Who cares what you believe!

To date the best arguement that the "Right-to-life" people can offer is: "I BELIEVE life begins at the moments of conception".

When a sperm and egg get together inside of a woman and join chromosomes, you get this weird little cell. It's weird because unlike all the other cells in the woman's body, this one has different DNA sequences (because while half came from the woman, the other half came from someone else entirely).

As the cell divides into a cluster of cells, that cluster begins to form its own systems. It is physically linked to the woman and recieves nutrients from her, but is, physically, its own organism. Like a tapeworm.

If this organized cluster of cells continues to develop without significant disruption, it will, barring severe internal defects, eventually become a fetus and thence, if the birth doesn't go too badly, an infant.

So if you mean "life" strictly in physical/biological sense, it really does begin at conception. That's the first time you see living cells that are distinct from both parents.


Morality, though, is not so cut and dry. The big question in the abortion issue, to my mind, is "when does that cluster of cells become a person, a bearer of those things we consider 'basic human rights,' specifically the right to not be killed by other people?"

It happens at some point. Once the thing is out breathing air pretty much anyone would consider it murder to kill it. The question is how far back should that concern extend? All the way back to the beginning of its biological life? Is a first-week miscarriage the same as a baby dieing? That seems... off to me, somehow. But it also seems off to consider a kicking little bipedal guy with fingers and toes and a clear nervous system to be nothing more than a biohazard.

Before that point, clearly the woman involved should be perfectly free to have the thing removed like a parasite. After that point, killing it would clearly be immoral under most circumstances, just like killing anyone is immoral under most circumstances.
 
Are you familiar with meiosis and fertilization? When both gametes join there is a distinct pattern of DNA. Rape cases aside, the fact remains that a zygote is not the "body" of the host uterus.

just sayin.
From the charlatan who brought us the Half Pregnant Woman we will now be treated to a smoke and mirrors show demonstrating how embryos resulting from rape are genetically different from embryos not resulting from rape.

The fun begins!
 
From the charlatan who brought us the Half Pregnant Woman we will now be treated to a smoke and mirrors show demonstrating how embryos resulting from rape are genetically different from embryos not resulting from rape.

The fun begins!

:rofl::rofl::rofl: :eusa_clap:
 
From the charlatan who brought us the Half Pregnant Woman we will now be treated to a smoke and mirrors show demonstrating how embryos resulting from rape are genetically different from embryos not resulting from rape.

The fun begins!

a caveat has ALWAYS been reserved for rape victims.. nice strawman and shit talkin though...

I guess slapping you around with scientific fact gives you that not so fresh feeling, eh?
 
Hey! Maybe Shogun can explain the virgin birth?

I can explain meiosis to you if youd like.... care to ponder a few genetic FACTS? Or, just talk shit? trust me, i'm comfy doing either.



:cool:
 
a caveat has ALWAYS been reserved for rape victims.. nice strawman and shit talkin though...

I guess slapping you around with scientific fact gives you that not so fresh feeling, eh?

So on Shogun planet according to Shogun's voodoo jurisprudence, rape victims have earned the right to be murderers? At the expense of all those embryos who had the misfortune to result, through no fault of their own, from a crime? But who speaks for them? Don't they have a say? :cuckoo:

An embryo by any other name is still an embryo and if you're going to claim that to destroy one is murder, at least be consistent.
 
Fact: An egg is not a chicken.. doesn't matter what the egg might ultimately become.

Fact: Not every religion or belief system believes that "life begins at conception"...

Conclusion: Government needs to stay out of the issue.

Fact: Not every religion or belief system believes that a woman has a soul, and therefore may be killed by any male who thinks she deserves it.

Conclusion: The government needs to keep people from killing innocents.
 
I can explain meiosis to you if youd like.... care to ponder a few genetic FACTS? Or, just talk shit? trust me, i'm comfy doing either.



:cool:

We been through this before. Ad nauseum.
To tell the truth I'd even rather listen to a 12 hour travelogue of Maninova's most excellent backseat adventures than rehash the Great Shogun Compromise.
 
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Did you listen to Thom Hartmann? I never heard of zygote until yesterday.

Question. Isn't my spirm alive? Shouldn't then pro lifers worship it?

Your sperm may be alive, but it cannot develop into a human being, nor does it have a separate dna code from yourself.
 
Your sperm may be alive, but it cannot develop into a human being, nor does it have a separate dna code from yourself.

That's ok, you can still worship at the alter. LOL. JK.

I heard yesterday a good point. When the baby can live independent fromm the body, that's when it should have human rights. So if you decided at 7 months that you didn't want to have the baby, it is too late because the baby could technically live on it's own, or in an incubator, or whatever.

But if it is 5 months in, the fetus/baby could not live outside the mothers body, so it should be her choice at that point.

So I don't know where the cut off point is, but this sounds fair.

And if the baby is severly retarded, the mother should be able to abort even at the last minute. IMO.
 
The age keeps getting lower, and lower. And in fact, babies can be cloned and grown in petrie dishes now.

So where does that leave your flawed logic?

And it's altar, not alter.
 
Question. Isn't my spirm alive?

Yes it is. Just like the countless skin cells of yours that die everyday from your contact with objects.

Shouldn't then pro lifers worship it?

Why, are they individual people?

I think there is a compelling difference between a sperm/egg and a zygote (and did you really not hear about zygotes in high school biology?).

A sperm/egg is like the other cells in the body which spawned it except that it has only half the chromosomes. They will not themselves grow or develop as independent organisms. Your sperm/egg is still basically you, just like the cells in your stomach lining or eyeballs.

A zygote, though, has its own full set of DNA which is different from that of both people who contributed to it. In that sense it is not a cell of either parent's body (though it is embedded in and totally dependent on its mother's body), and has within itself all the genetic instructions it needs to grow into a unique adult - it is a distinct animal.

The real question, I think, is "is it a person?" Conception does, physically, result in a new homo sapien organism, but when should that animal be afforded the serious human rights that would, say, justify it ravishing - innocently but still brutally - the body of its mother against her will?
 
So on Shogun planet according to Shogun's voodoo jurisprudence, rape victims have earned the right to be murderers? At the expense of all those embryos who had the misfortune to result, through no fault of their own, from a crime? But who speaks for them? Don't they have a say? :cuckoo:

An embryo by any other name is still an embryo and if you're going to claim that to destroy one is murder, at least be consistent.

not at all.. THEY didn't make the same irresponsible choice to open their cooter to any ole dick that came along like the easy majority of those who have abortions. THAT crime is on the shoulders of the rapists. Indeed, your strawman is neither original OR profound.
 
We been through this before. Ad nauseum.
To tell the truth I'd even rather listen to a 12 hour travelogue of Maninova's most excellent backseat adventures than rehash the Great Shogun Compromise.

Indeed, then why step up to the plate if you know damn well i'll be standing on your ovaries by the end of this little tangent? Again, we can talk shit if thats what you wanna do. OR we can talk genetic FACT if thats what you are afraid to face. I dont really care. I have more evidence behind MY compromise than you do behind your typical post-feminist pussy worship. If you can't deal with the reality of DNA then so be it. These are reasons why my position ties your fallopian tubes in knots.
 
Wow, that comment was less offensive than your usual response...shogun, are you feeling well?
 

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