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It’s adorable that you want my attention and all but.. you’re not interested in debating things, so.. that’s boring and I’ll just move alongMr. Fiscus is, yes, an appeaser.
Russia is not different in 2022 than in 1939.
There is no justification for any "special military operation" against Ukraine.
I never said Russia was right to be in Ukraine. You must be thinking of another discussion with a different posterThis is zone 1. Be polite. You have given no reason why Russia should be in Ukraine, none that is worthwhile.
Now you are slip sliding.I never said Russia was right to be in Ukraine. You must be thinking of another discussion with a different poster
Quote me where I said Russia was right to be in Ukraine, or anything remotely insinuating it.Now you are slip sliding.
Fair enough. Your implication is that you believe this specific instance doesn't pass the risk/reward test. Are you saying then that the risk of standing up to Russia is too great, or that the reward for defending Ukraine is too meager, or both?An easy answer? Aggression is not one size fits all. Of course there are ratios to action.
You have to consider the specific consequences of “righting the wrong” if you want to truly value human life.
In other words, this isn’t Germany rushing into Poland. Way different circumstances. Think deeper. In poker, you don’t go all in based on what’s fair.. you hedge your risk reward based on the specific scenario
first of all, i can't speak for Mr. Friscus of course, but i can say this since it's my own beliefs:Fair enough. Your implication is that you believe this specific instance doesn't pass the risk/reward test. Are you saying then that the risk of standing up to Russia is too great, or that the reward for defending Ukraine is too meager, or both?
Agreed. It’s not worth the risk in this specific scenario, and this kind of stuff happens all over the world and we don’t hear about it. There’s been a specific campaign to exaggerate just how horrific and evil Russia is by the Democrats.. Conservatives don’t support Russia either but they don’t make them out to be Nazi Germany, and they don’t want to buy Russian oil like Biden does. Conservatives also largely don’t gleefully support the Ukraine, as they aren’t some beacon of morality either. Sometimes two dirty countries have to have local wars and settle it. I remember when the Democrat party was about not getting involved in war.. nowadays they are the Warhawks (probably because the global companies who profit from war are leftist)first of all, i can't speak for Mr. Friscus of course, but i can say this since it's my own beliefs:
the rewards of re-capturing Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, and holding it, are great.
but the risks, including perpetually re-occuring wars over Crimea and the land routes to it, are far greater.
see my earlier posts in this thread for details.
Also fair enough. I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion.Agreed. It’s not worth the risk in this specific scenario, and this kind of stuff happens all over the world and we don’t hear about it. There’s been a specific campaign to exaggerate just how horrific and evil Russia is by the Democrats.. Conservatives don’t support Russia either but they don’t make them out to be Nazi Germany, and they don’t want to buy Russian oil like Biden does. Conservatives also largely don’t gleefully support the Ukraine, as they aren’t some beacon of morality either. Sometimes two dirty countries have to have local wars and settle it. I remember when the Democrat party was about not getting involved in war.. nowadays they are the Warhawks (probably because the global companies who profit from war are leftist)
I think the difference here is that Crimea has been a disputed territory since the Soviet Union fell. It’s not like Ukraine was some foreign nation Russia invaded. There’s pro-Russia factions in Ukraine, Republics of Crimea have risen and fallen.. it’s very messy, which is why it’s difficult to justify going full Democrat Warhawk here.Also fair enough. I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion.
Does it bother you that Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, and Russia (who has a history of being an aggressive expansionist) is being an aggressive expansionist, and invaded the Ukraine with tanks? To me, that seems to be a reversion to pre-World War II days, from the 70-plus years since where most conflicts have been resolved through diplomacy and unilateral action based on peacekeeping.
So you think the Ukrainians should have left the Russian stooge in power when he didn't represent the wishes of the majority of the Ukrainian population.he should have never risen to power in the first place, that would've saved millions of Ukranian and Russian lives, and it also would've kept Russian criminals in jail.
I totally disagree.
Putin loved the USSR. He wants to bring it back together under Russian supremacy.
Looking at his involvement with the Ukraine, you can see it's been going on for 20 years.
Russia–Ukraine relations - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
"In 2002, the Russian Government participated in financing the construction of the Khmelnytskyi and the Rivne Nuclear Power Plants."
Kuchma was the Ukrainian president from 1994 to 2005. The guy was pro-Russian and pro-Putin in the last 5-6 years of his presidency. Though this isn't full on Putinism, it was more a pragmatic political choice. He supported a pro-EU candidate to replace him as president.
That president was Viktor Yushchenko, a former Prime Minister of Kuchma's.
And guess what, Yushchenko was POISONED. A familiar tactic of Putin's.
It's pretty obvious that Putin had something to do with it. Three of the men at the dinner where he was poisoned are in Russia and Russia refused to extradite these men.
Didn't work, Yushchenko became president and wanted to join the EU and NATO. Not hard to see why. Those former USSR countries that joined the EU are rich. While those that didn't, Belarus and the Ukraine especially, but also Georgia, and other -stan countries and Armenia, are all under Russia's thumb.
Then there was a gas conflict, in 2009. Russia withdrew from a missile warning agreement, and the Ukraine supported Georgia against Russia in the 2008 attack on Georgia.
After this a pro-Russian president from the Donbas region. Then it went all anti-Russia from there, because... well, after the pro-Russian president was kicked out, the Russians then invaded the Crimea and the east of the Ukraine....
Putin had been trying to get his own people in place in the Ukraine, when it failed he used it as a pretext to take over parts of the Ukraine.
You say the Ukraine was taken from Putin. Er... excuse me, the Ukraine was not Putin's in the first place. Anyone who acts like it was and then claims it's NATO's fault that the Ukraine did not want to be Russian is ludicrous.
OK we could be Americans, who love our country, who support a military evening times of controversial wars like the Vietnam war, or the war in Iraq. But when some other country in bed, another country, we don’t have to act like they are the “evil empire.”
You know that Ukraine suspended presidential elections. They have absolutely no excuse for not a democracy they’re not allowed to call themselves a democracy. Do you want to see a democracy look at the United States of America during World War II we held presidential elections during the bloodiest war in human history.
Don’t you see brother this is American exceptionalism. Here we are United States we invade whatever country we want we use drone strikes whenever you want. George W. Bush called Iran, North Korea and Iraq the axis of evil. Republicans were saying we’re gonna take Iran. We’re gonna take North Korea. Now all of a sudden Russia goes in the Ukraine and they have some of eastern Ukraine. This is some kind of a thing we’re Russia is so evil to invade Ukraine. No it’s not. It’s just not anyway you wrap your head around it. This is known as American exceptionalism.
There are tons of Russians and many in eastern Ukraine, who admire Russia.
I can’t believe that fellow liberals and Democrats are acting like neoconservatives. Do you know how many people in the Middle East and Africa are extremely angry when they hear some privilege American saying that Russia is evil. What about the war in Ethiopia? What about the war in Yemen. yeah right there black.
IM2 Superbadbrutha
How can you folks vote for warmongers?
