Who killed the electric car?

[CrusaderFrank]

Would you rather let your kid drive an electric car or solo navigate the world in a plastic bathtub?

 

[Old Rocks]

Revenge of the EV1: crushing EV1 crushed GM

Why did GM crush the EV1??

"Range problem??"
FALSE
The NiMH EV1 had an EPA certified range of 140 miles on a charge; none of the EV1 lessees complained about the range. So if the customer wants the car, despite what someone else says, why not sell it to them?

"Liability??"
FALSE
When GM crushed the EV1, it drove away its own customers, who went to Toyota. Toyota was happy to take our money and sell us the Toyota RAV4-EV, last sold in Nov., 2002. If there was no "liability" issue for Toyota, GM did not have that excuse either.

"Not enough electric??"
FALSE
Far from a shortage of electric, being able to buy a plug-in car would actually help the utility grid. The EV1 charges slowly, at night, when there is too much electric; and the money you save NOT buying gasoline will more than pay for your rooftop solar PV system. This isn't fantasy, it's FACT; hundreds of Toyota RAV4-EV drivers put solar on their roof and now drive for free, free of pollution and free of cost since the money they saved paid it off years ago. But you can't do this unless you can buy a plug-in car, none are offered for sale by the Auto Alliance.

"Battery too expensive??"
FALSE
The EV1 came in two "flavors": one using advanced NiMH batteries, and the other using cheaper lead-acid batteries. With PSB EV-EC1260 lead batteries, this EV1 had a range over 100 miles on a charge. The cost of this off-the-shelf battery pack is no more than $4,800. The rest of the EV1 is just electronics and bent metal. As for Nickel, it's entirely recyclable; after the Nickel battery wears out, perhaps 200,000 miles, the only expense is melting it down and "reforming" it into a new battery, using all the old metals and components.

"Cost too much to build??"
FALSE
Lutz stated that the EV1 would cost too much to build. But in 1994, GM bought control of the NiMH batteries under guise of going into production, and, in 1996 and in 2000, famously claimed that it would have leased as many as people wanted, it was a "production vehicle".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I just watched the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?

I recommend it to everyone.

Who Killed the Electric Car? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You really believe that there was a conspiracy on the part of big business and the state of California to kill the electric car? You do realize that it cost so much that it needed massive subsidies, tax breaks, and pressure from rabid environmentalists for it to even get made, and that even the tree huggers wouldn't actually buy them because they ended up using more energy, and thus polluting more, than it would if it had been powered by a V-8 with no smog control.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No. I did some consulting work for a hydrogen company a few years ago. I'd love to see economically, environmentally sound alternatives to (largely foreign sourced) oil. But there aren't any right now. They will take decades to develop and phase in.

You have an incredibly naive view of both the energy industries and economics.

Naive? Like Warren Buffett?

Buffett's BYD endorsement sends shares soaring
Joanne Chiu and Alison Leung
HONG KONG
Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:30am EDTStocks

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Warren Buffett's investment in Chinese battery maker BYD (1211.HK) gives the firm capital and credibility to pursue its ambition of making environmentally friendly hybrid cars, and nearly doubled its share price on Monday.

On Saturday, MidAmerican Energy, a unit of investment guru Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (BRKa.N), agreed to buy a 10 percent stake in BYD for $230 million, which investors took as a solid endorsement for the rapidly expanding firm.

Buffett's BYD endorsement sends shares soaring | Reuters

You do realize Buffet invest for long term gain, don't you? That is why he consistently performs well, because he accurately predicts good investments that pay off years later. You are making it sound like this is going to happen tomorrow, it isn't. That makes you naive, just boedicca said.

 

[Old Rocks]

An electric you can have right now.

Brammo, the Oregon-based maker of the Enertia electric motorcycle, has just announced a dramatic $4000 drop in MSRP. Now retailing for $7995, the Enertia also qualifies for a 10% federal tax credit, which further reduces consumer cost to $7195.

The original 12K pricetag affixed to the Brammo Enertia was one major roadblock to potential sales. Will an $8K MSRP and financing through Best Buy retail stores spur a boom?
The bold pricing strategy coincides with an announcement that the Enertia can be not only purchased through the electronics retailer Best Buy, but financed as well. With a $2000 down payment, buyers can ride out of select Best Buys with a 24-month zero interest plan of $249 payments. The Enertia can also be purchased directly from Brammo at BRAMMO Enertia powercycle : 100% Electric Motorcycle : Home.

Brammo’s use of Best Buy and this unexpected drop in MSRP are an interesting solution to two of the greatest problems for a workable electric motorcycle startup - price and dealer network.

Brammo Electric Motorcycle Cut to $7995 - Electric Motorcycle and Scooter News - Motorcycle USA

 

[gslack]

There is some serious problems that no amount wishing can get around in regards to the so-called "electric car"..

1. Electrical storage. Current methods rely on chemicals/substances/methods that are both costly on a scale required, too time consuming to use on demand, and far too heavy in a small form factor required on a personal use basis.

2. The demand on the current power grid would be too vast on a national scale much less a global one. More demand for electricity would cause more burning of coal and such to meet the new requirements. A demand that would be beyond our capacity at the current time..

3. The electric cars would need to be charged every 80 miles under ideal conditions. THese Ideal conditions do not realistically reflect real world conditions in most cases. places like Arizona these cars will be susceptible to heat problems making the storage and motors less efficient. And in colder areas and in winter conditions, the storage capability and efficiency would take that 80 miles worth down to about 30 miles worth at best.. How about mountainous areas? Areas like San Francisco and such with hilly inner city driving? Lucky to get the 30 at best...

4. The lifespan of these cars is simply pathetic.. An average of perhaps 3-5 years, and even less for the batteries which cost more than the car itself.. You are asking people to buy a car at 30k which in about 3 years will need a 5-10k battery replacement right away, and thats not even taking into account the subsystems and other electronics involved. After 5 years that car you bought for 30k will be worth about the cost of the batteries... So in the end what will you have bought? An ultra expensive novelty that is disposable....

5. Most people can not afford to pay double or triple for a car and then pay double or triple for the increased electrical bill. And most people do not want to wait hours in line at a re-fill station to charge their dam batteries...

THe EV-1 was a scam from start to finish.. it was an investment rip off, and a way to push green tech that was not viable nor realistic. All of you pipe dreamer green dipshits need to grow up already...

 

[westwall]

An electric you can have right now.

Brammo, the Oregon-based maker of the Enertia electric motorcycle, has just announced a dramatic $4000 drop in MSRP. Now retailing for $7995, the Enertia also qualifies for a 10% federal tax credit, which further reduces consumer cost to $7195.

The original 12K pricetag affixed to the Brammo Enertia was one major roadblock to potential sales. Will an $8K MSRP and financing through Best Buy retail stores spur a boom?
The bold pricing strategy coincides with an announcement that the Enertia can be not only purchased through the electronics retailer Best Buy, but financed as well. With a $2000 down payment, buyers can ride out of select Best Buys with a 24-month zero interest plan of $249 payments. The Enertia can also be purchased directly from Brammo at BRAMMO Enertia powercycle : 100% Electric Motorcycle : Home.

Brammo’s use of Best Buy and this unexpected drop in MSRP are an interesting solution to two of the greatest problems for a workable electric motorcycle startup - price and dealer network.

Brammo Electric Motorcycle Cut to $7995 - Electric Motorcycle and Scooter News - Motorcycle USA

Yes it will be interesting to see if the price drop helps. At 8k it is still double the cost of a 125 enduro that you can ride on the street and the dirt and get at least 200 miles range out of. The Brammo on the other hand is limited to 20 miles out and 20 miles back in the most favorable circumstances. 10 miles out and back if you actually want to maintain the speed limits on the highway.

BRAMMO Enertia powercycle : 100% Electric Motorcycle : Learn

BRAMMO Enertia powercycle : 100% Electric Motorcycle : Learn

It does have apredicted range of 84,000 miles which is not too bad but the replacement cost after that is half the original cost or close to it. But for inner city commuting it would probably be a good alternative for someone with a good amount of cash to spend.

 

[westwall]

The problem is that R & D is being stymied.

My plan? And what is my plan? My plan would be to improve R & D, you seem to be the one that wants to ignore the technology completely, not me.

EC's are not as economical today as what we have now, that doesn't mean that in 5-10 or maybe even 20 years that would not be the case.

Big Oil doesn't want the competition and right now, they don't have to worry about it, because they control the political parties.

It is absolutely irrelevant that the technology is not up to speed with modern automobiles. Inhibiting the R & D will insure that it remains so until it is too late.

If we went with your "plan" we'd all be listening to radio today rather than watching HDTV.
That is if we were even out of the cave.

Immie

The only reason R&D is being stymied is because the money is being stolen by the likes of Al Gore and his cronies. Take all the money that has been stolen from the American taxpayer and given to frauds like Phil Jones (26.5 million dollars at last count paid for fake information) and give it instead to people who are doing the research and you would be where we all wish to be. The last estimate for the green waste that I have seen pegged it over 100 BILLION dollars of US tax money. That would have paid for a lot of R&D don't you think? Instead it has been used to give Gore and company a very nice lifestyle.

Now with that I have to disagree with you.

Do you by any chance have a link to back up your claims?

Do you have any reason to believe that if this accusation you have just laid out were true AND that if it had not been the case a single dime of that money would have gone to American Automobile Manufacturers for R & D of electrical vehicles?

Do you think our government (Republican or Democratic Administrations) give a shit about how much money they spend? If as you say, Gore et al are stealing from the American Taxpayer, do you think that would stop the government from promoting the technology if they so wanted? Let me throw two words out to jog your memory--Stimulus Package.

Money is no object to our government. If they wanted to promote the development of this technology we'd have it by now.

Immie

Here you go,

I was wrong however and transposed one of the numbers Jone's has "only" recieved 22.6 million dollars.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah4XLQCleuUYdFIxMnhMNnlXb2JQcDZUendjUXpWWUE&hl=en

And here is a link for the 100 billion

Quadrant Online - The science of deceit

And here is a report from the Copenhagen meetings presented by CFACT (I have so far not been able to get the link to the actual agreements that are mentioned in the report so there is certainly the possibility that the numbers may be incorrect).

Delegates of developing nations continue to ask CFACT when the developed ations will be sending over $30 billion that was pledged under the Copenhagen Accord. The Accord calls for payments to balloon to $100 billion per year after 2012. However, this money has become contentious not only in that it has not yet been forthcoming, but in that some developed nations intend to divert money from their foreign aid budgets for humanitarian work to climate. Developing nations would prefer that the climate money come to them in addition to other aid, rather than instead of it. There is a genuine risk that human needs such as education, nutrition and malaria control will no longer be met in the name of climate. In addition, others are gnashing their teeth over the intent of developed nations to send over climate cash as loans rather than grants. Grants certainly seem a happier
notion for those on the receiving end.


So there you go. Happy reading.

And money IS and object to the government......it is going broke or have you not been reading the newspapers? CA bankrupt, New York bankrupt, New Jersey bankrupt, Los Angeles bankrupt, San Francisco bankrupt, and the list continues for quite a few states and cities.

 

[Immanuel]

The only reason R&D is being stymied is because the money is being stolen by the likes of Al Gore and his cronies. Take all the money that has been stolen from the American taxpayer and given to frauds like Phil Jones (26.5 million dollars at last count paid for fake information) and give it instead to people who are doing the research and you would be where we all wish to be. The last estimate for the green waste that I have seen pegged it over 100 BILLION dollars of US tax money. That would have paid for a lot of R&D don't you think? Instead it has been used to give Gore and company a very nice lifestyle.

Now with that I have to disagree with you.

Do you by any chance have a link to back up your claims?

Do you have any reason to believe that if this accusation you have just laid out were true AND that if it had not been the case a single dime of that money would have gone to American Automobile Manufacturers for R & D of electrical vehicles?

Do you think our government (Republican or Democratic Administrations) give a shit about how much money they spend? If as you say, Gore et al are stealing from the American Taxpayer, do you think that would stop the government from promoting the technology if they so wanted? Let me throw two words out to jog your memory--Stimulus Package.

Money is no object to our government. If they wanted to promote the development of this technology we'd have it by now.

Immie

Here you go,

I was wrong however and transposed one of the numbers Jone's has "only" recieved 22.6 million dollars.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah4XLQCleuUYdFIxMnhMNnlXb2JQcDZUendjUXpWWUE&hl=en

And here is a link for the 100 billion

Quadrant Online - The science of deceit

And here is a report from the Copenhagen meetings presented by CFACT (I have so far not been able to get the link to the actual agreements that are mentioned in the report so there is certainly the possibility that the numbers may be incorrect).

Delegates of developing nations continue to ask CFACT when the developed ations will be sending over $30 billion that was pledged under the Copenhagen Accord. The Accord calls for payments to balloon to $100 billion per year after 2012. However, this money has become contentious not only in that it has not yet been forthcoming, but in that some developed nations intend to divert money from their foreign aid budgets for humanitarian work to climate. Developing nations would prefer that the climate money come to them in addition to other aid, rather than instead of it. There is a genuine risk that human needs such as education, nutrition and malaria control will no longer be met in the name of climate. In addition, others are gnashing their teeth over the intent of developed nations to send over climate cash as loans rather than grants. Grants certainly seem a happier
notion for those on the receiving end.


So there you go. Happy reading.

And money IS and object to the government......it is going broke or have you not been reading the newspapers? CA bankrupt, New York bankrupt, New Jersey bankrupt, Los Angeles bankrupt, San Francisco bankrupt, and the list continues for quite a few states and cities.

The government went broke a long time ago. Also, those are cities, not the federal government and the cities, and states even, do not have the unlimited resources/credit line that the federal government believes that they have.

I can forgive you for the transposition of the number, but it is going to cost you one day of the week, if you can convince me that I do not agree with ch... um you know who.

Thank you for the links.

I will try to look through them shortly, but, I may have to log off momentarily. I live in Tampa and there is a T'storm moving in. I have learned the hard way, do not tempt the thunderstorms in Tampa.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I'm sorry Westwall,

But, I have to disagree with your contention here.

Just skimming the spreadsheet and the Quadrant Online link you gave me I see now what you are trying to say and although I agree that one could consider that to be theft, it is not like the government only has one thing they can fund at a time.

There does not appear to be a darned thing in your links that indicate that the federal government could not fund R & D of electrical vehicles if they chose to do so.

Immie

 

[westwall]

I'm sorry Westwall,

But, I have to disagree with your contention here.

Just skimming the spreadsheet and the Quadrant Online link you gave me I see now what you are trying to say and although I agree that one could consider that to be theft, it is not like the government only has one thing they can fund at a time.

There does not appear to be a darned thing in your links that indicate that the federal government could not fund R & D of electrical vehicles if they chose to do so.

Immie

Oh don't get me wrong Immie, they could. But Al Gore has used his connections to have the money sent elsewhere...98 million into his pocket at last count. And the Federal government is truly broke. By the year 2012 all tax monies collected and collectible will go to interest, entitlment, and welfare programs enacted as of 1994.

 

[Immanuel]

I'm sorry Westwall,

But, I have to disagree with your contention here.

Just skimming the spreadsheet and the Quadrant Online link you gave me I see now what you are trying to say and although I agree that one could consider that to be theft, it is not like the government only has one thing they can fund at a time.

There does not appear to be a darned thing in your links that indicate that the federal government could not fund R & D of electrical vehicles if they chose to do so.

Immie

Oh don't get me wrong Immie, they could. But Al Gore has used his connections to have the money sent elsewhere...98 million into his pocket at last count. And the Federal government is truly broke. By the year 2012 all tax monies collected and collectible will go to interest, entitlment, and welfare programs enacted as of 1994.

Will it take that long? 2012?

And just because they spend every dime received on interest doesn't mean they would stop spending our grandchildren's dimes... why, if I wanted to look it up, I think I can find somewhere that a politician would call that idea just plain... unamerican!

Immie

 

[westwall]

It couldn't possibly be that after using the car for about eight to ten years that you would have to replace the batteries at a cost of 30 thousand bucks again....

You show me a battery that has that kind of longevity and I'll put them in my fishing boat for the trolling motors.

Poor ol' ignorant Doodeee....., still in the last century.

Toyota RAV4 EV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The RAV4 EV was an all-electric version of the popular RAV4 SUV produced by Toyota. It was sold from 1997 to 2003.

The first fleet version of the RAV4 EV became available on a limited basis in 1997. In 2001 it was possible for businesses, cities or utilities to lease one or two of these cars. Toyota then actually sold or leased 328 RAV4 EVs to the general public in 2003, at which time the program was terminated despite waiting lists of prospective customers.

The RAV4 EV closely resembles the regular internal combustion engine (ICE) version - without a tailpipe - and has a governed top speed of 78 mph (~126 km/h) with a range of 100 to 120 miles (160 to 190 km). The 95 amp-hour NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh, charges inductively and has proven to be surprisingly durable. Some RAV4 EVs have achieved over 150,000 miles (240,000 km) on the original battery pack. It was also one of the few vehicles with a single speed automatic transmission at that time


The RAV4 EV has a governed top speed of 78 miles per hour (126 km/h), a tested 0-60 time of around 18 seconds (depending on state-of-charge on the batteries) and a range of 80 to 120 miles (130 to 190 km). Mileage depends on the same factors as a traditional gasoline-powered vehicle, mainly rolling resistance and average speed (aerodynamic drag).

The RAV4 EV has 24 12-volt 95Ah NiMH batteries capable of storing 27.4 kWh of energy.

[edit] Charging
The RAV4 EV's batteries can be recharged from being fully depleted to fully charged in about 5 hours, and are monitored with a passive battery balancing system. Electricity is supplied via a Magne Charge inductive charging paddle[1] from a wall-mounted 6000-Watt charging unit on a 220 volt, 30 amp, North American "clothes dryer"-type plug.

[edit] Mileage costs
As of May 2006, charging an RAV4 EV from full-dead to full-charge, at a rate of USD 0.09 per kilowatt-hour, costs around USD 2.70. As of May 2008, based on a gasoline price-per-gallon cost of USD 3.80 and up and the non-EV 2003 RAV4 2-wheel-drive gasoline fuel efficiency of 27 mpg-US (8.7 L/100 km; 32 mpg-imp), the RAV4 EV costs approximately 25% as much to fully charge, and makes mileage in the RAV4 EV the cost equivalent to a 111.1 mpg-US (2.117 L/100 km; 133.4 mpg-imp) small SUV.

In addition, the RAV4 EV has a charge timer built into the dashboard that enables the vehicle to start charging at a specific time. As the RAV4 EV easily becomes the main cost of electricity in an average-sized home, this enables the owner to use a Time-Of-Day Meter to reduce electricity costs. This configuration is a standard practice with RAV4 EV owners. The price of electricity at night depends on the carrier, but is usually in the range of 60% of the normal rate. In the use of charging the RAV4 EV, this equates to a cheaper cost-per-mile, roughly equivalent to a vehicle capable of 166.6 mpg-US (1.412 L/100 km; 200.1 mpg-imp), based on a price of USD 3.00 per gallon.

The United States Environmental Protection Agency listed mileage ratings for the RAV4 EV in its yearly Fuel Economy Guide from 2000 through 2003. The 2003 model recorded city mileage equivalent to 125 mpg-US (1.88 L/100 km; 150 mpg-imp), and 100 mpg-US (2.4 L/100 km; 120 mpg-imp) on the highway. Estimated combined mileage was 112 mpg-US (2.10 L/100 km; 135 mpg-imp).

One thing to cast a little reality on the figures provided....your average Energy Star refrigerator uses 1200 WATTS per 24 hour period. The Rav on the other hand uses up 30,000 WATTS in 5 hours for a recharge. So in other words you can run your refrigerator for a MONTH with the same amount of energy to recharge your Rav for a maximum 120 mile range (very rarely achieved BTW). That calculates out to about 30 bucks to go 120 miles in a best case scenario. Currently I can go 450 (average distance, best is 524 worst was 397) miles for 48 bucks which was my last fill up cost. That's 11 cents a mile in fuel cost. The Rav calculates out at 25 cents a mile...and that does not include transmission line cost. So feel free to charge yourself more than twice the amount to travel the same distance...oh wait a minute. You have to charge up four times to go the same amount don't you....oooopss.

 

[Immanuel]

You show me a battery that has that kind of longevity and I'll put them in my fishing boat for the trolling motors.

Poor ol' ignorant Doodeee....., still in the last century.

Toyota RAV4 EV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The RAV4 EV was an all-electric version of the popular RAV4 SUV produced by Toyota. It was sold from 1997 to 2003.

The first fleet version of the RAV4 EV became available on a limited basis in 1997. In 2001 it was possible for businesses, cities or utilities to lease one or two of these cars. Toyota then actually sold or leased 328 RAV4 EVs to the general public in 2003, at which time the program was terminated despite waiting lists of prospective customers.

The RAV4 EV closely resembles the regular internal combustion engine (ICE) version - without a tailpipe - and has a governed top speed of 78 mph (~126 km/h) with a range of 100 to 120 miles (160 to 190 km). The 95 amp-hour NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh, charges inductively and has proven to be surprisingly durable. Some RAV4 EVs have achieved over 150,000 miles (240,000 km) on the original battery pack. It was also one of the few vehicles with a single speed automatic transmission at that time


The RAV4 EV has a governed top speed of 78 miles per hour (126 km/h), a tested 0-60 time of around 18 seconds (depending on state-of-charge on the batteries) and a range of 80 to 120 miles (130 to 190 km). Mileage depends on the same factors as a traditional gasoline-powered vehicle, mainly rolling resistance and average speed (aerodynamic drag).

The RAV4 EV has 24 12-volt 95Ah NiMH batteries capable of storing 27.4 kWh of energy.

[edit] Charging
The RAV4 EV's batteries can be recharged from being fully depleted to fully charged in about 5 hours, and are monitored with a passive battery balancing system. Electricity is supplied via a Magne Charge inductive charging paddle[1] from a wall-mounted 6000-Watt charging unit on a 220 volt, 30 amp, North American "clothes dryer"-type plug.

[edit] Mileage costs
As of May 2006, charging an RAV4 EV from full-dead to full-charge, at a rate of USD 0.09 per kilowatt-hour, costs around USD 2.70. As of May 2008, based on a gasoline price-per-gallon cost of USD 3.80 and up and the non-EV 2003 RAV4 2-wheel-drive gasoline fuel efficiency of 27 mpg-US (8.7 L/100 km; 32 mpg-imp), the RAV4 EV costs approximately 25% as much to fully charge, and makes mileage in the RAV4 EV the cost equivalent to a 111.1 mpg-US (2.117 L/100 km; 133.4 mpg-imp) small SUV.

In addition, the RAV4 EV has a charge timer built into the dashboard that enables the vehicle to start charging at a specific time. As the RAV4 EV easily becomes the main cost of electricity in an average-sized home, this enables the owner to use a Time-Of-Day Meter to reduce electricity costs. This configuration is a standard practice with RAV4 EV owners. The price of electricity at night depends on the carrier, but is usually in the range of 60% of the normal rate. In the use of charging the RAV4 EV, this equates to a cheaper cost-per-mile, roughly equivalent to a vehicle capable of 166.6 mpg-US (1.412 L/100 km; 200.1 mpg-imp), based on a price of USD 3.00 per gallon.

The United States Environmental Protection Agency listed mileage ratings for the RAV4 EV in its yearly Fuel Economy Guide from 2000 through 2003. The 2003 model recorded city mileage equivalent to 125 mpg-US (1.88 L/100 km; 150 mpg-imp), and 100 mpg-US (2.4 L/100 km; 120 mpg-imp) on the highway. Estimated combined mileage was 112 mpg-US (2.10 L/100 km; 135 mpg-imp).

One thing to cast a little reality on the figures provided....your average Energy Star refrigerator uses 1200 WATTS per 24 hour period. The Rav on the other hand uses up 30,000 WATTS in 5 hours for a recharge. So in other words you can run your refrigerator for a MONTH with the same amount of energy to recharge your Rav for a maximum 120 mile range (very rarely achieved BTW). That calculates out to about 30 bucks to go 120 miles in a best case scenario. Currently I can go 450 (average distance, best is 524 worst was 397) miles for 48 bucks which was my last fill up cost. That's 11 cents a mile in fuel cost. The Rav calculates out at 25 cents a mile...and that does not include transmission line cost. So feel free to charge yourself more than twice the amount to travel the same distance...oh wait a minute. You have to charge up four times to go the same amount don't you....oooopss.

Okay, let me throw this idea out because I have been thinking about it for a while.

80 - 120 miles on a single charge is simply not sufficient!! Duh! I nominate myself for the Captain Obvious Award of the day.

Anyway, could the batteries be developed so that they were exchangeable. In other words, gas stations would become battery stations as well. You are driving along and the battery begins to run low so you pull into the gas station, pop the hood and switch batteries then drive on down the road while the station you just left charges the battery and after it is recharged and another customer comes along they get the recharged battery while exchanging for theirs that need to be recharged.

80 - 120 is still not "good enough" but better then 80-120 miles, stop and recharge your batter for five hours and go on about your merry little way.

Improve the life of the battery with technology and maybe you can get 250 miles on a battery and that is about what today's cars get on a tank of gas.

Immie

 

[Old Rocks]

The problem on cost for EVs right now is the same problem you would have were you to decide to build your own V-8 ICE in a modern machine shop. Doable, but the cost would be enormous.

Once that are several million EVs on the highway, the economics of mass production will kick in. As the battery research, or perhaps capacitor, goes into high gear competeing for a market annually in the millions, you will see major improvements, fast. This is, after all, solid state technology.

Tesla Motors - Model S

With a range up to 300 miles and 45-minute QuickCharge, the Model S can carry five adults and two children in quiet comfort – and you can charge it from any outlet, without ever stopping for gas. World’s first mass-produced electric vehicle offers performance, efficiency and unrivaled utility for a base price of $49,900*, making it the only car you’ll ever need.

- 300 mile range
- 45 minute QuickCharge
- 0-60 mph in 5.6 seconds
- Seats 7 people
- More cargo space than sedans
- 2X as efficient as hybrids
- 17 inch infotainment touchscreen

 

[Old Rocks]

And if 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds is to slow for you, how about this little homebuilt?

Welcome to Plasma Boy Racing, home of White Zombie, the world's quickest street legal electric door slammer in the 1/4 mile drag.

Best lead acid powered ET 11.882 @ 109.58 mph!
World's 2nd Quickest & Fastest
'Street Legal Electric Door Slammer'
(in the standing start NHRA timed 1/4 mile, per NEDRA)
0-60 in ~ 3.5 seconds!

Best lithium ion powered ET 11.466 @ 114.08 mph!
World's 2nd Quickest & Fastest
'Street Legal Electric Door Slammer'
(in the standing start NHRA timed 1/4 mile, per NEDRA)
1.58 sec. 60 ft. time, 0-60 in ~ 2.9 seconds, 1/8 mile ET 7.2 @ 94.5 mph!

 

[Old Rocks]

Poor ol' ignorant Doodeee....., still in the last century.

Toyota RAV4 EV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The RAV4 EV was an all-electric version of the popular RAV4 SUV produced by Toyota. It was sold from 1997 to 2003.

The first fleet version of the RAV4 EV became available on a limited basis in 1997. In 2001 it was possible for businesses, cities or utilities to lease one or two of these cars. Toyota then actually sold or leased 328 RAV4 EVs to the general public in 2003, at which time the program was terminated despite waiting lists of prospective customers.

The RAV4 EV closely resembles the regular internal combustion engine (ICE) version - without a tailpipe - and has a governed top speed of 78 mph (~126 km/h) with a range of 100 to 120 miles (160 to 190 km). The 95 amp-hour NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh, charges inductively and has proven to be surprisingly durable. Some RAV4 EVs have achieved over 150,000 miles (240,000 km) on the original battery pack. It was also one of the few vehicles with a single speed automatic transmission at that time


The RAV4 EV has a governed top speed of 78 miles per hour (126 km/h), a tested 0-60 time of around 18 seconds (depending on state-of-charge on the batteries) and a range of 80 to 120 miles (130 to 190 km). Mileage depends on the same factors as a traditional gasoline-powered vehicle, mainly rolling resistance and average speed (aerodynamic drag).

The RAV4 EV has 24 12-volt 95Ah NiMH batteries capable of storing 27.4 kWh of energy.

[edit] Charging
The RAV4 EV's batteries can be recharged from being fully depleted to fully charged in about 5 hours, and are monitored with a passive battery balancing system. Electricity is supplied via a Magne Charge inductive charging paddle[1] from a wall-mounted 6000-Watt charging unit on a 220 volt, 30 amp, North American "clothes dryer"-type plug.

[edit] Mileage costs
As of May 2006, charging an RAV4 EV from full-dead to full-charge, at a rate of USD 0.09 per kilowatt-hour, costs around USD 2.70. As of May 2008, based on a gasoline price-per-gallon cost of USD 3.80 and up and the non-EV 2003 RAV4 2-wheel-drive gasoline fuel efficiency of 27 mpg-US (8.7 L/100 km; 32 mpg-imp), the RAV4 EV costs approximately 25% as much to fully charge, and makes mileage in the RAV4 EV the cost equivalent to a 111.1 mpg-US (2.117 L/100 km; 133.4 mpg-imp) small SUV.

In addition, the RAV4 EV has a charge timer built into the dashboard that enables the vehicle to start charging at a specific time. As the RAV4 EV easily becomes the main cost of electricity in an average-sized home, this enables the owner to use a Time-Of-Day Meter to reduce electricity costs. This configuration is a standard practice with RAV4 EV owners. The price of electricity at night depends on the carrier, but is usually in the range of 60% of the normal rate. In the use of charging the RAV4 EV, this equates to a cheaper cost-per-mile, roughly equivalent to a vehicle capable of 166.6 mpg-US (1.412 L/100 km; 200.1 mpg-imp), based on a price of USD 3.00 per gallon.

The United States Environmental Protection Agency listed mileage ratings for the RAV4 EV in its yearly Fuel Economy Guide from 2000 through 2003. The 2003 model recorded city mileage equivalent to 125 mpg-US (1.88 L/100 km; 150 mpg-imp), and 100 mpg-US (2.4 L/100 km; 120 mpg-imp) on the highway. Estimated combined mileage was 112 mpg-US (2.10 L/100 km; 135 mpg-imp).

One thing to cast a little reality on the figures provided....your average Energy Star refrigerator uses 1200 WATTS per 24 hour period. The Rav on the other hand uses up 30,000 WATTS in 5 hours for a recharge. So in other words you can run your refrigerator for a MONTH with the same amount of energy to recharge your Rav for a maximum 120 mile range (very rarely achieved BTW). That calculates out to about 30 bucks to go 120 miles in a best case scenario. Currently I can go 450 (average distance, best is 524 worst was 397) miles for 48 bucks which was my last fill up cost. That's 11 cents a mile in fuel cost. The Rav calculates out at 25 cents a mile...and that does not include transmission line cost. So feel free to charge yourself more than twice the amount to travel the same distance...oh wait a minute. You have to charge up four times to go the same amount don't you....oooopss.

Okay, let me throw this idea out because I have been thinking about it for a while.

80 - 120 miles on a single charge is simply not sufficient!! Duh! I nominate myself for the Captain Obvious Award of the day.

Anyway, could the batteries be developed so that they were exchangeable. In other words, gas stations would become battery stations as well. You are driving along and the battery begins to run low so you pull into the gas station, pop the hood and switch batteries then drive on down the road while the station you just left charges the battery and after it is recharged and another customer comes along they get the recharged battery while exchanging for theirs that need to be recharged.

80 - 120 is still not "good enough" but better then 80-120 miles, stop and recharge your batter for five hours and go on about your merry little way.

Improve the life of the battery with technology and maybe you can get 250 miles on a battery and that is about what today's cars get on a tank of gas.

Immie

Many ways to skin that cat. Yes, a battery exchange system would be workable. Another answer would be a small trailer with a high efficiency diesel generator on it.

However, there are vehicles out there right now that are getting 250 miles on a single charge. Tesla. But the present cost of the batteries are a real killer. Had the EV1 and the RAV4 not been killed by GM and Chevron, the price of the batteries would probably be far lower right now. The competition to make less costly batteries with more range would have gone into full gear as the numbers of EVs approached ten million worldwide.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wow, it can go a quarter mile, sign me up.

 

[Old Rocks]

The number in red is the cost per watt for a 5 kw system. That would power your house and vehicle. In fact, a bunch of these systems would be a real plus for the present grid, as they put power on the grid when there is the most demand. And the EVs would be taking power off the grid at the time of least demand.

Solar Panels from Wholesale Solar Renewable Energy

Solana Gridtie System 1,800 watts 1680 $2.21 252kWh 30 1 Solectria PVI1800-240 2818030 $3,989

Solana Gridtie System 2,520 watts 2352 $2.11 353kWh 42 1 Solectria PVI2500-240 2825042 $5,324

Solana Gridtie System 3,000 watts 2800 $1.70 420kWh 50 1 Solectria PVI3000 2830050 $5,100

Solana Gridtie System 4,200 watts 3920 $1.61 588kWh 70 1 Solectria PVI4000 2840070 $6,769

Solana Gridtie System 5,040 watts 4704 $1.62 706kWh 84 1 Solectria PVI5000 2850084 $8,157

 

[Old Rocks]

In the prior post, note the cost for the 5 kw kit. $8157. Powering both your vehicle and your home, the payback period would be less than five years.