Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is merely just another example of your inability to recognize what the difference is between what you want to believe --- and --- what is actual reality.

What is it they say? A picture is worth a 1000 words.

You spend too much time on Abbas. He left the government in June of 2007.

(COMMENT)

This is a picture of President Abbas and Secretary General Ban Ki-moon:

​

The Palestine Government in 2014:

​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

Who are the Pal'istanians?



UN report outlines how Hamas used kids as human shields

The headlines in most places were entirely predictable: “UN Says Israel Killed 44 Palestinians in Schools During Gaza War.” That was indeed one finding of a UN report published Monday — but only part of the story.

The report also confirmed something Israel’s been saying all along: Hamas stored mortars and other weapons in at least three UN schools during last summer’s war and fired rockets at Israel from two of them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is merely just another example of your inability to recognize what the difference is between what you want to believe --- and --- what is actual reality.

What is it they say? A picture is worth a 1000 words.

You spend too much time on Abbas. He left the government in June of 2007.

(COMMENT)

This is a picture of President Abbas and Secretary General Ban Ki-moon:

View attachment 50961​

The Palestine Government in 2014:

View attachment 50962​

Most Respectfully,
R

OMG, a picture of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Nice government. I bet none of them were approved by parliament as their constitution requires.

That is like a US president swearing in a cabinet without senate approval.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course the Convention on Treaties does have an applications to the Oslo Accords. That much we agree on. But I have never heard President Mahmoud Abbas, who in 1993 was the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Negotiator and signed the "Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements" (AKA: Oslo I), even suggest that the proceeding were fraudulent or coerced, or accuse Israel of corrupting the process, or coercing the PLO (or himself) in any way. Nor has President Mahmoud Abbas charged or complained that Oslo I conflicts with any peremptory norm of general international law to the detriment of the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian People. Nor have we heard from President Mahmoud Abbas that the sole representative of the Palestinian People (himself --- representing their interests) was subject to some measure of force or lacking the competence to enter into such a negotiation or that the PLO was forced to renounced terrorism and recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace.

In fact, President Mahmoud Abbas did not suggest then and does not claim now that he or the PLO were subject to any military, political, economic pressures, or any other form of coercion aimed against the political independence or territorial integrity of the Palestinian People.

You don't pay attention. A treaty is but only ONE of several ways that territorial sovereignty may be arrived at. We've gone over several different interpretations of those recognized ways.

WRONG as Israel has imposed borders prior to the existence of the Palestinian state and they are legal until such a time as the Palestinians keep their promise to negotiate mutual borders.

Borders are not imposed. They are arrived to be treaty.

The Palestinians do not need to change their borders.

(COMMENT)

In the case of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, the Armistice Agreements (Article XII) stipulated that the agreed upon method would be by Peace Treaty (outlined in the posting above). Egypt and Jordan both made such Treaties. There was no Armistice Agreement with the Palestinians, as they were represented by the Arab League. Thus, any method is open.

Methods of Acquiring Territorial Soveignty include, but are not limited to:

• Cession is the transfer of territory from one state to another usually by means of treaty;
• Occupation is the acquisition of territory that belongs to no state, or terra nullius;
• Prescription is the effective control of territory of another acquiescing state;
• Operations of nature is the acquisition of territory through natural processes like river accretion or volcanism;
• Creation is the process by which new land is reclaimed from the sea such as in the Netherlands.
• Adjudication and
• Conquest
​

While there are certainly arguments to be made concerning the international legitimacy of a couple of these modes (Occupation and Conquest as examples), they have all been used right up to the present day; including Occupation and Conquest.

In the case of the dispute with the Palestinians, the Oslo I (Article V --- Permanent status negotiations - security arrangements, borders) and Oslo II (XII --- responsibility for protecting the Egyptian and Jordanian borders; --- For the purpose of this Agreement, "the Settlements" means, in the West Bank - the settlements in Area C)(Article XXXI --- Permanent status negotiations - security arrangements, borders) are the operable factors.

The State of Palestine has no fixed borders with Israel, that Israel does not maintain and enforce; which are --- for all practical and realistic purposes, are recognized by every nation within or operating around in the region; to include the Arab League Nations. Whether or not they agree that these are permanent boundaries, except those established by treaty with Jordan and Egypt, is inconsequential. Every nation within or operating around in the region, to include the Arab League Nations, recognize the physical controls and political limitations --- and --- abide by the border requirements and protections established by Israel.

The means of dispute resolution are defined in Article XV of the Oslo I Agreement --- and --- Article XXI of the Oslo II Agreement. The Palestinians have essentially agreed to abide by the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States [A/RES/25/2625 (XXV)] to settle their international disputes by peaceful means in accordance with the Charter. This includes refraining from the threats or use of force as a means of solving territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers.

Most Respectfully,
R

A view on Oslo:

SECTION 2. INVALIDITY OF TREATIES

Article 49 Fraud
A State or an international organization induced to conclude a treaty by the fraudulent conduct of a negotiating State or a negotiating organization may invoke the fraud as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.

Article 50 Corruption Of A Representative Of A State Or Of An International Organization
A State or an international organization the expression of whose consent to be bound by a treaty has been procured through the corruption of its representative directly or indirectly by a negotiating State or a negotiating organization may invoke such corruption as invalidating its consent to be bound by the treaty.

Article 51 Coercion Of A Representative Of A State Or Of An International Organization
The expression by a State or an international organization of consent to be bound by a treaty which has been procured by the coercion of the representative of that State or that organization through acts or threats directed against him shall be without any legal effect.

Article 52 Coercion Of A State Or Of An International Organization By The Threat Or Use Of Force
A treaty is void if its conclusion has been procured by the threat or use of force in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Chatter of the United Nations.

Article 53 Treaties Conflicting With A Peremptory Norm Of General International Law (Jus Cogens)
A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law. For the purposes of the present Convention, a peremptory norm of general international law is a norm accepted and recognized by the international community of States as a whole as a norm from which no derogation is permitted and which can be modified only by a subsequent norm of general international law having the same character.

Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties between States and International Organizations or between International Organizations - Treaty Law​

I am sure that more that one of those apply.

(COMMENT)

You may be sure that one of these prohibitions apply, but I do not --- now, nor have I ever --- had knowledge of a credible accusation, supported by a reasonable source, suggesting that some inappropriate pressure or activity was brought upon President Mahmoud Abbas or the PLO that would have invalidated the Oslo Accord process.

Do you have such knowledge or evidence, or even a credible report of evidence from a first-hand source --- other than hearsay?

I would be most appreciative if you would enlighten me.

‘Abbas’s UN speech won’t announce end of PA’
Israeli official says European diplomats were told Palestinian Authority president won’t terminate Oslo Accords
BY TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF September 21, 2015,

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas last week told European diplomats that, contrary to rumors in the Arab press, he wouldn’t announce the dismantlement of the PA or annulment of the 1993 Oslo Accords in an upcoming UN General Assembly speech, Haaretz quoted an Israeli official saying Sunday.
---
Under the 1993 Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority administers civil and security control over the West Bank’s major cities, which are delineated Area A. Area B is under PA civil control, but is under joint security control with Israel, and Area C — the bulk of the West Bank, is under Israeli control.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You spend too much time on Abbas.

He left the government in June of 2007.

Yet still the UN deals with him and the Palestinian people allow him to represent them on the international scene.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is merely just another example of your inability to recognize what the difference is between what you want to believe --- and --- what is actual reality.

What is it they say? A picture is worth a 1000 words.

You spend too much time on Abbas. He left the government in June of 2007.

(COMMENT)

This is a picture of President Abbas and Secretary General Ban Ki-moon:

View attachment 50961​

The Palestine Government in 2014:

View attachment 50962​

Most Respectfully,
R

OMG, a picture of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Nice government. I bet none of them were approved by parliament as their constitution requires.

That is like a US president swearing in a cabinet without senate approval.

Have the Palestinian people voiced their disapproval of him representing them on the International stage, if not why not ?

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is merely just another example of your inability to recognize what the difference is between what you want to believe --- and --- what is actual reality.

What is it they say? A picture is worth a 1000 words.

You spend too much time on Abbas. He left the government in June of 2007.

(COMMENT)

This is a picture of President Abbas and Secretary General Ban Ki-moon:

View attachment 50961​

The Palestine Government in 2014:

View attachment 50962​

Most Respectfully,
R

OMG, a picture of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Nice government. I bet none of them were approved by parliament as their constitution requires.

That is like a US president swearing in a cabinet without senate approval.

Yet, in your fantasy world, Abbas is not the "president" of an invented people with an invented identity which has become the worlds greatest welfare fraud.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Noor Harazeen

 

[Hollie]

Who are the "Pal'istanians"?

Hamas:‎ We bring our kids up “on love of Jihad and Martyrdom-death”

Source: Facebook page of Hamas' Ministry of ‎Interior‎, Apr. 10, 2015

 

[rylah]

So still no distinct palestinian culture those arabs still maintain?

You know just like any other nation that has real roots to the land.

 

[rylah]

How is this different from the 'palestinian folk culture'?

 

[RoccoR]

rylah, et al,

It is probably a very bad strategy to compare the Muslim riots and rock throwing in the US, UK, Italy, and Hungary with that of the Palestinians. The tolerance for Muslim rioting and multiculturalism is rapidly coming a close.

No Charges For Cops Who Killed Rock-Throwing Immigrant
Three police officers in Pasco, Washington, will not face charges for fatally shooting an immigrant worker who threatened them by throwing rocks last February, prosecutors announced Wednesday.
​

How is this different from the 'palestinian folk culture'?

(COMMENT)

In the UK, and across Europe (Belgium and French in particular), the Radical and Extremist Muslims (not unlike the Hostile Arab Palestinians) are attempting to use force, intimidation, and coercion to dominate areas.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

Should I wait until they establish separate autonomous areas and claim sovereignty?

They're refugees, have the same culture and use the same tactics.
Many of the palestinians even called themselves Syrians once before the invention...

 

[RoccoR]

rylah, et al,

There is a very great dilemma.

Most of the Democracies and Multicultural Nations, face a serious problem between being tolerate of Muslims and allowing unrestricted Immigration, and that of maintain their Pride in Nationalism. Most of Europe believes in the application of secular law (the principle of separating government regulations and institutions from the control of religious institutions and clerics) and the protection of their individual rights.

However, this is clashing with the failure of the Muslim Immigrant to adapt and assimilate to the Western Culture and laws. Several EU Countries are experiencing the establishment of NO-GO Zones run by local Muslim Extremist Gangs and enforcing their own brand of Sharia Law. The UK has a particular problem with this, but it is by no means exclusive to them. Hate Speech prohibitions are but one example of this dilemma. It is perfectly acceptable for the Muslims to hold demonstrations and to march in mass Since 2011, many observers noticed that Turkey (a Muslim Country) suffered severe losses in their economy, tourism, and costs associated with the acceptance of more than 2 million refugees. And again, this is not unique to Turkey. Many EU countries are experiencing a heavy burden being placed on their infrastructure; the cost of which will never be recovered.

Should I wait until they establish separate autonomous areas and claim sovereignty?

They're refugees, have the same culture and use the same tactics.
Many of the palestinians even called themselves Syrians once before the invention...

(COMMENT)

Of course, the political concern on down the timeline and into the future (≈ 2 decades) is that the illegal aliens are going to eventually make EU citizens a minority on the continent.

The Muslim Immigration is simply a search for a better way of life; but a flight from essentially failed Islamic States. The Failed States of the Middle East and North Africa, is basically a Muslim Problem. Libya was Muslim and Muslim, the same is true with the conflict in Syria, Iraq and the tension Iran.

The Democracies and Multicultural Nations are going to have to seriously consider the continued acceptance of Muslim Immigrants base on their demonstrated criminal behaviors and the inability to become part of the nation instead of an internal enemy. Such political discussion will have to happen if the potential for conflicts is to be avoid; and for the survival of their nations.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

I think that there's a clear weakness in Europe's conduct, clearly seen to anyone in the ME. The more they show it the more they welcome to be harassed. Just like muslims treat European women they consider 'easy'. Both Israelis and Arabs laugh at the "political dialogue" option some still believe in.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is merely just another example of your inability to recognize what the difference is between what you want to believe --- and --- what is actual reality.

What is it they say? A picture is worth a 1000 words.

You spend too much time on Abbas. He left the government in June of 2007.

(COMMENT)

This is a picture of President Abbas and Secretary General Ban Ki-moon:

View attachment 50961​

The Palestine Government in 2014:

View attachment 50962​

Most Respectfully,
R

OMG, a picture of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Nice government. I bet none of them were approved by parliament as their constitution requires.

That is like a US president swearing in a cabinet without senate approval.

Have the Palestinian people voiced their disapproval of him representing them on the International stage, if not why not ?

Abbas out of options, out of synch with angry Palestinians

Abbas has lost Palestinian public opinion, according to last week's poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, based on 1,270 respondents, with an error margin of 3 percentage points.

"Two-thirds of the public want him out, they demand that he resign," said pollster Shikaki.

Abbas out of options, out of synch with angry Palestinians

 

[rylah]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is merely just another example of your inability to recognize what the difference is between what you want to believe --- and --- what is actual reality.

What is it they say? A picture is worth a 1000 words.

You spend too much time on Abbas. He left the government in June of 2007.

(COMMENT)

This is a picture of President Abbas and Secretary General Ban Ki-moon:

View attachment 50961​

The Palestine Government in 2014:

View attachment 50962​

Most Respectfully,
R

OMG, a picture of Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Nice government. I bet none of them were approved by parliament as their constitution requires.

That is like a US president swearing in a cabinet without senate approval.

Have the Palestinian people voiced their disapproval of him representing them on the International stage, if not why not ?

Abbas out of options, out of synch with angry Palestinians

Abbas has lost Palestinian public opinion, according to last week's poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, based on 1,270 respondents, with an error margin of 3 percentage points.

"Two-thirds of the public want him out, they demand that he resign," said pollster Shikaki.

Abbas out of options, out of synch with angry Palestinians

The sign has been seen long time on the wall...
They've never seemed to trust him anyway-calling him a collaborator.

Is this the next 'wise' palestinian choice toward self determination?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Marah Zahalka

 

[docmauser1]

Abbas out of options, out of synch with angry Palestinians. Abbas has lost Palestinian public opinion, according to last week's poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, based on 1,270 respondents, with an error margin of 3 percentage points. "Two-thirds of the public want him out, they demand that he resign," said pollster Shikaki. Abbas out of options, out of synch with angry Palestinians

Wake us up when they drag him to the gallows.

 

[docmauser1]

rylah, et al,

It is probably a very bad strategy to compare the Muslim riots and rock throwing in the US, UK, Italy, and Hungary with that of the Palestinians. The tolerance for Muslim rioting and multiculturalism is rapidly coming a close.

No Charges For Cops Who Killed Rock-Throwing Immigrant
Three police officers in Pasco, Washington, will not face charges for fatally shooting an immigrant worker who threatened them by throwing rocks last February, prosecutors announced Wednesday.
​

How is this different from the 'palestinian folk culture'?

(COMMENT)

In the UK, and across Europe (Belgium and French in particular), the Radical and Extremist Muslims (not unlike the Hostile Arab Palestinians) are attempting to use force, intimidation, and coercion to dominate areas.
Most Respectfully,
R

"With hundreds of thousands more migrants set to pour into Sweden, a Bishop in Stockholm has proposed removing crosses from a Christian church and replacing them with Islamic symbols in order to cater for Muslims.
Bishop Eva Brunne wants to remove Christian symbols from the Seamen’s Church to make the building “more inviting” for Muslims, reports SVT, Sweden’s national public TV broadcaster.
“Leasing a room to people of other faiths, does not mean that we are not defenders of our own faith. Priests are called to proclaim Christ. We do that every day and in every meeting with people. But that does not mean that we are hostile toward people of other faiths,” wrote Brunne, attempting to justify the plan.
Brunne, who is the first openly lesbian bishop of a mainstream church in the world, wants the church to be treated more like a public airport, where prayer rooms are made available to Muslims, by removing Christian symbols and “marking the direction of Mecca.”" Paul Joseph Watson, Oct.5, 2015
Doubt that will promote "multiculturalism" among the hoi polloi.

 

[Phoenall]

Who are the Palestinians?

Marah Zahalka

More of your islamonazi propaganda ?