spill is bad. However, the rig busting was an accident. The only reason the left vilifies BP is because of their zero-defect mentality for anything that isn't in lockstep with their ideals that began in the 80s.

Contrarily, the right is pussy enough to jump through hoops to try and appease the left.

Accidents happen. The Titanic sank. Amelia Earhart crashed. The nuclear reactor at 3 Mile Island melted down.

Affixing blame is for pussies. Try fixing the problem.

As one who loves going to the coast, and lived most of the 70's in South Florida and initially wanted to be a professional beach bum do you REALLY think I don't understand the ramifications of this spill?

But when was it decided we should eat our own? Industrialization, capitalism and OIL got us where we "were" when we "were" on top. Self-loathing and blame in the last few decades is what has removed us from being there.

I'm ALL for an alternative fuel source. Come up with one that works. I'd love most to become independent from idiot nations that control the oil. Until then, check your gas gauge. You might be a bit low.

Gunny. You are posting bullshit. This was no accident. When you take enough chances, there is no longer a chance of catastrophe, there is a certainty of it. BP had taken enough chances that the blowout was a certainty.

Workers Describe Failures On Oil Rig - Wake County - MyNC.com

At a Coast Guard hearing that started earlier this month and continued in New Orleans on Wednesday, Doug Brown, chief rig mechanic aboard the platform, testified that the trouble began at a meeting hours before the blowout, with a "skirmish" between a BP official and rig workers who did not want to replace heavy drilling fluid in the well with saltwater.

The switch presumably would have allowed the company to remove the fluid and use it for another project, but the seawater would have provided less weight to counteract the surging pressure from the ocean depths.

Brown said the BP official, whom he identified only as the "company man," overruled the drillers, declaring, "This is how it's going to be." Brown said the top Transocean official on the rig grumbled, "Well, I guess that's what we have those pinchers for," which he took to be a reference to devices on the blowout preventer, the five-story piece of equipment that can slam a well shut in an emergency

There is a lot more in that article that indicates a totally dysfunctional management structure on that drilling rig.

Even is negligence is found it was still an accident. The intent of BP and its subs was to produce a functioning well, not a leaking one.

An accident can still be a criminal liablity by some party.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Given BP's cavalier attitude toward safety and compliance, i have to go with Old Rocks on this. It is like a guy tanking up on 12 shots of vodka and crashing into a school bus. He didn't mean to, but he did stupid and killed folks.

The more we find out about what went on at BP, the more inclined I am to agree that the executives bear criminal liablilty.

As to the stockholders....
they buy into the company based on what they see out of the companies public relations department. There really is no independent audit. And BP has long touted itself as a green company.

These pensions aren't just little old ladies and banks any more. A lot of it is now invested in PERS. So you knock down the price of BP to zero, you will be obliged to pick up the peices in higher taxes to make good on the PERS pensions that invested in them.

Emotional appeals work, which is why folks use them.

But actions have consequences. And if you chose to invest in a company with your eyes shut, you have to bear what happens.

 

[California Girl]

these people either invested in a bad company by themselves or allow their retirement to. in a free market you are not guaranteed success and the government should not bail you out when you fail. I really don't understand why I should feel sorry for people who invested in BP since they knew they were taking a risk when doing so and in this case they lost. They should have invested smarted by diversifying investments or having a plan if their one hope (BP) were to fall

Listen, you total fucking moron.... Most UK pension plans don't provide an option as to what shares plan members buy... you pay into the plan and the fund managers invest in the most profitable shares.

In the UK, there are thousands of ordinary retirees who rely on those payments to LIVE. They don't own massive houses, they don't drive expensive cars, they don't take expensive holidays.... they struggle to pay their bills and heat their homes in winter.

So fuck you... Don't you ever take the moral highground again, because I will remind you of your shitty attitude towards these innocent victims of American greed.... You should be ashamed of yourself - but you're probably too fucking stupid to know that.

 

[blu]

these people either invested in a bad company by themselves or allow their retirement to. in a free market you are not guaranteed success and the government should not bail you out when you fail. I really don't understand why I should feel sorry for people who invested in BP since they knew they were taking a risk when doing so and in this case they lost. They should have invested smarted by diversifying investments or having a plan if their one hope (BP) were to fall

Listen, you total fucking moron.... Most UK pension plans don't provide an option as to what shares plan members buy... you pay into the plan and the fund managers invest in the most profitable shares.

In the UK, there are thousands of ordinary retirees who rely on those payments to LIVE. They don't own massive houses, they don't drive expensive cars, they don't take expensive holidays.... they struggle to pay their bills and heat their homes in winter.

So fuck you... Don't you ever take the moral highground again, because I will remind you of your shitty attitude towards these innocent victims of American greed.... You should be ashamed of yourself - but you're probably too fucking stupid to know that.

those people could have not joined a pension plan, could have had other investments besides a pension, and could have lived frugally enough to not rely on the pension. they also could ahve diverisifed any investments they had control over. personal responsibility goes a long way. and the main greed here is from BP not america. people in america were fine with BP until they shit over hundreds of thousnda of peoples jobs and livelihood for decades to come

 

[California Girl]

these people either invested in a bad company by themselves or allow their retirement to. in a free market you are not guaranteed success and the government should not bail you out when you fail. I really don't understand why I should feel sorry for people who invested in BP since they knew they were taking a risk when doing so and in this case they lost. They should have invested smarted by diversifying investments or having a plan if their one hope (BP) were to fall

Listen, you total fucking moron.... Most UK pension plans don't provide an option as to what shares plan members buy... you pay into the plan and the fund managers invest in the most profitable shares.

In the UK, there are thousands of ordinary retirees who rely on those payments to LIVE. They don't own massive houses, they don't drive expensive cars, they don't take expensive holidays.... they struggle to pay their bills and heat their homes in winter.

So fuck you... Don't you ever take the moral highground again, because I will remind you of your shitty attitude towards these innocent victims of American greed.... You should be ashamed of yourself - but you're probably too fucking stupid to know that.

those people could have not joined a pension plan, could have had other investments besides a pension, and could have lived frugally enough to not rely on the pension. they also could ahve diverisifed any investments they had control over. personal responsibility goes a long way. and the main greed here is from BP not america. people in america were fine with BP until they shit over hundreds of thousnda of peoples jobs and livelihood for decades to come

You are such a judgmental ass. "These people" did the right thing - the responsible thing (ohhh, maybe that's your issue with them... perhaps you think they should have relied on state handouts, like the good socialists do).... Every month, year in and year out, they put money into a pension plan to give themselves a better life once they retire. And ignorant fuckers like you think you know better than they do.

You arrogant fucking asshole. I hope one day it happens to you. I'd really enjoy you getting crapped on by something you had no control over - despite having done the right thing.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

The trouble is, you aren't thinking beyond your own snot. there are millions of shareholders, and beyond that there are the institutions that own the shares. You decide to get all self rightous, you forget that there are real consequences down the line for what you do.


In other words, you are behaving like a BP executive. with less justification. They didn't set out to create a mess, they were just cheezeparing and sloppy. You want to vent your anger and be stupid no matter who gets hurt, just so you can feel good.

 

[Old Rocks]

As a millwright, there are procedures that I have to practice when working on any machinery. The least bad thing that can happen, should I not follow these procedures, is that I get fired. Should I be negligent, and someone, or several someones, get killed or hurt, I would face criminal charges. And be blackballed.

No one would be crying about those that were dependent on my paycheck. They would be crying for those who were hurt by my negligence. And justly so. So why should it be any differant for BP? Does the magnitude of the accident excuse the negligence that caused it?

More and more we are seeing evidence of criminal negligence on BP's part, and the damage estimates just keep expanding.

 

[Big Fitz]

Well, Gunny, how does $1.62 a watt for solar sound? That is for a 5 kw kit and includes the grid parallel inverter. In megawatt installations the price would be even less.

Solar Panels from Wholesale Solar Renewable Energy

And here in Oregon there is a company preparing to build a plant that will drop the price another order of magnitude. Ink jet deposition. Nanotech, Qdots.

Solexant

How does it sound? Like fiction. How much is it after the subsidy is taken away and they have to produce at industrial scale, which they can't do at this time.

 

[Old Rocks]

$1.62 a watt does not include any subsidy. Look at the site.

The Solexent plant is expected to produce 400,000 Mw of solar panels a year.

 

[Care4all]

IF THE SHAREHOLDERS are crying a river about the stock dropping then ALL THEY HAVE TO DO is NOT sell it off and buy more...the stock will rise.

the Stock dropping MEANS the shareholders are JUMPING SHIP and causing problems for other shareholders.