Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Then don't believe it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

It is what it is.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I already gave you all the links.

Then you are just being obstinate.

(COMMENT)

If you don't see the difference between the two recognitions, and you don't see the difference between NIAC and IAC, then your are just not capable of comprehending.

The two cannot be in the same place and simultaneously be an IAC. And the two cannot be NIAC and still subject to War Crime (Article 8) Investigations by the ICC. You simply cannot have both be true. Israel and Palestine are separate recognitions and separate sovereignties; not co-located.

Most Respectfully,
R

Links?

(COMMENT)

Posting #972 has the links to the Elements of the Offense, (See Article * War Crimes). See A/RES/273 (III) (1949) for the recognition of Israel; and see A/RES/43/177 (1988) for the recognition of Palestine. See the ICRC Resource Center for the definitions of a IAC and NAIC.

Most Respectfully,
R

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

(COMMENT)

You can believe what you want. Your criteria is not the determining factor of any peaceful settlement.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is not what I "believe."

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

(COMMENT)

The conflict with the Hostile Arab Palestinians is all about the conflict in interpretation of the Treaties that Israel has with Jordan and Egypt, stipulating the international boundaries, and the interpretations the Hostile Arab Palestinian (like your self) have failed to resolve.

But don't confuse:

The difference between IAC and NAIC.
The issue of "land, territory, or borders" relative to official recognition as a state.
The difference between official recognition and territorial disputes between the Israelis and the Hostile Arab Palestinians.
​

You may want the world to organize itself along the lines you have defined. But the reality is that --- it does not always work that way. The fact is, that the State of Palestine is officially recognized by the:

• UN as: "Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;"
• PLO Negotiation Affairs Department as: "The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt."

Whatever you want to believe is OK with me.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

Thank You for this interesting example of what the right education
and conditions (family) can do.

She is indeed a talented person, a prodigy in biochemistry and mathematics. "By the age of 13, Iqbal had not only learnt to drive, she had caught the eye of Lebanon's education minister, who helped her to secure a medical scholarship in Qatar."

Not to diminish her personal abilities and
achievements, but that's not a 'palestinian' culture.

I asked myself is it a regular muslim, palestinian family she grew in?
Is it regular for women to drive, and especially this age in that community?
Then asked myself which education did she actually get?

"And this year, at 20, she became not only the youngest ever medical graduate from Cornell University's Qatar branch, but possibly the youngest Arab doctor ever...

"The sky is the limit for Iqbal."

There is just one problem: Iqbal cannot work as a doctor in Lebanon, the country of her birth. "My dream is to come back to do something for the Palestinian refugees in the camps, even by opening a free clinic for them," she says.

"But if you're a Palestinian doctor, you're not allowed to work in public hospitals."

Palestinian child prodigy becomes doctor at age 20 | The National

Again I'm always happy to see young people reach success, especially when the intent is good. But what bout some native Palestinian culture those tribes maintain?

She is a part of the regular Palestinian culture.

Palestine is not Saudi Arabia - women drive and women are educated. In fact, they are well educated, but the culture still blocks them out of a lot of jobs - like we were 50 years ago: Palestinian women are well educated, but do not find good jobs

It's really sad she can't work in Lebanon, because she's a Palestinian

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Then don't believe it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

It is what it is.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I already gave you all the links.

Links?

(COMMENT)

Posting #972 has the links to the Elements of the Offense, (See Article * War Crimes). See A/RES/273 (III) (1949) for the recognition of Israel; and see A/RES/43/177 (1988) for the recognition of Palestine. See the ICRC Resource Center for the definitions of a IAC and NAIC.

Most Respectfully,
R

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

(COMMENT)

You can believe what you want. Your criteria is not the determining factor of any peaceful settlement.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is not what I "believe."

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

(COMMENT)

The conflict with the Hostile Arab Palestinians is all about the conflict in interpretation of the Treaties that Israel has with Jordan and Egypt, stipulating the international boundaries, and the interpretations the Hostile Arab Palestinian (like your self) have failed to resolve.

But don't confuse:

The difference between IAC and NAIC.
The issue of "land, territory, or borders" relative to official recognition as a state.
The difference between official recognition and territorial disputes between the Israelis and the Hostile Arab Palestinians.
​

You may want the world to organize itself along the lines you have defined. But the reality is that --- it does not always work that way. The fact is, that the State of Palestine is officially recognized by the:

• UN as: "Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;"
• PLO Negotiation Affairs Department as: "The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt."

Whatever you want to believe is OK with me.

Most Respectfully,
R

They are referencing "borders" that were never borders. The UN has no authority over borders.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Thank You for this interesting example of what the right education
and conditions (family) can do.

She is indeed a talented person, a prodigy in biochemistry and mathematics. "By the age of 13, Iqbal had not only learnt to drive, she had caught the eye of Lebanon's education minister, who helped her to secure a medical scholarship in Qatar."

Not to diminish her personal abilities and
achievements, but that's not a 'palestinian' culture.

I asked myself is it a regular muslim, palestinian family she grew in?
Is it regular for women to drive, and especially this age in that community?
Then asked myself which education did she actually get?

"And this year, at 20, she became not only the youngest ever medical graduate from Cornell University's Qatar branch, but possibly the youngest Arab doctor ever...

"The sky is the limit for Iqbal."

There is just one problem: Iqbal cannot work as a doctor in Lebanon, the country of her birth. "My dream is to come back to do something for the Palestinian refugees in the camps, even by opening a free clinic for them," she says.

"But if you're a Palestinian doctor, you're not allowed to work in public hospitals."

Palestinian child prodigy becomes doctor at age 20 | The National

Again I'm always happy to see young people reach success, especially when the intent is good. But what bout some native Palestinian culture those tribes maintain?

She is a part of the regular Palestinian culture.

Palestine is not Saudi Arabia - women drive and women are educated. In fact, they are well educated, but the culture still blocks them out of a lot of jobs - like we were 50 years ago: Palestinian women are well educated, but do not find good jobs

It's really sad she can't work in Lebanon, because she's a Palestinian

A Palestinian friend of mine came to the US under some refugee deal. He became a US citizen. He owns a business. The problem is that his wife and two pre teen daughters live in Jordan. They are not even allowed to visit here. He has to go to Jordan to see his wife and kids.

That is the problem that Palestinians have. They get jerked around all over the world.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are still confused.

They are referencing "borders" that were never borders. The UN has no authority over borders.

(COMMENT)

There is a difference between the recognition of borders by the UN and the assignment of borders by the UN. We are talking about the recognition of the border. You may ask why they recognize it. And it is the same reason nations have used since the time of the Treaty of Westphalia.

REMEMBER: Key Principle

In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, the borders are defined by the extension of sovereign control. Internationally, this sovereign control is very easy to recognize. Just as most countries of the world, Israel establishes and defends it territory and extends its sovereign control over it.

In contrast, The State of Palestine has no sovereign control. It is the Palestinians which have to negotiate with the Israelis for sovereign control and the determination of the mutual borders; not the other way around. As long as the State of Palestine fails or avoid establishing terms of peace, the longer it will be that the State of Palestine and its sovereignty is in question; temporarily determined by the Israelis. The Palestinians can vocally claim any territory it wants. But it is Israel that determines how far Palestinian control may extend. In effect, the border is where ever Israel establishes it and defends it against Palestinian aggression; since there is no agreement on peace with Palestine, nor is there likely to be a peace agreement in the near future.

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.
​

It is the State of Palestine that is the aggressor nation relative to the potential for sovereignty. Elements of the Palestinian Government have establish a de facto state of war with Israel. And it is this State of War that threatens the peace and security within the region. The Hostile Arab Palestinians have established a policy that:

"No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; and it will not be long, God willing."
​

In this case, when the Palestinians define "Palestine," they include the State of Israel. When the Hostile Arab Palestinian talks of "occupation," they include the State of Israel as "occupied Palestinian territory." This is what is meant by "legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine." Thus, the State of Palestine has a policy that it will evict the State of Israel at its first opportunity. This is: "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence against the State of Israel." Nothing in the present UN Charter impairs the inherent right of the State of Israel to defend itself against armed attack, --- or threat to use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence against the State of Israel, --- from whatever aspect of Palestine it may be originating.

Quasi-recognition (observer status) for the State of Palestine is based largely on the sympathy vote. The lack of effective and independent governmental control has, in the past, served as a basis for the non-recognition of an entity as a sovereign state. However, the Palestinian Leadership has asserted that the governmental institutions created under the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO satisfy this criterion of statehood. Even if this is true, it would again demonstrate the influence of Israel in the matter.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are still confused.

They are referencing "borders" that were never borders. The UN has no authority over borders.

(COMMENT)

There is a difference between the recognition of borders by the UN and the assignment of borders by the UN. We are talking about the recognition of the border. You may ask why they recognize it. And it is the same reason nations have used since the time of the Treaty of Westphalia.

REMEMBER: Key Principle

In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, the borders are defined by the extension of sovereign control. Internationally, this sovereign control is very easy to recognize. Just as most countries of the world, Israel establishes and defends it territory and extends its sovereign control over it.

In contrast, The State of Palestine has no sovereign control. It is the Palestinians which have to negotiate with the Israelis for sovereign control and the determination of the mutual borders; not the other way around. As long as the State of Palestine fails or avoid establishing terms of peace, the longer it will be that the State of Palestine and its sovereignty is in question; temporarily determined by the Israelis. The Palestinians can vocally claim any territory it wants. But it is Israel that determines how far Palestinian control may extend. In effect, the border is where ever Israel establishes it and defends it against Palestinian aggression; since there is no agreement on peace with Palestine, nor is there likely to be a peace agreement in the near future.

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.
​

It is the State of Palestine that is the aggressor nation relative to the potential for sovereignty. Elements of the Palestinian Government have establish a de facto state of war with Israel. And it is this State of War that threatens the peace and security within the region. The Hostile Arab Palestinians have established a policy that:

"No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; and it will not be long, God willing."
​

In this case, when the Palestinians define "Palestine," they include the State of Israel. When the Hostile Arab Palestinian talks of "occupation," they include the State of Israel as "occupied Palestinian territory." This is what is meant by "legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine." Thus, the State of Palestine has a policy that it will evict the State of Israel at its first opportunity. This is: "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence against the State of Israel." Nothing in the present UN Charter impairs the inherent right of the State of Israel to defend itself against armed attack, --- or threat to use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence against the State of Israel, --- from whatever aspect of Palestine it may be originating.

Quasi-recognition (observer status) for the State of Palestine is based largely on the sympathy vote. The lack of effective and independent governmental control has, in the past, served as a basis for the non-recognition of an entity as a sovereign state. However, the Palestinian Leadership has asserted that the governmental institutions created under the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO satisfy this criterion of statehood. Even if this is true, it would again demonstrate the influence of Israel in the matter.

Most Respectfully,
R

Just as most countries of the world, Israel establishes and defends it territory and extends its sovereign control over it.

Where, exactly, is that territory and how did Israel acquire it?

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I think it is the other way around. You did not read and comprehend.

You didn't read my post.

(COMMENT)

It doesn't matter what happened, as a cause for the conflict, or a prelude to self determination, both sides had Palestinian Citizenship from the exact same source of authority.

If, in fact, the Mantra is correct, then the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is of an NAIC complexion. And that poses serious problems and consequences for the Palestinians.

How so?

(COMMENT)

The Mantra says that all of the territory to which the Mandate applied is all one geo-political entity "(Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south )." If that is true, then all the combatants reside in that single geo-political entity. That means that it is a "non-international armed conflict (NIAC)." If that is the case then --- there are many "alleged war crimes" (Article 8 issues) that by definition could not have occur because one of the elements to the offense for most "war crimes" is that "the conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict " (IAC).

However, I think that since the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the UN itself, allowed the State of Palestine to sign on to various treaties, and under treaty law, that can only be done by "states," then for all intent and purposes Israel is not part of Palestine, and Palestine is not part of Israel; and they are each recognized separately. That make any conflict between the two an IAC.

This puts all the international terrorism and counter-terrorism documentation in play and applicable. It also makes the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), as a government sponsored party, subject to the various Customary International Humanitarian Laws. And that would also make the Palestinian Mantra invalid.

Most Respectfully,
R

This puts all the international terrorism and counter-terrorism documentation in play and applicable.​

You still have not shown where Israel and Palestine are not in the same place.

Only because you refuse to accept international treaties and UN documentation that supports Israel's legal existence.

1) the Jews declared independence from the mandate on May 14 1948

2) the UN accepted the declaration and allowed it to stand under the mandate

3) the arab league tried to counter claim on land already claimed by Israel and saw their claim thrown out as invalid

4) the UN accepted Israel as a legal entity and accepted it as a nation

5) the evidence shows that you are refusing to accept anything that supports Israel being a nation on land granted under international treaty in 1923 and under the UN resolution 181 because you support islamonazi terrorism

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are still confused.

They are referencing "borders" that were never borders. The UN has no authority over borders.

(COMMENT)

There is a difference between the recognition of borders by the UN and the assignment of borders by the UN. We are talking about the recognition of the border. You may ask why they recognize it. And it is the same reason nations have used since the time of the Treaty of Westphalia.

REMEMBER: Key Principle

In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, the borders are defined by the extension of sovereign control. Internationally, this sovereign control is very easy to recognize. Just as most countries of the world, Israel establishes and defends it territory and extends its sovereign control over it.

In contrast, The State of Palestine has no sovereign control. It is the Palestinians which have to negotiate with the Israelis for sovereign control and the determination of the mutual borders; not the other way around. As long as the State of Palestine fails or avoid establishing terms of peace, the longer it will be that the State of Palestine and its sovereignty is in question; temporarily determined by the Israelis. The Palestinians can vocally claim any territory it wants. But it is Israel that determines how far Palestinian control may extend. In effect, the border is where ever Israel establishes it and defends it against Palestinian aggression; since there is no agreement on peace with Palestine, nor is there likely to be a peace agreement in the near future.

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.
​

It is the State of Palestine that is the aggressor nation relative to the potential for sovereignty. Elements of the Palestinian Government have establish a de facto state of war with Israel. And it is this State of War that threatens the peace and security within the region. The Hostile Arab Palestinians have established a policy that:

"No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; and it will not be long, God willing."
​

In this case, when the Palestinians define "Palestine," they include the State of Israel. When the Hostile Arab Palestinian talks of "occupation," they include the State of Israel as "occupied Palestinian territory." This is what is meant by "legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine." Thus, the State of Palestine has a policy that it will evict the State of Israel at its first opportunity. This is: "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence against the State of Israel." Nothing in the present UN Charter impairs the inherent right of the State of Israel to defend itself against armed attack, --- or threat to use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence against the State of Israel, --- from whatever aspect of Palestine it may be originating.

Quasi-recognition (observer status) for the State of Palestine is based largely on the sympathy vote. The lack of effective and independent governmental control has, in the past, served as a basis for the non-recognition of an entity as a sovereign state. However, the Palestinian Leadership has asserted that the governmental institutions created under the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO satisfy this criterion of statehood. Even if this is true, it would again demonstrate the influence of Israel in the matter.

Most Respectfully,
R

Just as most countries of the world, Israel establishes and defends it territory and extends its sovereign control over it.

Where, exactly, is that territory and how did Israel acquire it?

Where ever Israel says it is inside the area delineated by the mandate of Palestine


Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory

PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.




This land was acquired under international law of 1923 that granted the land to the Jews as their NATIONal home.



The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and

Whereas the mandate in respect of Palestine has been formulated in the following terms and submitted to the Council of the League for approval; and

Whereas His Britannic Majesty has accepted the mandate in respect of Palestine and undertaken to exercise it on behalf of the League of Nations in conformity with the following provisions; and

Whereas by the afore-mentioned Article 22 (paragraph 8), it is provided that the degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory, not having been previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, shall be explicitly defined by the Council of the League Of Nations;

confirming the said Mandate, defines its terms as follows:


ARTICLE 1.
The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate.

ART. 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 3.
The Mandatory shall, so far as circumstances permit, encourage local autonomy.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ART. 5.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of the Government of any foreign Power.

ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

ART. 7.
The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.



So you see the land was acquired under international treaty and international law as far back as 1923, but you will ignore this as it does not mention the arab muslims claims to land that was never theirs since 1099

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Then you are just being obstinate.

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I think it is the other way around. You did not read and comprehend.

You didn't read my post.

(COMMENT)

It doesn't matter what happened, as a cause for the conflict, or a prelude to self determination, both sides had Palestinian Citizenship from the exact same source of authority.

If, in fact, the Mantra is correct, then the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is of an NAIC complexion. And that poses serious problems and consequences for the Palestinians.

How so?

(COMMENT)

The Mantra says that all of the territory to which the Mandate applied is all one geo-political entity "(Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south )." If that is true, then all the combatants reside in that single geo-political entity. That means that it is a "non-international armed conflict (NIAC)." If that is the case then --- there are many "alleged war crimes" (Article 8 issues) that by definition could not have occur because one of the elements to the offense for most "war crimes" is that "the conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict " (IAC).

However, I think that since the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the UN itself, allowed the State of Palestine to sign on to various treaties, and under treaty law, that can only be done by "states," then for all intent and purposes Israel is not part of Palestine, and Palestine is not part of Israel; and they are each recognized separately. That make any conflict between the two an IAC.

This puts all the international terrorism and counter-terrorism documentation in play and applicable. It also makes the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), as a government sponsored party, subject to the various Customary International Humanitarian Laws. And that would also make the Palestinian Mantra invalid.

Most Respectfully,
R

This puts all the international terrorism and counter-terrorism documentation in play and applicable.​

You still have not shown where Israel and Palestine are not in the same place.

(COMMENT)

If you don't see the difference between the two recognitions, and you don't see the difference between NIAC and IAC, then your are just not capable of comprehending.

The two cannot be in the same place and simultaneously be an IAC. And the two cannot be NIAC and still subject to War Crime (Article 8) Investigations by the ICC. You simply cannot have both be true. Israel and Palestine are separate recognitions and separate sovereignties; not co-located.

Most Respectfully,
R

Links?

Read the previous posts that supplied them, or are you too lazy or just obstinate

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You can use that logic if you want; for all the good that it will do you.

You are correct in one respect. The term "civil war" is not a term with a legal description. The correct terms are "international armed conflicts" (IAC), and "non-international armed conflicts (NIAC);" as discussed in Posting #972.

Civil War is a historical term used to describe a conflict between factions holding the same citizenship; or, a war between citizens of the same country. In this case we are talking about two factions in conflict holding the same Palestinian Citizenship. The nature, dispute, or proximate cause of the "Civil War" (emancipation, self-determination, immigration, cessions etc) has no being as to the character description. The conflict between the two factions with the same citizenship, was aggravated by the external interference by the Arab League; creating an Article 51 Self-Defense Issue. But you are free to alter the meaning of the term in any fashion you want.

Close but no cigar.

The "civil war" was a say so thing. Here is why.

What is the meaning of the "homeland of the Jews?" According to the Mandate the Jews would immigrate to Palestine and get Palestinian citizenship. They would live among the Palestinians and enjoy the rights of citizenship like living anywhere they liked in Palestine.

This is classic immigration. This is what the Mandate specified. This is not what happened.

The foreign Zionists got foreign money and created colonies. They imported Jews by the boatload to populate their colonies with the stated goal of taking over Palestine and creating a Jewish state. They had their own institutions and government, including their own military, that were separate from Palestine.

When the Zionist colonial project moved against the native population to create their Jewish state, it was not a "civil war."

(COMMENT)

The point of the discussion was the impact of the Palestinian Mantra.

MANTRA:

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; and it will not be long, God willing.​

If, in fact, the Mantra is correct, then the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is of an NAIC complexion. And that poses serious problems and consequences for the Palestinians.

But the fact that the State of Israel and the State of Palestine have signed treaties, and entered into international agreements, voiding the NAIC concept and making the IAC the rule of the day. And so, the Mantra is wrong and invalid given what has evolved.

Most Respectfully,
R

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.​

You have never shown where that is false.

I have as it was never arab muslim land from 1099 when they were evicted. The mandate clearly delineates the land granted to the Jews as their NATIONal home



Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory

PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I already gave you all the links.

Then you are just being obstinate.

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I think it is the other way around. You did not read and comprehend.

(COMMENT)

It doesn't matter what happened, as a cause for the conflict, or a prelude to self determination, both sides had Palestinian Citizenship from the exact same source of authority.

(COMMENT)

The Mantra says that all of the territory to which the Mandate applied is all one geo-political entity "(Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south )." If that is true, then all the combatants reside in that single geo-political entity. That means that it is a "non-international armed conflict (NIAC)." If that is the case then --- there are many "alleged war crimes" (Article 8 issues) that by definition could not have occur because one of the elements to the offense for most "war crimes" is that "the conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict " (IAC).

However, I think that since the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the UN itself, allowed the State of Palestine to sign on to various treaties, and under treaty law, that can only be done by "states," then for all intent and purposes Israel is not part of Palestine, and Palestine is not part of Israel; and they are each recognized separately. That make any conflict between the two an IAC.

This puts all the international terrorism and counter-terrorism documentation in play and applicable. It also makes the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), as a government sponsored party, subject to the various Customary International Humanitarian Laws. And that would also make the Palestinian Mantra invalid.

Most Respectfully,
R

This puts all the international terrorism and counter-terrorism documentation in play and applicable.​

You still have not shown where Israel and Palestine are not in the same place.

(COMMENT)

If you don't see the difference between the two recognitions, and you don't see the difference between NIAC and IAC, then your are just not capable of comprehending.

The two cannot be in the same place and simultaneously be an IAC. And the two cannot be NIAC and still subject to War Crime (Article 8) Investigations by the ICC. You simply cannot have both be true. Israel and Palestine are separate recognitions and separate sovereignties; not co-located.

Most Respectfully,
R

Links?

(COMMENT)

Posting #972 has the links to the Elements of the Offense, (See Article * War Crimes). See A/RES/273 (III) (1949) for the recognition of Israel; and see A/RES/43/177 (1988) for the recognition of Palestine. See the ICRC Resource Center for the definitions of a IAC and NAIC.

Most Respectfully,
R

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

But the mandate did


Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory

PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

It is what it is.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I already gave you all the links.

Then you are just being obstinate.

(COMMENT)

If you don't see the difference between the two recognitions, and you don't see the difference between NIAC and IAC, then your are just not capable of comprehending.

The two cannot be in the same place and simultaneously be an IAC. And the two cannot be NIAC and still subject to War Crime (Article 8) Investigations by the ICC. You simply cannot have both be true. Israel and Palestine are separate recognitions and separate sovereignties; not co-located.

Most Respectfully,
R

Links?

(COMMENT)

Posting #972 has the links to the Elements of the Offense, (See Article * War Crimes). See A/RES/273 (III) (1949) for the recognition of Israel; and see A/RES/43/177 (1988) for the recognition of Palestine. See the ICRC Resource Center for the definitions of a IAC and NAIC.

Most Respectfully,
R

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

(COMMENT)

You can believe what you want. Your criteria is not the determining factor of any peaceful settlement.

Most Respectfully,
R

It is not what I "believe."

None of those define land, territory, or borders.

But the mandate does





Delineating the final geographical area of Palestine designated for the Jewish National Home on September 16, 1922, as described by the Mandatory:11

PALESTINE


INTRODUCTORY.


POSITION, ETC.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between Latitude 30º N. and 33º N., Longitude 34º 30’ E. and 35º 30’ E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows: -

North. – From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.

East. – From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya’pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi Araba to a point on the Gulf of Aqaba two miles west of the town of Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Jaba.

South. – From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki-Aqaba and Gaza-Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.

West. – The Mediterranean Sea.

 

[Phoenall]

Thank You for this interesting example of what the right education
and conditions (family) can do.

She is indeed a talented person, a prodigy in biochemistry and mathematics. "By the age of 13, Iqbal had not only learnt to drive, she had caught the eye of Lebanon's education minister, who helped her to secure a medical scholarship in Qatar."

Not to diminish her personal abilities and
achievements, but that's not a 'palestinian' culture.

I asked myself is it a regular muslim, palestinian family she grew in?
Is it regular for women to drive, and especially this age in that community?
Then asked myself which education did she actually get?

"And this year, at 20, she became not only the youngest ever medical graduate from Cornell University's Qatar branch, but possibly the youngest Arab doctor ever...

"The sky is the limit for Iqbal."

There is just one problem: Iqbal cannot work as a doctor in Lebanon, the country of her birth. "My dream is to come back to do something for the Palestinian refugees in the camps, even by opening a free clinic for them," she says.

"But if you're a Palestinian doctor, you're not allowed to work in public hospitals."

Palestinian child prodigy becomes doctor at age 20 | The National

Again I'm always happy to see young people reach success, especially when the intent is good. But what bout some native Palestinian culture those tribes maintain?

She is a part of the regular Palestinian culture.

Palestine is not Saudi Arabia - women drive and women are educated. In fact, they are well educated, but the culture still blocks them out of a lot of jobs - like we were 50 years ago: Palestinian women are well educated, but do not find good jobs

It's really sad she can't work in Lebanon, because she's a Palestinian

A Palestinian friend of mine came to the US under some refugee deal. He became a US citizen. He owns a business. The problem is that his wife and two pre teen daughters live in Jordan. They are not even allowed to visit here. He has to go to Jordan to see his wife and kids.

That is the problem that Palestinians have. They get jerked around all over the world.

Because of their actions over the years that have shown them to be violent terrorists, and that mud has stuck on them all

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinans?

Daoud Nassar

 

[Hollie]

Who are the Pal'istanians?

Promoting violence & terror | PMW

PA-Fatah summer camp for kids: AK-47 automatic weapons and youth in military uniforms dancing with rifles

Fatah-run Awdah TV program Morning of my Homeland reports on the fifth summer camp ‘Jerusalem in the Eyes of the Lion Cubs and Flowers of Palestine.’

The report begins by showing children wearing uniforms and carrying rifles performing a folk dance. The camp was eight days long and was organized by the PA National Security Forces. More than 150 children of “Martyrs” (Shahids) and prisoners participated in the camp. The camp took place in Sebastia in the Nablus district, in coordination with the Fatah youth movement ‘Institution for Lion Cubs and Flowers of Palestine’ (translated to English on their shirts as ‘Institution for Young Boys and Girls).

 

[Phoenall]

Who are the Palestinans?

Daoud Nassar

Why wont they admit that they have brought it all on themselves by their actions

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinans?

Daoud Nassar

Why wont they admit that they have brought it all on themselves by their actions

Like what. That has been their farm since the Ottoman period.

It is the foreign assholes who make all the problems.

 

[Phoenall]

Who are the Palestinans?

Daoud Nassar

Why wont they admit that they have brought it all on themselves by their actions

Like what. That has been their farm since the Ottoman period.

It is the foreign assholes who make all the problems.

What does that prove other than you believe what the arab muslims say. What evidence is there of it being a farm owned by arab muslims since 1916( that is when the Ottomans were driven out of Palestine ) Maybe if they had not decided back then that they would resort to violent means to stop the birth of the Jewish NATIONal home then they would not be getting bothered.


I agree the foreign arab muslim assholes that invaded the land from 1917 because they did not want anyone else to have it.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

And there it one of them. One of several key issues with the Palestinians.

Just as most countries of the world, Israel establishes and defends it territory and extends its sovereign control over it.

Where, exactly, is that territory and how did Israel acquire it?

(EXHIBIT)

EXEMPLAR: The Israeli Security Barrier
"The Israeli government says the purpose of the security barrier is to prevent
terrorists from entering Israeli cities, a problem which has plagued Israel since the start of the Al-Aqsa Intifada.
Its secondary purpose is to prevent illegal infiltrations of Palestinians, mainly illegal immigrants and car thieves.
Political commentators have suggested a wide variety of other explanations.
Only small parts of the fence are made of concrete wall - 8 miles around Qalqiliya and around
Jerusalem - where shooting attacks toward Israelis have occured."
​

(COMMENT)

Often confused, is the difference between "recognition" of a state and the "border" of a state. Recognition is a political action that declares a state of being:

• The State of Israel exists
• The State of Palestine exists

The limit of that existence is called the border or International Boundary.

There is a formal legal process by which the Israelis and Palestinians MUST eventually traverse wherein the two sovereign nations establish in writing the location of their common boundary. This is called the "Delimitations Process." Most often it is the outcome of a negotiation. Examples are:

Article II (and associated Annexes), Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979: The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine.

Article 3 (and associated Annexes), Treaty of Peace between the Government of the State of Israel and the Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, 26 October 1994: The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I(a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein. (Joint Boundary Commission involved)
​

There are TWO very interest things in common with these two treaties relative to the recognition of international boundaries:

First, is that they both use the boundary of the territory to which the former Mandate for Palestine applied.

Second, they both make note that the agreement was undertaken without prejudice to the issue of the status either the Gaza Strip (in the case of the treaty with Egypt) or the West Bank (in the case of the treaty with Jordan). It was pretty clear that neither Egypt or Jordan wanted the Treaty seen as an admission that could be used against the Arab Palestinians in future with any determinative legal effect. They wanted to protect the development of self-government in these two areas from any adverse consequence. In deed, in 1988, the PLO declared independence.
​

But the greatest and most definitive evidence of a sovereign state border (all paper aside) is the effective control over territorial space (or a defined territory) is usually a prerequisite. Article I of the 1933 Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States identifies a "defined territory." There is no more a definitive example of a border (effective control) then the exemplar (supra).

ARTICLE 3

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts.

The exercise of these rights has no other limitation than the exercise of the rights of other states according to international law.
​

The State of Israel does not actually need recognition from the Hostile Arab Palestinians. Within the territory defined, it defends the boundary and exercises effective control within that boundary.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Leila Sansour





This is the part that is really sad.