Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore

Is this too difficult for you to follow?

Prove what? There is nothing in my post which requires "proof". That there are two distinct groups in "Palestine"? Self-evident. The one of them has exercised their right to sovereignty? Self-evident. That there is nothing in law which prevents a State from forming two States based on the self-determination of two distinct cultural groups? One can't prove a negative. If you think you have some sort of proof to negate my claim -- present it.

Not true. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Of the 37 people who signed the declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. Where were the "Palestinian Jews?" These were all foreigners.

WRONG Israel was created by the Jews that were legal citizens of palestine under current international laws. They were all in Palestine the day the declaration was made.

The arab muslims were not cohesive and were split into 8 factions each wanting its own slice of the cake, and the Egyptians got there first and tried to steal Jewish lands by legal subterfuge.

Your smokescreen is dispersed as soon as you deploy it because the Zionists were legally accepted as being the spokesman for the Jews, the A.P.G. had refused to take part and so were not accepted as being legal.

the A.P.G. had refused to take part and so were not accepted as being legal.​

Refused to take part in what?

The formation of the APG and its declaration of independence was 100% legal.

The UN partition plan for starters. And it goes all the way back to 1917 when they refused as a body to be involved with any of the details of the mandate. So they lost everything they could have had

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al

As tou say My "post is so incoherent I don't know where to start."

As I have stated before, the PLO started going weird in the 1970s and have since gone off the rails. And then you critique what they say through your misinformation. Your post is so incoherent I don't know where to start.

One thing you always get wrong is that Jordan annexed the West Bank. That did not happen. The West Bank was occupied Palestinian territory. Israel took over that occupation in 1967. It is still occupied Palestinian territory.

(QUESTION)

What country relinquished all ties and withdrew all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988?
What Arab activity of any description, maintained sovereign control over the West Bank on 1 Aug 1988?

Most Respectfully,
R

You are trying to smokescreen the issue.

The Palestinians have had the right to sovereignty since the Treaty of Lausanne. That they have had an occupation gun in their face since their inception preventing them from exercising that right does not negate that right.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think that you might want to reassess the Republic, the Statesman, the Laws.

You are trying to smokescreen the issue.

(COMMENT)

There is no smoke screen. You can either answer the questions or you can't. The answers will point directly to the status of the West Bank at the time of the alleged theft from the Arab Palestinians.

What country relinquished all ties and withdrew all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988?
What Arab activity of any description, maintained sovereign control over the West Bank on 1 Aug 1988?
​

The Palestinians have had the right to sovereignty since the Treaty of Lausanne. That they have had an occupation gun in their face since their inception preventing them from exercising that right does not negate that right.

(COMMENT)

The Treaty of Lausanne really does not address any global right --- either of sovereignty or self-determination. As has been said several times, Article 16 places the title and rights of the territory in the hands of the Allied Powers. NOT in the hand of the indigenous population. This is further covered under Article 27:

ARTICLE 27.

No power or jurisdiction in political, legislative or administrative matters shall be exercised outside Turkish territory by the Turkish Government or authorities, for any reason whatsoever, over the nationals of a territory placed under the sovereignty or protectorate of the other Powers signatory of the present Treaty, or over the nationals of a territory detached from Turkey.

It is understood that the spiritual attributions of the Moslem religious authorities are in no way infringed.
​

Now, in the 14 Points under President Wilson's post-War Peace, it is important to remember that, Point #12, directly applicable to the Middle East, is limited in scope:

12. The Turkish portions of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.
​

It is important to understand that self-determination was not recognized as a "right" but as a "unmolested opportunity." Self-determination was simply not fully developed. In the post-conflict phase of the Israeli War of independence (mid-1949), self-determination was not addressed until 1988, by the Arab Palestinians.

Again, this is not a "smokescreen;" but, an acknowledgement of a lack of dedication and commitment to the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States.

Most Respectfully,
R

In the post-conflict phase of the Israeli War of independence (mid-1949), self-determination was not addressed until 1988, by the Arab Palestinians.​

More crapola from Rocco.

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

It is important to understand that self-determination was not recognized as a "right" but as a "unmolested opportunity."

Oh jeese.

They had 30 years to declare their self determination to a state, and it was only after the Egyptians with the arab League formed the All palestinian government and tried to claim land already designated by the Jews as their national home. Does this mean that the US can send a letter to the UN stating that as of 1st November 2016 the lands of mecca and medina will be American sovereign lands and it will be legal ?

Now why do you think the UN ignored this letter, and told Egypt to try again

Not true. Every Palestinian who made a move to self determination was arrested, exiled, or killed by the British.

The Palestinians only claimed land inside their own international borders. What part of Israel would be inside Palestine's international borders? That the Palestinians claimed land already designated by the Jews is just an Israeli lie. Show me a 1948 map of Israel or a document defining its borders and where the Palestinian declaration encroaches on that territory.

LIAR if that was true you would have posted the links. What you mean is every arab muslim illegal migrant that resorted to violence, acts of war and terrorism were arrested. The same happened to the Jews

What international borders as none existed and still dont, your one and only link actually states the borders are those of the mandate of palestine.

I have given you the 1922 definitive delination of the LoN grant for the Jewish national home, others have given you the partition plan map. Where is your map of the nation of palestine from 1917 then that you have been asked for and refuse to produce, or even 1948 or 1988 ?

Nice deflection. You did not refute anything in my post.

 

[P F Tinmore]

She's not Palestinian -- she's European.

Why do you say that?

She wasn't born in Palestine. She has never even visited.

Forced exile does not change your nationality.

Thank you. I'll remember you said that.

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history. That does not say that any Muslim or Christian from anywhere can "return" there because they share a religion.

 

[Shusha]

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history.

The expulsion of the Jewish people is also recorded history.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history.

The expulsion of the Jewish people is also recorded history.

Anyone who can trace their ancestry there has the right to return.

 

[Shusha]

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history.

The expulsion of the Jewish people is also recorded history.

Anyone who can trace their ancestry there has the right to return.

Trace their ancestry how?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Haya Ayoub

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

For the hundredth time, your understanding of this is wrong. But in every good piece of Hostile Arab Palestinian Propaganda, there are slight pieces of "truth." That is what makes it sound so good.

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

(COMMENT)

First, --- you are correct. A/RES/181(II) was a "Recommendation" and a "Non-binding" Resolution.

BUT!

• It was not implemented in the same sense by the Security Council because it was not a "Binding Resolution."
• The Implementation was overseen by the Security Council through the eyes of the United Nations Palestine Commission (UNPC); which reported to the Security Council.
• The UNPC did make it clear in its last sentence of Clause #5 PAL/169: "In fact the resolution of last November 29 was implemented."

UNPC PAL/169 17 MAY 1948​

• You are correct, the recommendation was in the form of an "Offer Extended by the UN and a voluntary Acceptance by either of the clients under the Mandate;" and which the Arab Palestinians declined (not unexpected - following their established pattern of belligerent uncooperativeness); and the Jewish Agency accepting the offer and recommendations.
• With the exception of the obstructiveness applied by the Arab League, and the initiation of hostilities as the aggressor --- crossing their internationally recognized frontiers, the Jewish Agency/Provisional Government attempted to comply with the Steps Preparatory to Independence as recommended in A/RES/181 (II) --- and as overseen by the UNPC and the International Community.
• Intervention by the Arab League use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the newly established State of Israel [(Declarative Form ••• Self-Determination)(as recommended by the UN Resolution)] prevented further development towards the objectives of A/RES/181(II).
• The combat outcome of the 1948 War opened by the unsanctioned intervention of Arab League Forces attempting to attain that which they were unsuccessful in achieving though peace means, was not favorable to the Arab League. While the Egyptians were successful in taking by force territory (Gaza Strip) formally under the Mandate for Palestine --- and --- the Jordanians were successful in taking by force the territory (West Bank) formally under the Mandate for Palestine, other areas were lost to Israel after the Israeli Defense Force pursued retreating Arab Forces.
​

Given the unproductive, unhelpful, recalcitrant attitude of the Arab Palestinians --- and the general unwillingness to achieve anything even close to the intentions of the Allied Powers to establish a safe and secure national home for the Jewish people, it was not difficult to conclude that the opening of hostilities was the preferred solution to the dispute. The UNPC had already detected Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, that were defying and attempting to subvert the recommendations contained in the UN Resolution of 29 November 1947; an obvious and deliberate effort to alter the peaceful outcome.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore

Is this too difficult for you to follow?

Prove what? There is nothing in my post which requires "proof". That there are two distinct groups in "Palestine"? Self-evident. The one of them has exercised their right to sovereignty? Self-evident. That there is nothing in law which prevents a State from forming two States based on the self-determination of two distinct cultural groups? One can't prove a negative. If you think you have some sort of proof to negate my claim -- present it.

Not true. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Of the 37 people who signed the declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. Where were the "Palestinian Jews?" These were all foreigners.

WRONG Israel was created by the Jews that were legal citizens of palestine under current international laws. They were all in Palestine the day the declaration was made.

The arab muslims were not cohesive and were split into 8 factions each wanting its own slice of the cake, and the Egyptians got there first and tried to steal Jewish lands by legal subterfuge.

Your smokescreen is dispersed as soon as you deploy it because the Zionists were legally accepted as being the spokesman for the Jews, the A.P.G. had refused to take part and so were not accepted as being legal.

the A.P.G. had refused to take part and so were not accepted as being legal.​

Refused to take part in what?

The formation of the APG and its declaration of independence was 100% legal.

The UN partition plan for starters. And it goes all the way back to 1917 when they refused as a body to be involved with any of the details of the mandate. So they lost everything they could have had

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

How many times have you been shown using UN archives that it was implemented, do you ignore everything that proves you to be a LIAR ?

Correct and in doing so the arab muslims lost any rights they had to claim the land

Give examples of them being denied the right to exercise free determination and independence.

Their actions trying to force the UN to hand them the reigns of a fully functioning nation once belonging to the Jews is illegal, as is their violence, acts of war, war crimes and terrorist attacks

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al

As tou say My "post is so incoherent I don't know where to start."

(QUESTION)

What country relinquished all ties and withdrew all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988?
What Arab activity of any description, maintained sovereign control over the West Bank on 1 Aug 1988?

Most Respectfully,
R

You are trying to smokescreen the issue.

The Palestinians have had the right to sovereignty since the Treaty of Lausanne. That they have had an occupation gun in their face since their inception preventing them from exercising that right does not negate that right.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think that you might want to reassess the Republic, the Statesman, the Laws.

(COMMENT)

There is no smoke screen. You can either answer the questions or you can't. The answers will point directly to the status of the West Bank at the time of the alleged theft from the Arab Palestinians.

What country relinquished all ties and withdrew all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988?
What Arab activity of any description, maintained sovereign control over the West Bank on 1 Aug 1988?
​

(COMMENT)

The Treaty of Lausanne really does not address any global right --- either of sovereignty or self-determination. As has been said several times, Article 16 places the title and rights of the territory in the hands of the Allied Powers. NOT in the hand of the indigenous population. This is further covered under Article 27:

ARTICLE 27.

No power or jurisdiction in political, legislative or administrative matters shall be exercised outside Turkish territory by the Turkish Government or authorities, for any reason whatsoever, over the nationals of a territory placed under the sovereignty or protectorate of the other Powers signatory of the present Treaty, or over the nationals of a territory detached from Turkey.

It is understood that the spiritual attributions of the Moslem religious authorities are in no way infringed.
​

Now, in the 14 Points under President Wilson's post-War Peace, it is important to remember that, Point #12, directly applicable to the Middle East, is limited in scope:

12. The Turkish portions of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.
​

It is important to understand that self-determination was not recognized as a "right" but as a "unmolested opportunity." Self-determination was simply not fully developed. In the post-conflict phase of the Israeli War of independence (mid-1949), self-determination was not addressed until 1988, by the Arab Palestinians.

Again, this is not a "smokescreen;" but, an acknowledgement of a lack of dedication and commitment to the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States.

Most Respectfully,
R

In the post-conflict phase of the Israeli War of independence (mid-1949), self-determination was not addressed until 1988, by the Arab Palestinians.​

More crapola from Rocco.

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

It is important to understand that self-determination was not recognized as a "right" but as a "unmolested opportunity."

Oh jeese.

They had 30 years to declare their self determination to a state, and it was only after the Egyptians with the arab League formed the All palestinian government and tried to claim land already designated by the Jews as their national home. Does this mean that the US can send a letter to the UN stating that as of 1st November 2016 the lands of mecca and medina will be American sovereign lands and it will be legal ?

Now why do you think the UN ignored this letter, and told Egypt to try again

Not true. Every Palestinian who made a move to self determination was arrested, exiled, or killed by the British.

The Palestinians only claimed land inside their own international borders. What part of Israel would be inside Palestine's international borders? That the Palestinians claimed land already designated by the Jews is just an Israeli lie. Show me a 1948 map of Israel or a document defining its borders and where the Palestinian declaration encroaches on that territory.

LIAR if that was true you would have posted the links. What you mean is every arab muslim illegal migrant that resorted to violence, acts of war and terrorism were arrested. The same happened to the Jews

What international borders as none existed and still dont, your one and only link actually states the borders are those of the mandate of palestine.

I have given you the 1922 definitive delination of the LoN grant for the Jewish national home, others have given you the partition plan map. Where is your map of the nation of palestine from 1917 then that you have been asked for and refuse to produce, or even 1948 or 1988 ?

Nice deflection. You did not refute anything in my post.

What deflection, until you provide the evidence all you are posting is LIES. You repeatedly ask for links and evidence and when you get them you ignore them and ask for them again. The map from 1922 is the one the Jews used to define the nation of Israel.
Why do you claim the arab's arrested for violent crimes and terrorism were indigenous to the area and were deported or executed illegally.
Where is the map of the arab muslim nation from 1948 or 1988, if such is so important to you.
Why do you claim everything that goes against your POV is an Israeli lie.


That is every topic in your post refuted by simple logic and reality

 

[Phoenall]

She's not Palestinian -- she's European.

Why do you say that?

She wasn't born in Palestine. She has never even visited.

Forced exile does not change your nationality.

Thank you. I'll remember you said that.

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history. That does not say that any Muslim or Christian from anywhere can "return" there because they share a religion.

As is their illegal migration between 1917 and the present day, so DNA tests to see where their country of origin is would be in order and any that are showing less than 4 generations to be returned.

That is the only criteria that the muslims are going on a shared religion.

 

[Phoenall]

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history.

The expulsion of the Jewish people is also recorded history.

Anyone who can trace their ancestry there has the right to return.

And the Jews have done so by taking DNA tests, and what law says there is a right of return. Produce it and you will see Mecca and Medina returned to Jewish ownership along with Jerusalem and the west bank

 

[Phoenall]

Who are the Palestinians?

Haya Ayoub

Trying to slime the Jews again with your islamonazi propaganda and LIES

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Haya Ayoub

Trying to slime the Jews again with your islamonazi propaganda and LIES

What slime and lies? She seemed like a level headed young woman.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but the expulsion of the Palestinians is recorded history.

The expulsion of the Jewish people is also recorded history.

Anyone who can trace their ancestry there has the right to return.

Trace their ancestry how?

The British, the UN, and others have records of Palestinian citizenship.

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

For the hundredth time, your understanding of this is wrong. But in every good piece of Hostile Arab Palestinian Propaganda, there are slight pieces of "truth." That is what makes it sound so good.

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

(COMMENT)

First, --- you are correct. A/RES/181(II) was a "Recommendation" and a "Non-binding" Resolution.

BUT!

• It was not implemented in the same sense by the Security Council because it was not a "Binding Resolution."
• The Implementation was overseen by the Security Council through the eyes of the United Nations Palestine Commission (UNPC); which reported to the Security Council.
• The UNPC did make it clear in its last sentence of Clause #5 PAL/169: "In fact the resolution of last November 29 was implemented."

View attachment 95705
UNPC PAL/169 17 MAY 1948​

• You are correct, the recommendation was in the form of an "Offer Extended by the UN and a voluntary Acceptance by either of the clients under the Mandate;" and which the Arab Palestinians declined (not unexpected - following their established pattern of belligerent uncooperativeness); and the Jewish Agency accepting the offer and recommendations.
• With the exception of the obstructiveness applied by the Arab League, and the initiation of hostilities as the aggressor --- crossing their internationally recognized frontiers, the Jewish Agency/Provisional Government attempted to comply with the Steps Preparatory to Independence as recommended in A/RES/181 (II) --- and as overseen by the UNPC and the International Community.
• Intervention by the Arab League use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the newly established State of Israel [(Declarative Form ••• Self-Determination)(as recommended by the UN Resolution)] prevented further development towards the objectives of A/RES/181(II).
• The combat outcome of the 1948 War opened by the unsanctioned intervention of Arab League Forces attempting to attain that which they were unsuccessful in achieving though peace means, was not favorable to the Arab League. While the Egyptians were successful in taking by force territory (Gaza Strip) formally under the Mandate for Palestine --- and --- the Jordanians were successful in taking by force the territory (West Bank) formally under the Mandate for Palestine, other areas were lost to Israel after the Israeli Defense Force pursued retreating Arab Forces.
​

Given the unproductive, unhelpful, recalcitrant attitude of the Arab Palestinians --- and the general unwillingness to achieve anything even close to the intentions of the Allied Powers to establish a safe and secure national home for the Jewish people, it was not difficult to conclude that the opening of hostilities was the preferred solution to the dispute. The UNPC had already detected Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, that were defying and attempting to subvert the recommendations contained in the UN Resolution of 29 November 1947; an obvious and deliberate effort to alter the peaceful outcome.

Most Respectfully,
R

The native Christians and Muslims of Palestine were unhelpful, recalcitrant and unwilling to help facilitate the takeover and repopulation of lands their ancestors had lived on for centuries by Europeans needing a National Home. Who would have thought!

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

For the hundredth time, your understanding of this is wrong. But in every good piece of Hostile Arab Palestinian Propaganda, there are slight pieces of "truth." That is what makes it sound so good.

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

(COMMENT)

First, --- you are correct. A/RES/181(II) was a "Recommendation" and a "Non-binding" Resolution.

BUT!

• It was not implemented in the same sense by the Security Council because it was not a "Binding Resolution."
• The Implementation was overseen by the Security Council through the eyes of the United Nations Palestine Commission (UNPC); which reported to the Security Council.
• The UNPC did make it clear in its last sentence of Clause #5 PAL/169: "In fact the resolution of last November 29 was implemented."

View attachment 95705
UNPC PAL/169 17 MAY 1948​

• You are correct, the recommendation was in the form of an "Offer Extended by the UN and a voluntary Acceptance by either of the clients under the Mandate;" and which the Arab Palestinians declined (not unexpected - following their established pattern of belligerent uncooperativeness); and the Jewish Agency accepting the offer and recommendations.
• With the exception of the obstructiveness applied by the Arab League, and the initiation of hostilities as the aggressor --- crossing their internationally recognized frontiers, the Jewish Agency/Provisional Government attempted to comply with the Steps Preparatory to Independence as recommended in A/RES/181 (II) --- and as overseen by the UNPC and the International Community.
• Intervention by the Arab League use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the newly established State of Israel [(Declarative Form ••• Self-Determination)(as recommended by the UN Resolution)] prevented further development towards the objectives of A/RES/181(II).
• The combat outcome of the 1948 War opened by the unsanctioned intervention of Arab League Forces attempting to attain that which they were unsuccessful in achieving though peace means, was not favorable to the Arab League. While the Egyptians were successful in taking by force territory (Gaza Strip) formally under the Mandate for Palestine --- and --- the Jordanians were successful in taking by force the territory (West Bank) formally under the Mandate for Palestine, other areas were lost to Israel after the Israeli Defense Force pursued retreating Arab Forces.
​

Given the unproductive, unhelpful, recalcitrant attitude of the Arab Palestinians --- and the general unwillingness to achieve anything even close to the intentions of the Allied Powers to establish a safe and secure national home for the Jewish people, it was not difficult to conclude that the opening of hostilities was the preferred solution to the dispute. The UNPC had already detected Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, that were defying and attempting to subvert the recommendations contained in the UN Resolution of 29 November 1947; an obvious and deliberate effort to alter the peaceful outcome.

Most Respectfully,
R

While the Egyptians were successful in taking by force territory (Gaza Strip) formally under the Mandate for Palestine --- and --- the Jordanians were successful in taking by force the territory (West Bank) formally under the Mandate for Palestine, other areas were lost to Israel after the Israeli Defense Force pursued retreating Arab Forces.​

Indeed, but Jordan and Egypt no longer occupy any Palestinian territory. Israel does.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are trying to smokescreen the issue.

The Palestinians have had the right to sovereignty since the Treaty of Lausanne. That they have had an occupation gun in their face since their inception preventing them from exercising that right does not negate that right.

In the post-conflict phase of the Israeli War of independence (mid-1949), self-determination was not addressed until 1988, by the Arab Palestinians.​

More crapola from Rocco.

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

It is important to understand that self-determination was not recognized as a "right" but as a "unmolested opportunity."

Oh jeese.

They had 30 years to declare their self determination to a state, and it was only after the Egyptians with the arab League formed the All palestinian government and tried to claim land already designated by the Jews as their national home. Does this mean that the US can send a letter to the UN stating that as of 1st November 2016 the lands of mecca and medina will be American sovereign lands and it will be legal ?

Now why do you think the UN ignored this letter, and told Egypt to try again

Not true. Every Palestinian who made a move to self determination was arrested, exiled, or killed by the British.

The Palestinians only claimed land inside their own international borders. What part of Israel would be inside Palestine's international borders? That the Palestinians claimed land already designated by the Jews is just an Israeli lie. Show me a 1948 map of Israel or a document defining its borders and where the Palestinian declaration encroaches on that territory.

LIAR if that was true you would have posted the links. What you mean is every arab muslim illegal migrant that resorted to violence, acts of war and terrorism were arrested. The same happened to the Jews

What international borders as none existed and still dont, your one and only link actually states the borders are those of the mandate of palestine.

I have given you the 1922 definitive delination of the LoN grant for the Jewish national home, others have given you the partition plan map. Where is your map of the nation of palestine from 1917 then that you have been asked for and refuse to produce, or even 1948 or 1988 ?

Nice deflection. You did not refute anything in my post.

What deflection, until you provide the evidence all you are posting is LIES. You repeatedly ask for links and evidence and when you get them you ignore them and ask for them again. The map from 1922 is the one the Jews used to define the nation of Israel.
Why do you claim the arab's arrested for violent crimes and terrorism were indigenous to the area and were deported or executed illegally.
Where is the map of the arab muslim nation from 1948 or 1988, if such is so important to you.
Why do you claim everything that goes against your POV is an Israeli lie.


That is every topic in your post refuted by simple logic and reality

You called me a liar.

Prove your point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

For the hundredth time, your understanding of this is wrong. But in every good piece of Hostile Arab Palestinian Propaganda, there are slight pieces of "truth." That is what makes it sound so good.

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

(COMMENT)

First, --- you are correct. A/RES/181(II) was a "Recommendation" and a "Non-binding" Resolution.

BUT!

• It was not implemented in the same sense by the Security Council because it was not a "Binding Resolution."
• The Implementation was overseen by the Security Council through the eyes of the United Nations Palestine Commission (UNPC); which reported to the Security Council.
• The UNPC did make it clear in its last sentence of Clause #5 PAL/169: "In fact the resolution of last November 29 was implemented."

View attachment 95705
UNPC PAL/169 17 MAY 1948​

• You are correct, the recommendation was in the form of an "Offer Extended by the UN and a voluntary Acceptance by either of the clients under the Mandate;" and which the Arab Palestinians declined (not unexpected - following their established pattern of belligerent uncooperativeness); and the Jewish Agency accepting the offer and recommendations.
• With the exception of the obstructiveness applied by the Arab League, and the initiation of hostilities as the aggressor --- crossing their internationally recognized frontiers, the Jewish Agency/Provisional Government attempted to comply with the Steps Preparatory to Independence as recommended in A/RES/181 (II) --- and as overseen by the UNPC and the International Community.
• Intervention by the Arab League use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the newly established State of Israel [(Declarative Form ••• Self-Determination)(as recommended by the UN Resolution)] prevented further development towards the objectives of A/RES/181(II).
• The combat outcome of the 1948 War opened by the unsanctioned intervention of Arab League Forces attempting to attain that which they were unsuccessful in achieving though peace means, was not favorable to the Arab League. While the Egyptians were successful in taking by force territory (Gaza Strip) formally under the Mandate for Palestine --- and --- the Jordanians were successful in taking by force the territory (West Bank) formally under the Mandate for Palestine, other areas were lost to Israel after the Israeli Defense Force pursued retreating Arab Forces.
​

Given the unproductive, unhelpful, recalcitrant attitude of the Arab Palestinians --- and the general unwillingness to achieve anything even close to the intentions of the Allied Powers to establish a safe and secure national home for the Jewish people, it was not difficult to conclude that the opening of hostilities was the preferred solution to the dispute. The UNPC had already detected Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, that were defying and attempting to subvert the recommendations contained in the UN Resolution of 29 November 1947; an obvious and deliberate effort to alter the peaceful outcome.

Most Respectfully,
R

• You are correct, the recommendation was in the form of an "Offer Extended by the UN and a voluntary Acceptance by either of the clients under the Mandate;" and which the Arab Palestinians declined...​

If both people accepted, there would have been a treaty. If both sides did not accept, there is nothing. There is no such thing as a one sided treaty. Some tried to push forward with parts of the resolution anyway but without authority.

You always step over the most important part. What was the core of this "offer?" It was to partition Palestine. The Palestinians were to agree to cede half of their country to the Zionist colonial project.

What other people would agree to that?

Give me some names.

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, et al,

For the hundredth time, your understanding of this is wrong. But in every good piece of Hostile Arab Palestinian Propaganda, there are slight pieces of "truth." That is what makes it sound so good.

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation that was not implemented by the Security Council. There was no legal requirement to comply.

All during the mandate period the Palestinians pushed for their right to self determination and independence. There is nothing illegal about that.

(COMMENT)

First, --- you are correct. A/RES/181(II) was a "Recommendation" and a "Non-binding" Resolution.

BUT!

• It was not implemented in the same sense by the Security Council because it was not a "Binding Resolution."
• The Implementation was overseen by the Security Council through the eyes of the United Nations Palestine Commission (UNPC); which reported to the Security Council.
• The UNPC did make it clear in its last sentence of Clause #5 PAL/169: "In fact the resolution of last November 29 was implemented."

View attachment 95705
UNPC PAL/169 17 MAY 1948​

• You are correct, the recommendation was in the form of an "Offer Extended by the UN and a voluntary Acceptance by either of the clients under the Mandate;" and which the Arab Palestinians declined (not unexpected - following their established pattern of belligerent uncooperativeness); and the Jewish Agency accepting the offer and recommendations.
• With the exception of the obstructiveness applied by the Arab League, and the initiation of hostilities as the aggressor --- crossing their internationally recognized frontiers, the Jewish Agency/Provisional Government attempted to comply with the Steps Preparatory to Independence as recommended in A/RES/181 (II) --- and as overseen by the UNPC and the International Community.
• Intervention by the Arab League use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the newly established State of Israel [(Declarative Form ••• Self-Determination)(as recommended by the UN Resolution)] prevented further development towards the objectives of A/RES/181(II).
• The combat outcome of the 1948 War opened by the unsanctioned intervention of Arab League Forces attempting to attain that which they were unsuccessful in achieving though peace means, was not favorable to the Arab League. While the Egyptians were successful in taking by force territory (Gaza Strip) formally under the Mandate for Palestine --- and --- the Jordanians were successful in taking by force the territory (West Bank) formally under the Mandate for Palestine, other areas were lost to Israel after the Israeli Defense Force pursued retreating Arab Forces.
​

Given the unproductive, unhelpful, recalcitrant attitude of the Arab Palestinians --- and the general unwillingness to achieve anything even close to the intentions of the Allied Powers to establish a safe and secure national home for the Jewish people, it was not difficult to conclude that the opening of hostilities was the preferred solution to the dispute. The UNPC had already detected Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, that were defying and attempting to subvert the recommendations contained in the UN Resolution of 29 November 1947; an obvious and deliberate effort to alter the peaceful outcome.

Most Respectfully,
R

The native Christians and Muslims of Palestine were unhelpful, recalcitrant and unwilling to help facilitate the takeover and repopulation of lands their ancestors had lived on for centuries by Europeans needing a National Home. Who would have thought!

The invading Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese Arab-Moslem squatters wanted to maintain their piece of Arab Ummah'istan.

Who would have doubted that?