Who killed the electric car?

[fyrenza]

I apologize to y'all ~

tl/dr the whole thread...

my bad.

But, imho,

ALL of the inventions of the past two energy "crunches" were bought up by the oil companies AND by the auto industry.

ALL of the patents, for the alternative fuels;

ALL of the designs, for the efficient vehicles;

ALL of it was filed in the CIRCULAR file cabinet.

Bought and paid for, and thrown away.

It suited the environment, and the timing was PERFECT.

It suited the populace, and the price was going to be RIGHT.

Yeah.

Where the fuck is ANY of it?

As paranoid as this is going to sound, I honestly don't believe that any of the inventor's are still extant.

 

[Immanuel]

One thing to cast a little reality on the figures provided....your average Energy Star refrigerator uses 1200 WATTS per 24 hour period. The Rav on the other hand uses up 30,000 WATTS in 5 hours for a recharge. So in other words you can run your refrigerator for a MONTH with the same amount of energy to recharge your Rav for a maximum 120 mile range (very rarely achieved BTW). That calculates out to about 30 bucks to go 120 miles in a best case scenario. Currently I can go 450 (average distance, best is 524 worst was 397) miles for 48 bucks which was my last fill up cost. That's 11 cents a mile in fuel cost. The Rav calculates out at 25 cents a mile...and that does not include transmission line cost. So feel free to charge yourself more than twice the amount to travel the same distance...oh wait a minute. You have to charge up four times to go the same amount don't you....oooopss.

Okay, let me throw this idea out because I have been thinking about it for a while.

80 - 120 miles on a single charge is simply not sufficient!! Duh! I nominate myself for the Captain Obvious Award of the day.

Anyway, could the batteries be developed so that they were exchangeable. In other words, gas stations would become battery stations as well. You are driving along and the battery begins to run low so you pull into the gas station, pop the hood and switch batteries then drive on down the road while the station you just left charges the battery and after it is recharged and another customer comes along they get the recharged battery while exchanging for theirs that need to be recharged.

80 - 120 is still not "good enough" but better then 80-120 miles, stop and recharge your batter for five hours and go on about your merry little way.

Improve the life of the battery with technology and maybe you can get 250 miles on a battery and that is about what today's cars get on a tank of gas.

Immie

The batteries for these vehicles are extraordinarily expensive, contrary to old frauds contention, and run around 30k for a set. They also weigh around 1200-1400 pounds for the Rav, so interchangeable battery packs are not remotely practical.

As with everything else, technology improves with time and costs come down.

One of the reasons for the extraordinarily high costs of those batteries today is the lack of a market for the vehicles. Promote the market and increase sales and the prices will drop. Just basic supply and demand economics.

Immie

 

[westwall]

Okay, let me throw this idea out because I have been thinking about it for a while.

80 - 120 miles on a single charge is simply not sufficient!! Duh! I nominate myself for the Captain Obvious Award of the day.

Anyway, could the batteries be developed so that they were exchangeable. In other words, gas stations would become battery stations as well. You are driving along and the battery begins to run low so you pull into the gas station, pop the hood and switch batteries then drive on down the road while the station you just left charges the battery and after it is recharged and another customer comes along they get the recharged battery while exchanging for theirs that need to be recharged.

80 - 120 is still not "good enough" but better then 80-120 miles, stop and recharge your batter for five hours and go on about your merry little way.

Improve the life of the battery with technology and maybe you can get 250 miles on a battery and that is about what today's cars get on a tank of gas.

Immie

The batteries for these vehicles are extraordinarily expensive, contrary to old frauds contention, and run around 30k for a set. They also weigh around 1200-1400 pounds for the Rav, so interchangeable battery packs are not remotely practical.

As with everything else, technology improves with time and costs come down.

One of the reasons for the extraordinarily high costs of those batteries today is the lack of a market for the vehicles. Promote the market and increase sales and the prices will drop. Just basic supply and demand economics.

Immie

But you have to have a vehicle that more than just the wealthy can buy my friend. Show me a family wih an annual income of 50,000 bucks who can afford one of those. You can't.
The last I checked the average family income is 48k....which means there are very few people who can afford them.

It's very simple, build a car the average family can afford, and afford to use, and they will buy them. Currently the costs are so high that only the upper class can afford them. Just imagine going out and saying OK people you all have to buy these BMW M3's because we think you should. Doesn't that sound a little silly to you? 10% of the US's population buys cars that cost 65,000 bucks or more.

EC's are simply too expensive for the vast amount of the population. When are you going to figure out that very simple fact?

 

[Old Rocks]

When the ICEs first came out, they were far to expensive for the average family to own. Then Henry Ford changed that. Unfortunetly, a Henry Ford of today would be put out of business by the big auto makers and the oil companies.

So, that Henry Ford of today will come from China. And idiots like Walleyes will be responsible for that.

 

[Immanuel]

The batteries for these vehicles are extraordinarily expensive, contrary to old frauds contention, and run around 30k for a set. They also weigh around 1200-1400 pounds for the Rav, so interchangeable battery packs are not remotely practical.

As with everything else, technology improves with time and costs come down.

One of the reasons for the extraordinarily high costs of those batteries today is the lack of a market for the vehicles. Promote the market and increase sales and the prices will drop. Just basic supply and demand economics.

Immie

But you have to have a vehicle that more than just the wealthy can buy my friend. Show me a family wih an annual income of 50,000 bucks who can afford one of those. You can't.
The last I checked the average family income is 48k....which means there are very few people who can afford them.

It's very simple, build a car the average family can afford, and afford to use, and they will buy them. Currently the costs are so high that only the upper class can afford them. Just imagine going out and saying OK people you all have to buy these BMW M3's because we think you should. Doesn't that sound a little silly to you? 10% of the US's population buys cars that cost 65,000 bucks or more.

EC's are simply too expensive for the vast amount of the population. When are you going to figure out that very simple fact?

I don't disagree.

Do you know how long it took me to buy a VCR? DVD? Flat Screen TV? Wait, I don't own a flat screen. Not that I can't afford one, or couldn't before my job was eliminated, but I don't go out and buy the latest technology simply because I gotta have it.

I believe, and this is only my opinion, one of the reasons that the costs are so high is that the government and Big Oil are making it so. They are actively working to keep the price of Electrical Vehicles high while at the same time keeping the price of ICE's down (well, moderate when compared to EV's at least) so as to make the cost of EV's out of reach for most of us.

Immie

 

[konradv]

Apologies to Elvis, but what's so funny about trying to save the planet?

 

[GHook93]

It can't possibly be that it sucked and no one wanted to own one except as a vanity item, right?

That is the kneejerk reactions that I was partial to leaning to. However in this case I don't think so. All beginning technology has major flaws, but the die-hards buy them. Look at Tesla Model S. They have I believe over 5,000 reservations ($7500 down) a year before this are set to be relaesed. Eventually they get better and go main stream, think the cell phones evolution. There is definitely a need and a market. We will see it in full force over the next decade.

I think it was the oil companies personally.

Limited range (60 – 70 miles) and reliability in the first EV1s to ship, but better (110 – 160 miles) later. Research says the average driving distance of Americans in a day is 30 miles or less and that 90% of Americans could use electric cars in their daily commute. The film also showed that the company who had supplied batteries for EV1 had been suppressed from announcing the improved batteries that can double the range of EV1, and General Motors had sold the supplier's majority control share to an oil company. Towards the end of the film, an engineer explains that, as of the interview, lithium ion batteries, the same technology available in laptops, would have allowed the EV1 to be upgraded to a range of 300 miles per charge.
Oil companies
Fearful of losing business to a competing technology, they supported efforts to kill the ZEV mandate. They also bought patents to prevent modern NiMH batteries from being used in US electric cars. The film also used the crash of oil prices in 1980s as an example of non-US governments and oil companies trying to keep customers from moving towards independence from oil.

 

[hortysir]

Okay, let me throw this idea out because I have been thinking about it for a while.

80 - 120 miles on a single charge is simply not sufficient!! Duh! I nominate myself for the Captain Obvious Award of the day.

Anyway, could the batteries be developed so that they were exchangeable. In other words, gas stations would become battery stations as well. You are driving along and the battery begins to run low so you pull into the gas station, pop the hood and switch batteries then drive on down the road while the station you just left charges the battery and after it is recharged and another customer comes along they get the recharged battery while exchanging for theirs that need to be recharged.

80 - 120 is still not "good enough" but better then 80-120 miles, stop and recharge your batter for five hours and go on about your merry little way.

Improve the life of the battery with technology and maybe you can get 250 miles on a battery and that is about what today's cars get on a tank of gas.

Immie

Excluding extremely long commuters, or salesmen on the road, honestly who drives more than 100 miles a day, anyway?
True, not a car you'd take on vacation. But for back and forth to work, you could charge it while at work, if need be.

Like you, Immie, just throwing that out there.

 

[Immanuel]

Okay, let me throw this idea out because I have been thinking about it for a while.

80 - 120 miles on a single charge is simply not sufficient!! Duh! I nominate myself for the Captain Obvious Award of the day.

Anyway, could the batteries be developed so that they were exchangeable. In other words, gas stations would become battery stations as well. You are driving along and the battery begins to run low so you pull into the gas station, pop the hood and switch batteries then drive on down the road while the station you just left charges the battery and after it is recharged and another customer comes along they get the recharged battery while exchanging for theirs that need to be recharged.

80 - 120 is still not "good enough" but better then 80-120 miles, stop and recharge your batter for five hours and go on about your merry little way.

Improve the life of the battery with technology and maybe you can get 250 miles on a battery and that is about what today's cars get on a tank of gas.

Immie

Excluding extremely long commuters, or salesmen on the road, honestly who drives more than 100 miles a day, anyway?
True, not a car you'd take on vacation. But for back and forth to work, you could charge it while at work, if need be.

Like you, Immie, just throwing that out there.

Well, for me, I was thinking more of the vacation type things. Truthfully, the 80-120 would not affect the daily commute issue at all.

I like to drive. I would someday love to drive through all 49 states and then hit Hawaii some day as well. That ain't gonna work on 80-120 miles a day.

Immie

 

[hortysir]

Better start now, then

 

[namvet]

I just watched the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?

I recommend it to everyone.

Who Killed the Electric Car? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oil. plastic is made from it. everything is made from it

 

[westwall]

When the ICEs first came out, they were far to expensive for the average family to own. Then Henry Ford changed that. Unfortunetly, a Henry Ford of today would be put out of business by the big auto makers and the oil companies.

So, that Henry Ford of today will come from China. And idiots like Walleyes will be responsible for that.

Untrue, as is most of what you post. According to the American Automobile Club of America (founded in 1931) in 1911 the following automobiles were produced.

1. Ford...................................................69,762

2. Studebaker/EMF...................................26,827

3. Willys-Overland....................................18,745

4. Maxwell..............................................16,000

5. Buick..................................................13,389

6. Cadillac...............................................10,071

7. Hudson.................................................6,486

8.Chalmers................................................6,250

The average personal income was 983 dollars per year. The DOW average was 82(!) and a new car average cost was 1,130 dollars, also the median home price was $2,625. So in two to three years you could buy a brand new car. Remember there was NO INCOME TAX in 1911 so your money was your own.

In 1919 Henry Ford dropped the price of his cars down to 650 dollars and that enabled him to capture 35% of the market. But the IC vehicles were well on their way before that because they were easier to take care of then horses, didn't get sick and die, didn't have to have their poop cleaned up every day etc. etc. etc.

The biggest impediment to IC vehicles was a lack of roads. The Lincoln highway (1913) was the first coast to coast highway and it was mainly dirt.

 

[Immanuel]

When the ICEs first came out, they were far to expensive for the average family to own. Then Henry Ford changed that. Unfortunetly, a Henry Ford of today would be put out of business by the big auto makers and the oil companies.

So, that Henry Ford of today will come from China. And idiots like Walleyes will be responsible for that.

Untrue, as is most of what you post. According to the American Automobile Club of America (founded in 1931) in 1911 the following automobiles were produced.

1. Ford...................................................69,762

2. Studebaker/EMF...................................26,827

3. Willys-Overland....................................18,745

4. Maxwell..............................................16,000

5. Buick..................................................13,389

6. Cadillac...............................................10,071

7. Hudson.................................................6,486

8.Chalmers................................................6,250

The average personal income was 983 dollars per year. The DOW average was 82(!) and a new car average cost was 1,130 dollars, also the median home price was $2,625. So in two to three years you could buy a brand new car. Remember there was NO INCOME TAX in 1911 so your money was your own.

In 1919 Henry Ford dropped the price of his cars down to 650 dollars and that enabled him to capture 35% of the market. But the IC vehicles were well on their way before that because they were easier to take care of then horses, didn't get sick and die, didn't have to have their poop cleaned up every day etc. etc. etc.

The biggest impediment to IC vehicles was a lack of roads. The Lincoln highway (1913) was the first coast to coast highway and it was mainly dirt.

Not that I doubt your posts, but I typically like to see things from the site itself. Would you by any chance still have access to the link you got that from? Easier than trying to Google it myself.

Immie

 

[westwall]

When the ICEs first came out, they were far to expensive for the average family to own. Then Henry Ford changed that. Unfortunetly, a Henry Ford of today would be put out of business by the big auto makers and the oil companies.

So, that Henry Ford of today will come from China. And idiots like Walleyes will be responsible for that.

Untrue, as is most of what you post. According to the American Automobile Club of America (founded in 1931) in 1911 the following automobiles were produced.

1. Ford...................................................69,762

2. Studebaker/EMF...................................26,827

3. Willys-Overland....................................18,745

4. Maxwell..............................................16,000

5. Buick..................................................13,389

6. Cadillac...............................................10,071

7. Hudson.................................................6,486

8.Chalmers................................................6,250

The average personal income was 983 dollars per year. The DOW average was 82(!) and a new car average cost was 1,130 dollars, also the median home price was $2,625. So in two to three years you could buy a brand new car. Remember there was NO INCOME TAX in 1911 so your money was your own.

In 1919 Henry Ford dropped the price of his cars down to 650 dollars and that enabled him to capture 35% of the market. But the IC vehicles were well on their way before that because they were easier to take care of then horses, didn't get sick and die, didn't have to have their poop cleaned up every day etc. etc. etc.

The biggest impediment to IC vehicles was a lack of roads. The Lincoln highway (1913) was the first coast to coast highway and it was mainly dirt.

Not that I doubt your posts, but I typically like to see things from the site itself. Would you by any chance still have access to the link you got that from? Easier than trying to Google it myself.

Immie

Oh please of course you doubt me, you're an old fraud sycophant. Don't be coy. Here is the link so you don't have to type in three words into a google search.

1911

 

[Immanuel]

Untrue, as is most of what you post. According to the American Automobile Club of America (founded in 1931) in 1911 the following automobiles were produced.

1. Ford...................................................69,762

2. Studebaker/EMF...................................26,827

3. Willys-Overland....................................18,745

4. Maxwell..............................................16,000

5. Buick..................................................13,389

6. Cadillac...............................................10,071

7. Hudson.................................................6,486

8.Chalmers................................................6,250

The average personal income was 983 dollars per year. The DOW average was 82(!) and a new car average cost was 1,130 dollars, also the median home price was $2,625. So in two to three years you could buy a brand new car. Remember there was NO INCOME TAX in 1911 so your money was your own.

In 1919 Henry Ford dropped the price of his cars down to 650 dollars and that enabled him to capture 35% of the market. But the IC vehicles were well on their way before that because they were easier to take care of then horses, didn't get sick and die, didn't have to have their poop cleaned up every day etc. etc. etc.

The biggest impediment to IC vehicles was a lack of roads. The Lincoln highway (1913) was the first coast to coast highway and it was mainly dirt.

Not that I doubt your posts, but I typically like to see things from the site itself. Would you by any chance still have access to the link you got that from? Easier than trying to Google it myself.

Immie

Oh please of course you doubt me, your an old fraud sycophant. Don't be coy. Here is the link so you don't have to type in three words into a google search.

1911

Actually, I didn't really care all that much whether I saw the link. I was just trying to be polite rather than saying something like... POST YOUR DAMNED LINKS PEOPLE!!!!

Immie

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't disagree.

Do you know how long it took me to buy a VCR? DVD? Flat Screen TV? Wait, I don't own a flat screen. Not that I can't afford one, or couldn't before my job was eliminated, but I don't go out and buy the latest technology simply because I gotta have it.

I believe, and this is only my opinion, one of the reasons that the costs are so high is that the government and Big Oil are making it so. They are actively working to keep the price of Electrical Vehicles high while at the same time keeping the price of ICE's down (well, moderate when compared to EV's at least) so as to make the cost of EV's out of reach for most of us.

Immie

Do you have any idea where oil companies make their real profits? Oil is used for a lot of things, and gasoline is only one of them. I read once that their major profits come from making plastics, not from gasoline. Why would they conspire to restrict their profit margins?

 

[Immanuel]

I don't disagree.

Do you know how long it took me to buy a VCR? DVD? Flat Screen TV? Wait, I don't own a flat screen. Not that I can't afford one, or couldn't before my job was eliminated, but I don't go out and buy the latest technology simply because I gotta have it.

I believe, and this is only my opinion, one of the reasons that the costs are so high is that the government and Big Oil are making it so. They are actively working to keep the price of Electrical Vehicles high while at the same time keeping the price of ICE's down (well, moderate when compared to EV's at least) so as to make the cost of EV's out of reach for most of us.

Immie

Do you have any idea where oil companies make their real profits? Oil is used for a lot of things, and gasoline is only one of them. I read once that their major profits come from making plastics, not from gasoline. Why would they conspire to restrict their profit margins?

Sorry, but do you have a source for what you read? I can't really answer that if I don't believe it.

Immie

 

[gslack]

I don't disagree.

Do you know how long it took me to buy a VCR? DVD? Flat Screen TV? Wait, I don't own a flat screen. Not that I can't afford one, or couldn't before my job was eliminated, but I don't go out and buy the latest technology simply because I gotta have it.

I believe, and this is only my opinion, one of the reasons that the costs are so high is that the government and Big Oil are making it so. They are actively working to keep the price of Electrical Vehicles high while at the same time keeping the price of ICE's down (well, moderate when compared to EV's at least) so as to make the cost of EV's out of reach for most of us.

Immie

Do you have any idea where oil companies make their real profits? Oil is used for a lot of things, and gasoline is only one of them. I read once that their major profits come from making plastics, not from gasoline. Why would they conspire to restrict their profit margins?

Sorry, but do you have a source for what you read? I can't really answer that if I don't believe it.

Immie

If you really do not know that plastics and petro-chemicals are two of the major money makers in oil, than you really need to do some reading....

EIA Energy Kids - Oil (petroleum)

Other products are for example petro-chemical feed stocks which go into making all kinds of things from plastics to some medicines and all points in between..

Which do you think is worth more a gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? one is 18% of the crude oil barrel, and the other is a mere 7% or less...

There is far more to oil than most of us realize....

 

[Immanuel]

Do you have any idea where oil companies make their real profits? Oil is used for a lot of things, and gasoline is only one of them. I read once that their major profits come from making plastics, not from gasoline. Why would they conspire to restrict their profit margins?

Sorry, but do you have a source for what you read? I can't really answer that if I don't believe it.

Immie

If you really do not know that plastics and petro-chemicals are two of the major money makers in oil, than you really need to do some reading....

EIA Energy Kids - Oil (petroleum)

Other products are for example petro-chemical feed stocks which go into making all kinds of things from plastics to some medicines and all points in between..

Which do you think is worth more a gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? one is 18% of the crude oil barrel, and the other is a mere 7% or less...

There is far more to oil than most of us realize....

the world uses gasoline and petroleum products to move merchandise and people, help make plastics, and do many other things. At a refinery, different parts of the crude oil are separated into useable petroleum products. Today, some refineries turn more than half of every 42-gallon barrel of crude oil into gasoline

His statement was that the major profits of oil companies is from Plastic products.

I don't see that in your link.

One barrel of crude oil, when refined, produces about 19 gallons of finished motor gasoline, and 10 gallons of diesel, as well as other petroleum products. Most petroleum products are used to produce energy. For instance, many people across the United States use propane to heat their homes.

Other products made from petroleum include:

* Ink
* Crayons
* Bubble gum
* Dishwashing liquids
* Deodorant
* Eyeglasses
* CDs and DVDs
* Tires
* Ammonia
* Heart valves

I'm not saying that I doubt what he heard, but I don't have any proof as to its accuracy or even who said it and in what context. The question is where did he hear the information that plastic products provide a majority of the profits of an oil company?

Other products may in fact be more "valuable" than oil but the costs of producing them may outweigh the benefits to the company. I don't know which is more profitable for the companies as I have not researched it, but I suspect that gasoline and other fuels are the major profit centers for oil companies based on the fact that these are the main products of those companies.

Which do you think is worth more a gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? one is 18% of the crude oil barrel, and the other is a mere 7% or less...

A gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? If one (gasoline) is 18% of a barrel of Oil and the other (other products is 7%), by the way, your percentages are wrong because according to your graph gasoline is not 18% of a barrel, it is 18 gallons produced from one barrel, but that is immaterial. Look at the "chart" of a barrel of oil from your link... it produces 18.56 gallons of gasoline, 10.31 gallons of Diesel, etc. etc. etc. Those are gallons produced not percentages. From the looks of that chart, gasoline is about 41% of a barrel, while "other products" is about 15% of a barrel.

The other products may or may not be more valuable than the gasoline that is produced. The issue at hand would be what is feasible and/or possible to produce from a barrel. If "other products" are more valuable then why would oil companies not produce only "other products"? My guess is that this is probably because they are by-products of the fuel production and can only be made after fuel production is completed and only in certain quantities.

Note: I'm not disputing what he said, just asking for information before I try and answer his question.

Immie

 

[gslack]

Sorry, but do you have a source for what you read? I can't really answer that if I don't believe it.

Immie

If you really do not know that plastics and petro-chemicals are two of the major money makers in oil, than you really need to do some reading....

EIA Energy Kids - Oil (petroleum)

Other products are for example petro-chemical feed stocks which go into making all kinds of things from plastics to some medicines and all points in between..

Which do you think is worth more a gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? one is 18% of the crude oil barrel, and the other is a mere 7% or less...

There is far more to oil than most of us realize....

His statement was that the major profits of oil companies is from Plastic products.

I don't see that in your link.

One barrel of crude oil, when refined, produces about 19 gallons of finished motor gasoline, and 10 gallons of diesel, as well as other petroleum products. Most petroleum products are used to produce energy. For instance, many people across the United States use propane to heat their homes.

Other products made from petroleum include:

* Ink
* Crayons
* Bubble gum
* Dishwashing liquids
* Deodorant
* Eyeglasses
* CDs and DVDs
* Tires
* Ammonia
* Heart valves

I'm not saying that I doubt what he heard, but I don't have any proof as to its accuracy or even who said it and in what context. The question is where did he hear the information that plastic products provide a majority of the profits of an oil company?

Other products may in fact be more "valuable" than oil but the costs of producing them may outweigh the benefits to the company. I don't know which is more profitable for the companies as I have not researched it, but I suspect that gasoline and other fuels are the major profit centers for oil companies based on the fact that these are the main products of those companies.

Which do you think is worth more a gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? one is 18% of the crude oil barrel, and the other is a mere 7% or less...

A gallon of gasoline or a chemical used to make a certain kind of medical supply? If one (gasoline) is 18% of a barrel of Oil and the other (other products is 7%), by the way, your percentages are wrong because according to your graph gasoline is not 18% of a barrel, it is 18 gallons produced from one barrel, but that is immaterial. Look at the "chart" of a barrel of oil from your link... it produces 18.56 gallons of gasoline, 10.31 gallons of Diesel, etc. etc. etc. Those are gallons produced not percentages. From the looks of that chart, gasoline is about 41% of a barrel, while "other products" is about 15% of a barrel.

The other products may or may not be more valuable than the gasoline that is produced. The issue at hand would be what is feasible and/or possible to produce from a barrel. If "other products" are more valuable then why would oil companies not produce only "other products"? My guess is that this is probably because they are by-products of the fuel production and can only be made after fuel production is completed and only in certain quantities.

Note: I'm not disputing what he said, just asking for information before I try and answer his question.

Immie

My bad on the percent i got ahead of myself and mixed up the gallons with percent.. The link was to a government information website for energy designed for kids.. I am sure its a simplification...

However the fact still remains, if you can get 18 gallons of one thing out of something and only 7 gallons of several other things, and those other things are such wide ranging products like plastics and such, simple logic gives the answer that the 7 gallons is in reality worth more per gallon than the 18..