Who is responsible for YOU?

[Gunny]

A lot of the pampered scions on this board simply haven't got a clue how hard many people work for their miserable wage.

How could they possible know since they've never done most of that sort of job?

It never ends with you does it editiec. It must be an involuntary thing that you have no control over seeing as you don't seem to have the ability to stop doing it. It is amazing how often you need to whip out this premise that has exactly zero evidence to make your argument work. How can you claim to have any credibility or integrity when you have to constantly do this?

Do What?

My gift of pointing out the stunningly obvious contempt that some expressed for those who are not making it?

It's a gift.

We have had people here essantially telling us that the working poor need to suffer the indignity of working their asses off and not making it because they are lazy or didn't study hard enough in school.

Now what motivates such shallow thinking?

Self agrandizing nonsense, that's what motivates that kind of thinking, Bern.

Classist arrogance and classist fear, mostly.

They fear that if they admit that the system which served them well, serves others -- who also work their asses off -- very badly, then they'd have to admit that they are not the complete masters of their own destiny that they're telling themselves that they are.

You worked hard for every advantage you have now you say? I do not doubt you worked hard.

But are you really the master or your own destiny?

Of course not.

Life is a mixture of what you start out with, what you do with it, and what happens to you along the way.

And the what happens along the way is that which you have absolutely no control over.

That descibes the human experience, Bernie, yours, mine... everyones.

So you worked hard you you're making it?

Good for you. I hope your good fortune never turns.

But so too did millions of other equally talented, equally hard working people work hard and they are in serious trouble right now.

The bottom 80% of the population of the USA own 15% of this lands wealth, Bernie.

So spare us your Horatio Algers stories mythologies.

that myth which you cling to for your own self image doesn't have the resonance that truth does.

We either fix this system such that most people can make it, or Bernie?

This system will go down.

And when it goes down?

People just like you will go down right along with it.

Word to the wise.

American either decides to pay for social justice now, or America pays much more for not having insured that it existed.

You can take your supply side trickly down bullshit and you can shove it up your ass.

Do you get that?

Everything you think you know about the world is a fucking LIE, bernie.

The other side of the coin being I should work my ass off for a day and a half a week for free ... so the government can redistribute what I EARNED to someone who hasn't earned it, so you can have your so-called "social justice?"

Obviously, "fair" and "right" have no play in that thought process.

 

[Tigerlils13]

Tsk, tsk.
You have fallen into a rather common trap- stereotyping. Once again, we have arrived at the idea that the poor don't work hard enough to deserve basic necessities- healthcare, food, heat, clothing... The list can continue endlessly.
Fairness and rightness... these are two very difficult concepts. What's fair to one might not be fair to another. But, when you get right down to it, what's fair is usually what's best for the majority.
In some ways, it's rather obvious that you, Gunny, have never been poor. Otherwise you wouldn't say such things.
I am surprised at you, for when I read the quote you have tagged onto your posts, I thought that here was a person who understood that there are terrible things in our world and that everyone must pitch in in order to stop these things from happening. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your post you're saying that good men, women, etc. should not do what must be done in order to help the poor.
Perhaps, however, I'm wrong. Obviously, in order for you to disagree with me and still believe that your quote is correct, then you must have some other method that would alleviate the burdens upon the poor without taxing the upperclass.
Please do share and enlighten us.

 

[editec]

The other side of the coin being I should work my ass off for a day and a half a week for free ... so the government can redistribute what I EARNED to someone who hasn't earned it, so you can have your so-called "social justice?"

Obviously, "fair" and "right" have no play in that thought process.

Ah!... do you have to pay taxes, Gunny?

Gee, what a shame.

And where did the money come from so you could pay your taxes?

From other people...who paid their taxes.

Many of whom worked just as hard as you did, probably harder, but who for one reason or the other, have to have help just so they can stand in place doing their jobs.

You of ALL people should realize that taxation is a necessary annoyance of living in a civil csociety.

After all, your career as a Marine, while a necessary and laudable service, was entirely funded by taxation.

In that ideal Libertopian world that will never exist because human nature will not allow it to exist, no welfare AND NO Marine Corps would be necessary.

Sadly, that is not the world we live in.

Hence, despite all our collective complaints about government and welfare and waste, taxation,every cent of which is some form of redistribution of wealth..including every cent you ever made as a Marine and are still making as a retired Marine, is a necessary part of our lives.

If you don't like redistribution of wealth to keep the society going, move to Somalia where you won't be bothered by just egregious injustice as wealth redistribution (AKA taxes).

 

[Care4all]

The thing is gunny, you are not working a day and a half to pay for this, nor am I, nor are the very wealthy, nor are the poor....

Some day down the road, your granddaughter will be working a day and a half or more like 2.5 days a week to pay for all of this....and all of this also includes the $6 trillion added to the debt during the Bush Presidency...ALL OF THAT was BORROWED as well....

none of us are paying for this crap that has been going on....sadly, we are taking from America's future...

All we can do now that this recent stimulus passed is- pray that it works to bring us around the bend in a way that won't hurt us as much....as a country.

Care

 

[Gunny]

The Government is responsible to ensure that people are protected from the thieving Wall Street Bankers.

People are responsible with what they do with their own money.

 

[editec]

The Government is responsible to ensure that people are protected from the thieving Wall Street Bankers.

People are responsible with what they do with their own money.

To the extent that they can be responsible, I agree.

Still I think we can both agree that some oversight is needed to insure that people aren't swindled, too, don't you agree?

The Madoff scandal is particularly annoying to me, not so much because he was a crook, but because the SEC failed so completely to discover his swindle almost two decades ago.

I don't miond at all paying for a government to fund the police, regulators, the military and so forth because, after all, those are necessary things.

But when we find, as in the case of Madoff, AND in the case of the BONDS RATING AGENCIES, that they TOTALLY failed in their missions?

Well this liberal is not amused.

We need to hold our master class AND OUR GOVERNMENT to the same standards of accountability as we hold our burger flippers at McDonalds.

And we don't

And the outcomes of that special treatment they get, have been getting, and probably will continue getting, is a society which day by day works less well for more people.

And these most recent fiscal disasters must be laid at the feet of those who created them, or those who failed in their missions to prevent them from happening, too.

Because with great power, must come great responsibility and great ACCOUNTABILITY FOR FAILURE, TOO.

Right now, that does NOT seem to be the case.

 

[Tigerlils13]

The Government is responsible to ensure that people are protected from the thieving Wall Street Bankers.

People are responsible with what they do with their own money.

Your point being...? Because last time I checked, the government's job was to protect the people. As such, the government should be protecting its own citizens, tax base, constituents, whatever-you-wish-to-call-them, etc. from "theiving Wall Street Bankers." If it is not the government's job to protect and help the people, then what do we pay taxes for?
People are, yes, responsible for their own money, but the Government is responsible for preventing bad people do bad things so that good people can do good things. Yes or no?

 

[Gunny]

Tsk, tsk.
You have fallen into a rather common trap- stereotyping. Once again, we have arrived at the idea that the poor don't work hard enough to deserve basic necessities- healthcare, food, heat, clothing... The list can continue endlessly.
Fairness and rightness... these are two very difficult concepts. What's fair to one might not be fair to another. But, when you get right down to it, what's fair is usually what's best for the majority.
In some ways, it's rather obvious that you, Gunny, have never been poor. Otherwise you wouldn't say such things.
I am surprised at you, for when I read the quote you have tagged onto your posts, I thought that here was a person who understood that there are terrible things in our world and that everyone must pitch in in order to stop these things from happening. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your post you're saying that good men, women, etc. should not do what must be done in order to help the poor.
Perhaps, however, I'm wrong. Obviously, in order for you to disagree with me and still believe that your quote is correct, then you must have some other method that would alleviate the burdens upon the poor without taxing the upperclass.
Please do share and enlighten us.

Tsk tsk. You have fallen into a rather common trap - making judgements with nothing to base them on but your assumptions.

I did not say "the poor" don't work. Nor did I say they should not be provided basics. "Poor" is relative to one's position on the totem pole, and let's be real ... the "basics" are not high-speed internet, cable TV, a late model vehicle.

You would do MUCH better when communicating with me to get off your holier-than-thou soapbox and attempting to play on my emotions and condescendingly question my beliefs and build yourself an entire argument based on what you assume, and try addressing just the issue at hand.

You know nothing about me. I grew up QUITE "poor." I busted my ass and EARNED my way out of it. Maybe had YOU ever been poor, you would understand that coming from being poor and rising above it, I take GREAT exception to having someone such as yourself try to put me back there by redistributing what I have earned to someone who has NOT earned it.

You want to play semantics and relativism with "fair" and "right"; yet, you turn right around and attempt to admonish me over my signature because my belief in the meaning of that quote does not coincide with YOUR, relative idea of what is "fair" and "right."

Taking what one person has earned and giving it to someone who has not earned it has NOTHING to do with "fair," "right," nor good men doing anyything. It's called theft. Good men aren't thieves.

Your argument also contains only black or white solutions; yet, again you want to talk of subjectiveness. We aren't discussing a case of absolute destitution versus filthy rich. We are discussing a fat-tick bureaucracy rife with fraud, waste and abuse, people who abuse the system, and a system that has no problem making my life more difficult by the amount it takes from me under the pretense it is doing what's "right."

In other words ... when you get an argument that actually addresses reality and some facts, come on back. Otherwise, you aren't doing so well trying to present me as Darth Vader.

 

[driveby]

The other side of the coin being I should work my ass off for a day and a half a week for free ... so the government can redistribute what I EARNED to someone who hasn't earned it, so you can have your so-called "social justice?"

Obviously, "fair" and "right" have no play in that thought process.

Ah!... do you have to pay taxes, Gunny?

Gee, what a shame.

And where did the money come from so you could pay your taxes?

From other people...who paid their taxes.

Many of whom worked just as hard as you did, probably harder, but who for one reason or the other, have to have help just so they can stand in place doing their jobs.

You of ALL people should realize that taxation is a necessary annoyance of living in a civil csociety.

After all, your career as a Marine, while a necessary and laudable service, was entirely funded by taxation.

In that ideal Libertopian world that will never exist because human nature will not allow it to exist, no welfare AND NO Marine Corps would be necessary.

Sadly, that is not the world we live in.

Hence, despite all our collective complaints about government and welfare and waste, taxation,every cent of which is some form of redistribution of wealth..including every cent you ever made as a Marine and are still making as a retired Marine, is a necessary part of our lives.

If you don't like redistribution of wealth to keep the society going, move to Somalia where you won't be bothered by just egregious injustice as wealth redistribution (AKA taxes).

I have a strong opinion regarding this, but i want to give gunny a chance to respond first.

 

[Agnapostate]

Would ya explain what it is SPECIFICALLY, that leads you to believe that confiscating the product of Person A's labor and giving it to Person B; who did NOT earn it and is NOT required to even CONSIDER paying it back, can be argued to be anything EXCEPT theft? And while you're at it, ya might as well explain what it is that you've propped this notion that 'the State' is protecting through their acting as a 'stabilizing agent'...

This is the second time which you've been directly challenged to do so...

And YES... at some point, your refusal to substantiate your feelings will be a sufficient basis to conclude that you're 'feelings' amount to little more that ethereal wishes, which rest upon no substantial basis... OKA: you being full of anarcho-communist shit.

Another day; another idiotic comment from you. We've already devoted ample discussion to the manner in which private ownership benefits a class at the expense of generations of toil by lower classes. That being said, you clearly don't even understand the principle of the diminishing rate of marginal utility, so you'd better gain a greater understanding of political economy before commenting.

 

[driveby]

The Government is responsible to ensure that people are protected from the thieving Wall Street Bankers.

People are responsible with what they do with their own money.

Your point being...? Because last time I checked, the government's job was to protect the people. As such, the government should be protecting its own citizens, tax base, constituents, whatever-you-wish-to-call-them, etc. from "theiving Wall Street Bankers." If it is not the government's job to protect and help the people, then what do we pay taxes for?
People are, yes, responsible for their own money, but the Government is responsible for preventing bad people do bad things so that good people can do good things. Yes or no?

Well golly gee, we have another wanna be liberal elitist looking down his nose at the bad guys. If it's the governments job to prevent bad people from doing bad things to good people, fine, go ahead and use our tax money to do so. Gunny's point though ( and Gunny can correct me if i'm wrong ) is that he doesn't want our hard earned tax dollars going to people that are too lazy or make lousy/ selfish decisions and won't work to make their own living......

 

[The InDesigner]

Okay, everyone stop the "Who's been poorer game." No one cares, that's not really the issue. Why is everyone so keen on the socialist idea of redistributing the wealth. The US isn't socialist, and that won't happen here. There are programs in place to help poor people, yeah.

They require some of the money that the working class made through hard work in order to function.

But gone are the days before Bill Clinton, at least, legally. People have a much harder time trying to screw the system due to a number of reforms made in the Clinton era.

But still, the reality is this: I personally don't care if the person earned the right to my money, or the money of people who can survive without it anyways.

That person should have a job, and should work, and should pull themselves out of it, but who the hell are you to say no, die? Go live on the streets and no, never visit a doctor because you don't deserve to.

Nobody is saying that But some people do. That's the scary position we have to avoid. That's why money should go towards quality education and job programs, and affordable healthcare. People won't need our money because everyone will be able to have a job that lets them survive, and they can go to the doctor without regretting it.

This is an ideal situation that can't really come true, I know that, I'm not an idiot, but it's something to work towards by paying your taxes and making sure that elected officials know what to do with them.

 

[Gunny]

The other side of the coin being I should work my ass off for a day and a half a week for free ... so the government can redistribute what I EARNED to someone who hasn't earned it, so you can have your so-called "social justice?"

Obviously, "fair" and "right" have no play in that thought process.

Ah!... do you have to pay taxes, Gunny?

Gee, what a shame.

And where did the money come from so you could pay your taxes?

From other people...who paid their taxes.

Many of whom worked just as hard as you did, probably harder, but who for one reason or the other, have to have help just so they can stand in place doing their jobs.

You of ALL people should realize that taxation is a necessary annoyance of living in a civil csociety.

After all, your career as a Marine, while a necessary and laudable service, was entirely funded by taxation.

In that ideal Libertopian world that will never exist because human nature will not allow it to exist, no welfare AND NO Marine Corps would be necessary.

Sadly, that is not the world we live in.

Hence, despite all our collective complaints about government and welfare and waste, taxation,every cent of which is some form of redistribution of wealth..including every cent you ever made as a Marine and are still making as a retired Marine, is a necessary part of our lives.

If you don't like redistribution of wealth to keep the society going, move to Somalia where you won't be bothered by just egregious injustice as wealth redistribution (AKA taxes).

Okay, Chris .. let's make this intellectually dishonest argument. I EARNED my money. Had I not earned it being employed by the government, I would have earned it somewhere else. I would also have ensured that I had a plan for retirement at the end, just as I have, that has nothing to do with the government, Marines, nor anyone else but my doing so.

So, you can stuff THAT bullshit argument. Or is this where I make one just about as good and claim I am self-employed since I too pay taxes, and have since Day One? You and a few others act as if I've done nothing but take, and THAT is bullshit.

I expect this from a dimbulb like Chris. I DON'T expect if from someone who not only was in the service, but was a Corpsman and KNOWS what price is paid for that paltry sum I get in compensation.

Along with it, you can take your black-or-white only strawmen. I have NEVER made the statement that I am against taxation, nor have I ever said I don't believe in providing for those who are truly in need and/or cannot care for themselves.

How about we try a little honesty here? I object to the AMOUNT I am taxed. I object to the corrupt, abused welfare systems we have in place that only get bigger rather than being fixed. I object to money beins spent on absolute bullshit that could be spent to make these social programs better, and not take so much from me. THAT is reality.

There's a happy medium.

But here's an example of one of your great social programs at work. My wife has not been able to work for over a year. She is physically incapable of holding a job. In that year, I've pretty much run through a lot of my life's savings supplementing an income that got cut in half.

Where's your government? Social Security has been giving her the runaround the entire time, with no end in sight. What if I HADN'T been prepared for an emergeny? I'd be on the street, is what.

THAT's MY reality. So when you want to talk about something that actually will work, you let me know. Until then, you can have your inept government and its failed social policies.

And no, I'm not going to move anywhere. I'm going to contnue to vote against this bullshit, and people like you and your convoluted, one-sided arguments until the day I die. Just too bad Democrats don't believe the same things I do or I could vote even after that.

 

[Gunny]

The thing is gunny, you are not working a day and a half to pay for this, nor am I, nor are the very wealthy, nor are the poor....

Some day down the road, your granddaughter will be working a day and a half or more like 2.5 days a week to pay for all of this....and all of this also includes the $6 trillion added to the debt during the Bush Presidency...ALL OF THAT was BORROWED as well....

none of us are paying for this crap that has been going on....sadly, we are taking from America's future...

All we can do now that this recent stimulus passed is- pray that it works to bring us around the bend in a way that won't hurt us as much....as a country.

Care

You are incorrect. A day and a half of my wages is arbitrarily lifted from my check by the government every week.

Maybe our kids/grandkids will pay. Maybe not. This debt has been coming due since the 70s. Every time it does, it's uglier and bigger than ever and we keep deferring it. Depends on whether or not they can figure out yet another way to defer it.

What NEEDS to happen is all this whining and crying needs to stop and people just need to suck it up NOW. THAT I could get more behind paying for than some bandaid on a gushing artery stimulus bill.

 

[driveby]

I'd just like to quickly add that career military people in most, if not all cases could have chosen more lucrative careers in the private sector, but made that sacrifice to serve their country. So can we put ALL the bullshit to bed about military service and tax dollars ? Were getting a fucking BARGAIN with our tax dollars for what military folks are paid. thanks ......

 

[Gunny]

Okay, everyone stop the "Who's been poorer game." No one cares, that's not really the issue. Why is everyone so keen on the socialist idea of redistributing the wealth. The US isn't socialist, and that won't happen here. There are programs in place to help poor people, yeah.

They require some of the money that the working class made through hard work in order to function.

But gone are the days before Bill Clinton, at least, legally. People have a much harder time trying to screw the system due to a number of reforms made in the Clinton era.

But still, the reality is this: I personally don't care if the person earned the right to my money, or the money of people who can survive without it anyways.

That person should have a job, and should work, and should pull themselves out of it, but who the hell are you to say no, die? Go live on the streets and no, never visit a doctor because you don't deserve to.

Nobody is saying that But some people do. That's the scary position we have to avoid. That's why money should go towards quality education and job programs, and affordable healthcare. People won't need our money because everyone will be able to have a job that lets them survive, and they can go to the doctor without regretting it.

This is an ideal situation that can't really come true, I know that, I'm not an idiot, but it's something to work towards by paying your taxes and making sure that elected officials know what to do with them.

I got a better idea ... you don't tell me what to comment on and I'll do the same for you.

 

[The InDesigner]

That's great, Gunny. Now did you bother to read beyond that first sentence?

 

[Care4all]

People are responsible with what they do with their own money.

Your point being...? Because last time I checked, the government's job was to protect the people. As such, the government should be protecting its own citizens, tax base, constituents, whatever-you-wish-to-call-them, etc. from "theiving Wall Street Bankers." If it is not the government's job to protect and help the people, then what do we pay taxes for?
People are, yes, responsible for their own money, but the Government is responsible for preventing bad people do bad things so that good people can do good things. Yes or no?

Well golly gee, we have another wanna be liberal elitist looking down his nose at the bad guys. If it's the governments job to prevent bad people from doing bad things to good people, fine, go ahead and use our tax money to do so. Gunny's point though ( and Gunny can correct me if i'm wrong ) is that he doesn't want our hard earned tax dollars going to people that are too lazy or make lousy/ selfish decisions and won't work to make their own living......

but what would your life or my life be like without the person that picked our vegetables, or the person who landscaped your yard, or the woman who waited on your table, or the person who gave you your fries at the fast food place, or the person who gave you your dry cleaning or the chambermaid who cleaned your hotel room or the front desk clerk who checked you in to the motel or the security guard who walked around the hotel or the clerk who rings your groceries in the grocery store or the guy who bagged them for you or the salesman in the shoe dept who waited on his knees for you or the janitor who mops those floors in the store and floors in the hospital you might need to go to....

I can go on and on and on and on with the MILLIONS of Americans that are doing these jobs, FOR US....for our convenience....not because they are in love with their jobs and careers....

And ALL of these type jobs are subject to poverty.

As a Christian, it is a BIG NO NO, or great SIN, to levy up the wealthy over and above those that are poor....to give special preference to the richer, as though they are "better" people.

As a nonchristian this can be looked at as being UNETHICAL to put the wealthy above the poor as human beings and to treat the poor with less respect, and the rich with more respect....due to their financial standing.

Whether one believes Jesus was God or not is not at issue with what I am posting, Jesus WAS also a great philosopher and ethicist and was a great teacher of such to his disciples that he sent forward....

James 2

Favoritism Forbidden

1My brothers, ... don't show favoritism.

2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

6But you have insulted the poor.

Is it not the rich who are exploiting you?

Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?

7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,

13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.

Mercy triumphs over judgment!


If you are not a Christian, I still believe this is good advice to follow in the world of living among humans....all of us would do good to ourselves if we can humble ourselves and not boast so much about our own supposed good deeds that got us to where we are while putting down others for not having accomplished the same....

OK, that's my Sunday sermon for the Day....nuff said...on that....and sorry if I bored everyone to death!

Care

 

[Care4all]

I'd just like to quickly add that career military people in most, if not all cases could have chosen more lucrative careers in the private sector, but made that sacrifice to serve their country. So can we put ALL the bullshit to bed about military service and tax dollars ? Were getting a fucking BARGAIN with our tax dollars for what military folks are paid. thanks ......

My father put over 20 years in the USAF and retired when he was 39 years old from it, then for the rest of his life since he was 39 he has drawn his retirement for his 22 years in the USAF....he is now in his late 70's, almost 40 years and counting...another 20 if his health keeps.....that is 60 years of his life drawing his Millitary retirement because he gave 22 years to them....

In addition to this, he and my mother have had paid for health care their entire lives as a military benefit as well....all the 49 years so far of retirement from the USAF....

And there is NO WAY IN HEAVEN could my father had been better off in the private sector making more than he did with serving his time in the Air Force....certainly he was paid crapola when he first enlisted and alot more as Chief master sargent when he left....but he got cheap base housing during that period and all health care costs for our entire family that whole time, and pretty good schools on base for my sister and I to go to....and he got his high school and college degrees....both while serving.

Then when he got out, he went to work for the FAA for another 20 years....

A lifetime government employee, active duty and civil service....

My parents are millionaires or close, if you count their property....all their quality healthcare is paid for, there is no medicare gap for them and there never will be...

This is what a lifetime of working for our government brings....and a great deal of being frugal which no doubt, my parents pinched pennies their whole life, so that they could have this great retirement period....but the government benefits were much more than ANYTHING he could have gotten from the private sector....imo, so I disagree that most people serving would have been better off in the private sector....my father is in the same good boat as those that he served with...

Not that I wish my parents had not gotten all that they have gotten for my father's 22 years in the air force, but one does have to question paying retirement for 50 years or 60 years for those 22 years and wonder why our government did not go broke even sooner....?

care

 

[driveby]

Whatever skills he learned in the USAF, he could have bailed and made a killing in the private sector with superb benefits to go with it. I don't have a problem at all with 50 + years getting those benefits. I'm quite sure the service that he provided was WELL worth what he has received in return. The fact that the lefty loons continue to call it a "social program" is sickening and completely ignorant of these clowns and i would happily contribute more of my tax dollars for people as such. As opposed to paying more for lazy able bodies or selfish/irresponsible parasites......