Who are the Israelis?

[Coyote]

RE: Who are the Israelis
⁜→ rylah, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

I think it is great that a group of students would "promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government." But I don't think it is the right time yet. But it should be thought about as one of the possible actions for the future.

Youth for Sovereignty revolution continues
The youth set up stands in other places in Jerusalem, Sderot, Tel Aviv, Kfar Saba, Haifa, Bet Shemesh, Hadera, Natanya, and more, where they distributed publicity material, flyers, and stickers containing the essence of the sovereignty initiative's political philosophy, also calling on Knesset Members and Ministers who already pledged allegiance to the principle of sovereignty to move from the declarative stage to the action stage and promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government.

Read full article: Youth for Sovereignty revolution continues

Translation; No “ Right of Return “

(COMMENT)

Judea and Samaria!

◈ Eactly how large is that portion of the territories?

Or to be more thoughtful →​

◈ How much does that leave the Palestinians? ​

I think it is time for the Israelis to get-out-the map, draw the new lines. You will see immediately the conflict. And this is a conflict that the Israelis do not want.

◈ West Bank and Gaza Strip (the Occupiked Palestinian Territories) is ≈ 2401 sq mi.

◈ The is Judea and Samaria Area ≈ 2270 sq mi.​

Clearly, you see the problem here?

Just as the Hostile Arab Palestinians cannot ask for the unreasonable; so it is that the Israels cannot raise the unreason. So, we need to actually look at the magnitude of the suggested solution.

Most Respectfully,
R

When I looked up this movement it seems it has little room for the Arab residents of the region. One plan calls for creating 12 districts in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. Repeated frequently is the idea that sovereignty will erase the Palestinian identity and they will become "just Arabs". It seems to be a movement rooted in erasing the Palestinian identity, an irony coming from a group who themselves decry the erasure of identity.

That is simply not true.
One of key aspect in the Sovereignty movement is integration of the Arab population in Judea into the Israeli society which already includes 20% Arabs. In fact supporters of the movement preset several legal options for the Arab community in Judea to chose from. The most common options discussed are:
(1) compensation if one can't live with Jews, (2) resident status, and (3) citizenship.

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.

Now on the other hand what is this "Palestinian identity" if not a call for extinction of the only non-Arab nation in the entire region and denial of any independence to non-Muslims?
So yes it's definitely Israel's moral duty to say definite "No!" to another Arab demand for "no-Jews allowed" state that will jeopardize the future of both communities.

Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.

The irony here is that You support Israeli sovereignty over Judea, even opened a thread about the Emirate Solution as a viable option - but You will demonize the Israelis for expressing the same.

You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Innocent civilians!

Why, yes they are. Soldiers in Israel often carry their rifles around when they aren't on duty, during their military years, which they are allowed to do. My Israeli cousins did that. And these girls are beauties!

 

[Coyote]

When I looked up this movement it seems it has little room for the Arab residents of the region. One plan calls for creating 12 districts in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. Repeated frequently is the idea that sovereignty will erase the Palestinian identity and they will become "just Arabs". It seems to be a movement rooted in erasing the Palestinian identity, an irony coming from a group who themselves decry the erasure of identity.

On the contrary, the movement is extremely conscious of its Arab residents and citizens under a sovereign Israel. In particular, it believes it can bring not ounly full equality but a freedom from the kind of corruption, poverty and incitement which has become normative under PA and Hamas rule.

Its not the erasure of Arab Palestinian identity -- its the acknowledgement of the failure of Arab Palestinian Nationalism and inability to form a State. Arab Palestinian nationalism has been an undeniable failure. They are simply unable to create a nation. Israel trading pieces of her homeland in exchange for a neighboring Arab Palestinian Nation was an apparently reasonable offer which has turned out to be a failure.

Arab Palestinians can absolutely keep and maintain their identity while living as citizens in a sovereign Israel. Witness Quebec and Scotland, as examples.

I agree, it could possibly work, if it is implemented as you say, and as a two state solution becomes increasingly unlikely, I am a lot more open to some sort of single state.

That said, when I read what Rylah posted, I did google the movement, and along with a ton of requests to donate money, there were articles like this :

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Women in Green engaged architect Yoram Ginsburg and asked him to prepare a plan. He gathered experts in transportation, law, ecology and more, and began working on the TAMA (National Outline Plan). The plan includes partitioning the land into 12 districts, each one of which will have a governor. The partitioning will be done in such a way that there will not be an Arab majority in any district.​

Another concern that could affect a good outcome is the certainty expressed by leaders of the movement, that they have an absolute right to the entire area. This is not expressed as a shared right, which would imply some equity, but an absolute right based on God. God given rights in a world claimed by many Gods and their prophets is tricky to say the least when at least one group living there will not be the people of that regional God.

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.

They would be allowed to remain in The West Bank but would not have citizenship in Israel but rather Sinai. I can see a significant downside for the Palestinians with that, can you? Their existence in their homeland would not be tied to the security of citizenship but to the whim of a state that might not really want them there when population pressures push for expansion. They would, of course have no political rights.

That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts, in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. That would certainly dilute their political power, ability to gain resources or press for solutions of issues. When you consider that there is already an inequality of funding, infrastructure and allocation of resources between Arab communitees and Jewish communitees, this could insure that the Arabs will lack the political power to press for their rights. In the US we had a problem with racial minorities’ political power being deliberately diluted through clever redistricting schemes that insured they remained poor and inadequately represented. I don’t see this as different should it be divided in this manner.

The Sovereignty movement is heavily driven by the religious both in terms of rights to the land and governance of the people and their rights. How will that play out for the Palestinians? According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu says, there status would seem to be that of a guest...rather than citizen.

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better. (Page 15 of the document linked below.)

https://womeningreen.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/ribonut9english.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects. Apparently pointing that out, according to rylah is demonizing Israel.

 

[Shusha]

I agree, it could possibly work, if it is implemented as you say, and as a two state solution becomes increasingly unlikely, I am a lot more open to some sort of single state.

That said, when I read what Rylah posted, I did google the movement, and along with a ton of requests to donate money, there were articles like this :

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Women in Green engaged architect Yoram Ginsburg and asked him to prepare a plan. He gathered experts in transportation, law, ecology and more, and began working on the TAMA (National Outline Plan). The plan includes partitioning the land into 12 districts, each one of which will have a governor. The partitioning will be done in such a way that there will not be an Arab majority in any district.​

Another concern that could affect a good outcome is the certainty expressed by leaders of the movement, that they have an absolute right to the entire area. This is not expressed as a shared right, which would imply some equity, but an absolute right based on God. God given rights in a world claimed by many Gods and their prophets is tricky to say the least when at least one group living there will not be the people of that regional God.

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.

They would be allowed to remain in The West Bank but would not have citizenship in Israel but rather Sinai. I can see a significant downside for the Palestinians with that, can you? Their existence in their homeland would not be tied to the security of citizenship but to the whim of a state that might not really want them there when population pressures push for expansion. They would, of course have no political rights.

That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts, in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. That would certainly dilute their political power, ability to gain resources or press for solutions of issues. When you consider that there is already an inequality of funding, infrastructure and allocation of resources between Arab communitees and Jewish communitees, this could insure that the Arabs will lack the political power to press for their rights. In the US we had a problem with racial minorities’ political power being deliberately diluted through clever redistricting schemes that insured they remained poor and inadequately represented. I don’t see this as different should it be divided in this manner.

The Sovereignty movement is heavily driven by the religious both in terms of rights to the land and governance of the people and their rights. How will that play out for the Palestinians? According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu says, there status would seem to be that of a guest...rather than citizen.

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better. (Page 15 of the document linked below.)

https://womeningreen.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/ribonut9english.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects.

It appears to me that you are over-exaggerating the religious aspects. The article you linked says:

“This is a dangerous and stupefying illusion that is allowing a Palestinian state to become a reality right under our noses, with all of the dangers that it presents to the long-term future of the State of Israel,” said Katsover. “Israeli sovereignty over Judea and Samaria is an urgent necessity.” ...
In 2005, the organization shifted its direction to safeguarding Jewish land in Judea and Samaria, fighting what they describe as the Palestinian Authority’s continual, gradual creeping conquest of land in Judea and Samaria with the economic backing of Europe. “They started taking over hills in Judea and Samaria in area C,” said Matar. ...
The plan will help solve the land crisis in Israel, promote real peace and improve the lives of local Arab residents ...
“It is not just about history, ecology or religion,” said Katsover. “It is logic.” ... She said the Arab residents of Judea and Samaria understand that if they want a better economy, better infrastructure, if they want peace, then they will more-likely get that from living in a Jewish-run state.

...so it seems to me that while religious people are obviously going to have religious beliefs -- this is not the driving force behind this movement and not at all the driving force behind the practical application of sovereignty for Israel.

That said, the question on the table is how to preserve sovereign Israel as a State for the Jewish people, with all the cultural identity that this entails, given a large majority of Arabs with a completely different cultural identity? There is no precedent for this. (Largely because Israel is unique in the world for not expelling all of her Arab citizens and because Arab Palestine is unique in the world for claiming to want a national identity without ever creating a nation.)

The only solution I can see is for the Arab Palestinian citizens (or residents) of Israel have full human rights and equality, with special protections put in place to preserve her cultural identity, and with special avenues for ensuring they have a voice in their own affairs but with limited political powers.

Certainly Israel is far more capable of bringing about this in reality than any Arab group is. Israel has already proven how capable she is of equal treatment for her Arab citizens.

Possibly set up the Arab citizens of Israel as a seperate Province with limited Provinicial powers? Self-governed to some extent, while under the ultimate sovereignty of Israel. As Quebec is in Canada.

 

[rylah]

RE: Who are the Israelis
⁜→ rylah, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

I think it is great that a group of students would "promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government." But I don't think it is the right time yet. But it should be thought about as one of the possible actions for the future.

Youth for Sovereignty revolution continues
The youth set up stands in other places in Jerusalem, Sderot, Tel Aviv, Kfar Saba, Haifa, Bet Shemesh, Hadera, Natanya, and more, where they distributed publicity material, flyers, and stickers containing the essence of the sovereignty initiative's political philosophy, also calling on Knesset Members and Ministers who already pledged allegiance to the principle of sovereignty to move from the declarative stage to the action stage and promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government.

Read full article: Youth for Sovereignty revolution continues

Translation; No “ Right of Return “

(COMMENT)

Judea and Samaria!

◈ Eactly how large is that portion of the territories?

Or to be more thoughtful →​

◈ How much does that leave the Palestinians? ​

I think it is time for the Israelis to get-out-the map, draw the new lines. You will see immediately the conflict. And this is a conflict that the Israelis do not want.

◈ West Bank and Gaza Strip (the Occupiked Palestinian Territories) is ≈ 2401 sq mi.

◈ The is Judea and Samaria Area ≈ 2270 sq mi.​

Clearly, you see the problem here?

Just as the Hostile Arab Palestinians cannot ask for the unreasonable; so it is that the Israels cannot raise the unreason. So, we need to actually look at the magnitude of the suggested solution.

Most Respectfully,
R

When I looked up this movement it seems it has little room for the Arab residents of the region. One plan calls for creating 12 districts in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. Repeated frequently is the idea that sovereignty will erase the Palestinian identity and they will become "just Arabs". It seems to be a movement rooted in erasing the Palestinian identity, an irony coming from a group who themselves decry the erasure of identity.

That is simply not true.
One of key aspect in the Sovereignty movement is integration of the Arab population in Judea into the Israeli society which already includes 20% Arabs. In fact supporters of the movement preset several legal options for the Arab community in Judea to chose from. The most common options discussed are:
(1) compensation if one can't live with Jews, (2) resident status, and (3) citizenship.

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.

Now on the other hand what is this "Palestinian identity" if not a call for extinction of the only non-Arab nation in the entire region and denial of any independence to non-Muslims?
So yes it's definitely Israel's moral duty to say definite "No!" to another Arab demand for "no-Jews allowed" state that will jeopardize the future of both communities.

Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.

The irony here is that You support Israeli sovereignty over Judea, even opened a thread about the Emirate Solution as a viable option - but You will demonize the Israelis for expressing the same.

You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

 

[Coyote]

I agree, it could possibly work, if it is implemented as you say, and as a two state solution becomes increasingly unlikely, I am a lot more open to some sort of single state.

That said, when I read what Rylah posted, I did google the movement, and along with a ton of requests to donate money, there were articles like this :

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Women in Green engaged architect Yoram Ginsburg and asked him to prepare a plan. He gathered experts in transportation, law, ecology and more, and began working on the TAMA (National Outline Plan). The plan includes partitioning the land into 12 districts, each one of which will have a governor. The partitioning will be done in such a way that there will not be an Arab majority in any district.​

Another concern that could affect a good outcome is the certainty expressed by leaders of the movement, that they have an absolute right to the entire area. This is not expressed as a shared right, which would imply some equity, but an absolute right based on God. God given rights in a world claimed by many Gods and their prophets is tricky to say the least when at least one group living there will not be the people of that regional God.

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.

They would be allowed to remain in The West Bank but would not have citizenship in Israel but rather Sinai. I can see a significant downside for the Palestinians with that, can you? Their existence in their homeland would not be tied to the security of citizenship but to the whim of a state that might not really want them there when population pressures push for expansion. They would, of course have no political rights.

That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts, in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. That would certainly dilute their political power, ability to gain resources or press for solutions of issues. When you consider that there is already an inequality of funding, infrastructure and allocation of resources between Arab communitees and Jewish communitees, this could insure that the Arabs will lack the political power to press for their rights. In the US we had a problem with racial minorities’ political power being deliberately diluted through clever redistricting schemes that insured they remained poor and inadequately represented. I don’t see this as different should it be divided in this manner.

The Sovereignty movement is heavily driven by the religious both in terms of rights to the land and governance of the people and their rights. How will that play out for the Palestinians? According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu says, there status would seem to be that of a guest...rather than citizen.

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better. (Page 15 of the document linked below.)

https://womeningreen.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/ribonut9english.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects.

It appears to me that you are over-exaggerating the religious aspects. The article you linked says:

“This is a dangerous and stupefying illusion that is allowing a Palestinian state to become a reality right under our noses, with all of the dangers that it presents to the long-term future of the State of Israel,” said Katsover. “Israeli sovereignty over Judea and Samaria is an urgent necessity.” ...
In 2005, the organization shifted its direction to safeguarding Jewish land in Judea and Samaria, fighting what they describe as the Palestinian Authority’s continual, gradual creeping conquest of land in Judea and Samaria with the economic backing of Europe. “They started taking over hills in Judea and Samaria in area C,” said Matar. ...
The plan will help solve the land crisis in Israel, promote real peace and improve the lives of local Arab residents ...
“It is not just about history, ecology or religion,” said Katsover. “It is logic.” ... She said the Arab residents of Judea and Samaria understand that if they want a better economy, better infrastructure, if they want peace, then they will more-likely get that from living in a Jewish-run state.

...so it seems to me that while religious people are obviously going to have religious beliefs -- this is not the driving force behind this movement and not at all the driving force behind the practical application of sovereignty for Israel.

Two things are equally emphasized by most of those quoted. Security. And a divine right to the land. Given that, why do you insist that I am overemphasizing the role of religion when it is right there in the movements words and positions.

That said, the question on the table is how to preserve sovereign Israel as a State for the Jewish people, with all the cultural identity that this entails, given a large majority of Arabs with a completely different cultural identity? There is no precedent for this. (Largely because Israel is unique in the world for not expelling all of her Arab citizens and because Arab Palestine is unique in the world for claiming to want a national identity without ever creating a nation.)

There are two questions and you are ignoring one of them. How to preserve a Palestinian identity in a wake of a more powerful state that views them as “just Arabs”.

Israel is not unique for not expelling all it’s Arabs and the Jews had a national identity before they had a nation. There are other multicultural states, you pointed out Canada and Quebec for example.

The only solution I can see is for the Arab Palestinian citizens (or residents) of Israel have full human rights and equality, with special protections put in place to preserve her cultural identity, and with special avenues for ensuring they have a voice in their own affairs but with limited political powers.

How would you grant limited political powers and still call yourself a democracy?

Limited political powers usually leads to inequities in resources, financing and even rights. How would that be addressed or would it even matter?

Certainly Israel is far more capable of bringing about this in reality than any Arab group is. Israel has already proven how capable she is of equal treatment for her Arab citizens.

Possibly. And I say that because there is a significant rightwing nationalistic push that is increasingly anti secular and increasingly anti Arab and that seems to be reflected in some of this sovereignty movement members.

Possibly set up the Arab citizens of Israel as a seperate Province with limited Provinicial powers? Self-governed to some extent, while under the ultimate sovereignty of Israel. As Quebec is in Canada.

A federation? I think something like that is possible and maybe probable.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Who are the Israelis
⁜→ rylah, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

I think it is great that a group of students would "promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government." But I don't think it is the right time yet. But it should be thought about as one of the possible actions for the future.

Youth for Sovereignty revolution continues
The youth set up stands in other places in Jerusalem, Sderot, Tel Aviv, Kfar Saba, Haifa, Bet Shemesh, Hadera, Natanya, and more, where they distributed publicity material, flyers, and stickers containing the essence of the sovereignty initiative's political philosophy, also calling on Knesset Members and Ministers who already pledged allegiance to the principle of sovereignty to move from the declarative stage to the action stage and promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government.

Read full article: Youth for Sovereignty revolution continues

Translation; No “ Right of Return “

(COMMENT)

Judea and Samaria!

◈ Eactly how large is that portion of the territories?

Or to be more thoughtful →​

◈ How much does that leave the Palestinians? ​

I think it is time for the Israelis to get-out-the map, draw the new lines. You will see immediately the conflict. And this is a conflict that the Israelis do not want.

◈ West Bank and Gaza Strip (the Occupiked Palestinian Territories) is ≈ 2401 sq mi.

◈ The is Judea and Samaria Area ≈ 2270 sq mi.​

Clearly, you see the problem here?

Just as the Hostile Arab Palestinians cannot ask for the unreasonable; so it is that the Israels cannot raise the unreason. So, we need to actually look at the magnitude of the suggested solution.

Most Respectfully,
R

When I looked up this movement it seems it has little room for the Arab residents of the region. One plan calls for creating 12 districts in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. Repeated frequently is the idea that sovereignty will erase the Palestinian identity and they will become "just Arabs". It seems to be a movement rooted in erasing the Palestinian identity, an irony coming from a group who themselves decry the erasure of identity.

That is simply not true.
One of key aspect in the Sovereignty movement is integration of the Arab population in Judea into the Israeli society which already includes 20% Arabs. In fact supporters of the movement preset several legal options for the Arab community in Judea to chose from. The most common options discussed are:
(1) compensation if one can't live with Jews, (2) resident status, and (3) citizenship.

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.

Now on the other hand what is this "Palestinian identity" if not a call for extinction of the only non-Arab nation in the entire region and denial of any independence to non-Muslims?
So yes it's definitely Israel's moral duty to say definite "No!" to another Arab demand for "no-Jews allowed" state that will jeopardize the future of both communities.

Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.

The irony here is that You support Israeli sovereignty over Judea, even opened a thread about the Emirate Solution as a viable option - but You will demonize the Israelis for expressing the same.

You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

 

[rylah]

RE: Who are the Israelis
⁜→ rylah, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

I think it is great that a group of students would "promote sovereignty legislation in the Knesset and in the government." But I don't think it is the right time yet. But it should be thought about as one of the possible actions for the future.

(COMMENT)

Judea and Samaria!

◈ Eactly how large is that portion of the territories?

Or to be more thoughtful →​

◈ How much does that leave the Palestinians? ​

I think it is time for the Israelis to get-out-the map, draw the new lines. You will see immediately the conflict. And this is a conflict that the Israelis do not want.

◈ West Bank and Gaza Strip (the Occupiked Palestinian Territories) is ≈ 2401 sq mi.

◈ The is Judea and Samaria Area ≈ 2270 sq mi.​

Clearly, you see the problem here?

Just as the Hostile Arab Palestinians cannot ask for the unreasonable; so it is that the Israels cannot raise the unreason. So, we need to actually look at the magnitude of the suggested solution.

Most Respectfully,
R

When I looked up this movement it seems it has little room for the Arab residents of the region. One plan calls for creating 12 districts in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. Repeated frequently is the idea that sovereignty will erase the Palestinian identity and they will become "just Arabs". It seems to be a movement rooted in erasing the Palestinian identity, an irony coming from a group who themselves decry the erasure of identity.

That is simply not true.
One of key aspect in the Sovereignty movement is integration of the Arab population in Judea into the Israeli society which already includes 20% Arabs. In fact supporters of the movement preset several legal options for the Arab community in Judea to chose from. The most common options discussed are:
(1) compensation if one can't live with Jews, (2) resident status, and (3) citizenship.

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.

Now on the other hand what is this "Palestinian identity" if not a call for extinction of the only non-Arab nation in the entire region and denial of any independence to non-Muslims?
So yes it's definitely Israel's moral duty to say definite "No!" to another Arab demand for "no-Jews allowed" state that will jeopardize the future of both communities.

Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.

The irony here is that You support Israeli sovereignty over Judea, even opened a thread about the Emirate Solution as a viable option - but You will demonize the Israelis for expressing the same.

You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Innocent civilians!

Why, yes they are. Soldiers in Israel often carry their rifles around when they aren't on duty, during their military years, which they are allowed to do. My Israeli cousins did that. And these girls are beauties!

I thought you would like that.

 

[Coyote]

Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

 

[Coyote]

When I looked up this movement it seems it has little room for the Arab residents of the region. One plan calls for creating 12 districts in such a way that none will have an Arab majority. Repeated frequently is the idea that sovereignty will erase the Palestinian identity and they will become "just Arabs". It seems to be a movement rooted in erasing the Palestinian identity, an irony coming from a group who themselves decry the erasure of identity.

That is simply not true.
One of key aspect in the Sovereignty movement is integration of the Arab population in Judea into the Israeli society which already includes 20% Arabs. In fact supporters of the movement preset several legal options for the Arab community in Judea to chose from. The most common options discussed are:
(1) compensation if one can't live with Jews, (2) resident status, and (3) citizenship.

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.

Now on the other hand what is this "Palestinian identity" if not a call for extinction of the only non-Arab nation in the entire region and denial of any independence to non-Muslims?
So yes it's definitely Israel's moral duty to say definite "No!" to another Arab demand for "no-Jews allowed" state that will jeopardize the future of both communities.

Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.

The irony here is that You support Israeli sovereignty over Judea, even opened a thread about the Emirate Solution as a viable option - but You will demonize the Israelis for expressing the same.

You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

 

[rylah]

Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

 

[Coyote]

Here is one view of sovereignty, from the left. Do you agree? Disagree? Agree with some of it...disagree with other points?

How Israeli right-wing thinkers envision the annexation of the West Bank

How Israeli Right-wing Thinkers Envision the Annexation of the West Bank
From granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Jordan to expelling them creatively – how rightists propose to apply Israeli sovereignty in the Palestinian Territories

....
Katzover and Matar aren’t alone. The “sovereignty dialogue” is gaining pace in Israel, so now is the time to examine what the proponents of sovereignty mean when they talk about it. Katzover and Matar told me who they think the major players are, so I set out to discover what they’re anguishing over and which issues bother them – legally, economically and morally – and what they argue about among themselves.


Naftali Bennett: ‘Autonomy on steroids’

And then there’s a “Marshall Plan” for Judea and Samaria. If I were prime minister, I’d do it immediately.

“1. Freedom of movement between Binyamin and Gush Etzion – between Ramallah and Bethlehem. I begin by building that road.

“2. I triple the number of lanes for security checks, so that an Arab who lives in Nablus and works in Rosh Ha’ayin won’t wait three hours at the checkpoints, but five minutes. There will be dignity and respect for every person at the checkpoints.

“3. An open tourist region. In terms of tourism, the Land of Israel is one unit, so a ship will dock at Haifa and from there the tourists will travel to Nazareth, Nablus, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and a stamp of transit for an integrated tourist region can be organized for them to get the ball rolling.

“4. A land port in Jenin. A dock, or more than one, can be allocated to the Palestinians in Haifa. Apart from the security responsibility, the customs responsibility will be theirs. We won’t levy anything, there will be a passage from Haifa to Jenin, and the offloading will take place in Jenin.

“5. I establish joint industrial zones for Arabs and Jews, as exist now, but 10 times as many in Judea and Samaria. The Palestinian people – all told – are of a high level. Israel faces serious personnel problems in countless areas, from agriculture and construction to high-tech, and we can create a very good opportunity. Palestinians working in Israeli businesses is a very significant layer of the realistic Palestinian economy.

“6. Upgrading of infrastructure in Judea and Samaria. It’s unbelievable that the chief road artery in Judea and Samaria looks like a neglected alley. How does it serve the Israeli interest if settlers or Palestinians wait in line for an hour to enter at Hizma [near Jerusalem]? It’s intolerable for everyone.

“7. We’re proud of our agricultural technology. We talk about the Israeli [dairy] cow, which yields three or four times as much [as their peers globally], and we go to India or China to apply it. Why not in the Palestinian Authority, our neighbors?

“Those steps give a real spurt to the quality of life in Judea and Samaria – a life of dignity, [though] not full realization of the desire for a state. It’s less than a state, but it seems to me to be as good as it gets.

“I don’t rule out functional autonomy within Jordan. If Jordan decides on it and the Palestinians want to be citizens of Jordan who live in the Palestinian Authority or in Area C, that’s also possible. If they want to live in Moti Kedar’s cantons [see below], that’s also possible. They will decide. But in the end, there is one status in the territories of Israel, namely the citizens of Israel.There won’t be one territory with two statuses. Accordingly, there is no apartheid here.”


Martin Sherman: The transfer method

Martin Sherman, the founder and CEO of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies, is probably the most extreme of all the annexationists. He advocates applying Israeli sovereignty to the whole West Bank and is also the only one who wants to annex the Gaza Strip as well. He says there is no other way to ensure Israel’s security militarily.

“Bennett’s plan sounds logical, until you look at the map, and then you see corridors everywhere, so sovereignty is meaningless,” he says. “Even if there is only a 30 percent Palestinian minority, it’s still a recipe for Lebanonization. They’re a very hostile group.”

According to Sherman, Israel needs to act vigorously to reduce the Arab presence. How? War is the most effective way, Sherman says (because "'kinetic means' are more acceptable," as he told the Ribonut correspondent). But if there’s no war - and Sherman claims he's not calling to start one - “a series of incentives is needed so they’ll leave. Positive incentives – money for families that leave and negative ones: to declare them an enemy and start to gradually reduce the provision of services and goods to the Palestinians” in both the West Bank and Gaza.

In Sherman’s view, Israel has no moral, legal or practical obligation to maintain the socioeconomic life of an enemy that’s committed to its extinction. On the contrary, its moral obligation is to bring about its collapse in order to prevent attempts to liquidate Israel and kill its citizens. Together with declaring the Palestinians a collective enemy, Israel should revoke its recognition of the PA and work to dismantle it.

“Anyone who wants to leave should take an emigration package and look for somewhere else to live,” Sherman says. “Let them go to Indonesia, or India, for example. Transfer isn’t a dirty word.”


Mordechai Kedar: The emirates method

To understand the emirates plan of Middle East affairs expert Mordechai Kedar (of Bar-Ilan University and the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies), you must hear his take on the entire region. “In the Middle East, the strongest group is the family, and then the extended family, the clan, the tribe. Most of the modern states in the Middle East – Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco – were created by colonialists, and the state was forced on the groups that lived in its territory,” he says.

“The idea of the modern state wasn’t welcomed by the majority of citizens, and it didn’t supplant traditional loyalties. So there’s no ‘Syrian people,’ no ‘Iraqi people’ and no ‘Libyan people.’

“The Palestinian story is much the same. We tried to build a people on the basis of the idea of a Palestinian state, to remove the primary reference group and create a national consciousness that wouldn’t be challenged by competing forms of consciousness: the tribe, the ethnic, religious or communal group. That attempt isn’t working. Accordingly, we need to act according to the successful model of the Gulf emirates, which are based on local families.”

Here, then, are the stages of Kedar’s plan, in his words:

“1. Recognizing the Gaza Strip as a state, because it possesses all of a state’s attributes. Hamas has ruled in Gaza for 11 years, and its government takes the right attitude toward the local families.

“2. Application of Israeli sovereignty to all of Judea and Samaria.

“3. Dismantlement of the Palestinian Authority.

“4. Establishment of seven emirates – city-states – in the West Bank: in Arab Hebron and in Jericho, Ramallah, Qalqilyah, Tul Karm, Nablus and Jenin. They would be independent emirates based on the local families. The emirates’ inhabitants will be their citizens – citizens of the Emirate of Hebron, citizens of the Emirate of Nablus and so on.

“5. The rural areas will remain under Israeli sovereignty.

“6. Israel should offer Israeli citizenship to the residents of the rural villages, who make up about 10 percent of the Arab population in the West Bank and don’t pose a demographic threat. They will live in Israel like the Arabs of the Galilee and the Little Triangle Area in central Israel, which is roughly bounded by the Arab towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, Taibeh and Tira.

Knew this one would come, read it before our conversation just to see how we will be attacked.
So predictable.

What is wrong with it? Some interesting ideas. I actually agree with some. I don’t understand you. Any criticism and you yell about demonizing Israel yet you demonize the Palestinians non stop. I quote from some of the actual people behind the sovereignty movement and you seem to think that is unfair. You deny the Palestinians their identity as if it can only be had at the expense of a Jewish identity. Well bullshit on all of that.

 

[rylah]

That is simply not true.
One of key aspect in the Sovereignty movement is integration of the Arab population in Judea into the Israeli society which already includes 20% Arabs. In fact supporters of the movement preset several legal options for the Arab community in Judea to chose from. The most common options discussed are:
(1) compensation if one can't live with Jews, (2) resident status, and (3) citizenship.

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.

Now on the other hand what is this "Palestinian identity" if not a call for extinction of the only non-Arab nation in the entire region and denial of any independence to non-Muslims?
So yes it's definitely Israel's moral duty to say definite "No!" to another Arab demand for "no-Jews allowed" state that will jeopardize the future of both communities.

Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.

The irony here is that You support Israeli sovereignty over Judea, even opened a thread about the Emirate Solution as a viable option - but You will demonize the Israelis for expressing the same.

You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

 

[Coyote]

Are we talking about the same thing?

I googled youth sovereignty movement. I came up with a lot requests for donations, and things like this:

From survival to destiny Sovereignty Movement founded by Women in Green motivates new generation to action – Women In Green

Which does in fact talk diluting Arab political influence and erasing Palestinian identity.


Palestinians are now a people and It isn’t up to you to decide whether or not they are. Whether their identity was formed in a violent struggle or grew organically or both doesn’t matter and the constant effort to erase it is as revolting as that towards Jews.



You are wrong. As usual. I am not demonizing Israel. I am questioning your youth movement and what appears to be a plan to erase and dilute the Palestinians.

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

I didn’t imply anything. I said exactly what I meant. The Arabs did not “steal” your identity. The Palestinians created their own.

 

[rylah]

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.


That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts

According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects. Apparently pointing that out, according to rylah is demonizing Israel.

Finally SPECIFICS. Let's go into real practical discussion.

The Sinai idea is a good start, for a good opening joke.
That's a logical fallacy, the whole point is we apply Israeli sovereignty over Judea, not going beyond our borders to create another Arab state. You just don't get the humor behind.

The 12 districts is an idea that has no support because it again misses the whole point and practicality.
I think I've already made it clear and simple - people are fed up with drawing lines in Israel.
Removing the security barrier is also one of the main issues on the table, so no that's again a logical inconsistency.

Rabbi Elyahu father or son? If You want to go into the definitions of Jewish law, I WILL demand the original source and I WILL be specific about each word and its legal standing.

According to MK Tzur, resident can mean either a translation of a term in Jewish law in conversation with the orthodox community, or as it applies in common law? Because one means from a Jewish legal point that the Rabbinate won't be forced to view non-Jews as Jews and apply their rulings on them or deal with any of their issues in the Rabbinic courts. The other means that for a subject of the PA to receive Israeli citizenship once sovereignty is applied, will have to go through a process of application starting from a resident status.
This also means that subjects of other states who happen to live with the Arab community in Judea might as well choose to keep it.

Yehuda Glick didn't pass the vote, so was the reception of that crazy idea. Though I find it funny how You oppose the 12 districts idea while support the canton idea of Mr. Glick.
Oh wait a sec. I just arrived at simple conclusion - You actually support a canton idea, and indirectly the 12 regions idea, because they're the same, only difference is the number of divisions.

How many more times do I have to say it - the young generation is fed up with drawing new lines in Israel.

 

[Coyote]

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.


That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts

According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects. Apparently pointing that out, according to rylah is demonizing Israel.

Finally SPECIFICS. Let's go into real practical discussion.

The Sinai idea is a good start, for a good opening joke.
That's a logical fallacy, the whole point is we apply Israeli sovereignty over Judea, not going beyond our borders to create another Arab state. You just don't get the humor behind.

The 12 districts is an idea that has no support because it again misses the whole point and practicality.
I think I've already made it clear and simple - people are fed up with drawing lines in Israel.
Removing the security barrier is also one of the main issues on the table, so no that's again a logical inconsistency.

Rabbi Elyahu father or son? If You want to go into the definitions of Jewish law, I WILL demand the original source and I WILL be specific about each word and its legal standing.

According to MK Tzur, resident can mean either a translation of a term in Jewish law in conversation with the orthodox community, or as it applies in common law? Because one means from a Jewish legal point that the Rabbinate won't be forced to view non-Jews as Jews and apply their rulings on them or deal with any of their issues in the Rabbinic courts. The other means that for a subject of the PA to receive Israeli citizenship once sovereignty is applied, will have to go through a process of application starting from a resident status.
This also means that subjects of other states who happen to live with the Arab community in Judea might as well choose to keep it.

Yehuda Glick didn't pass the vote, so was the reception of that crazy idea. Though I find it funny how You oppose the 12 districts idea while support the canton idea of Mr. Glick.
How many times do I have to say it more - the young generation is fed up with drawing new lines in Israel.

Oh wait a sec. I just arrived at simple conclusion - You actually support a canton idea, and indirectly the 12 regions idea, because they're the same, only difference is the number of divisions.

Eliyahu was the Eliyahu quoted in the linked I drew my comments from.

In terms of twelve districts vs the cantons...you fail to see the difference in how they would be apportioned? You pretend it is the same it except for number of areas, is it?

 

[rylah]

What political influence Arabs have under PA or Hamas?
In Israel they get elected to the parliament and put presidents and PM's in jail.

Erasing the Palestinian identity, what is that? It's was our identity before Arabs stole it, the whole modern concept was defined as a function of Jewish identity. It belongs to me, it was stolen from me, and in the most cynical way used by my enemies who don't even know the meaning of the word as a slogan of my demise.
I'm the only one who demands it is not erased in its most true sense. Let's call it by its name - a political version of replacement theology. Be it Arab Palestinianism, or Christian messianism, or even Muslim submission - all are my original terms that were openly taken from me and twisted to their 180 degree opposite, and to add injury to insult used as an excuse to call for my physical and spiritual demise.

Let me sum it up very shortly - all of those terms above are mine, and when I use them all of them mean inclusion of You . Yet each time it is used by You (specifically and figuratively) it somehow always ends up being used to accuse and exclude me. So yes, using Your terminology, I "erase" the version that excludes me by carefully keeping the one that includes You, because only one of those comes from truth we both can agree upon.

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

I didn’t imply anything. I said exactly what I meant. The Arabs did not “steal” your identity. The Palestinians created their own.

Go ask an Arab and a Jew to pronounce the first letter of the word, or its meaning in the local language,
then tell me who stole what from whom.

 

[Coyote]

To sum it up, I erase no one. I am pointing out what the movement itself actually says. Their words. Do you you think you are the only people who are allowed an identity?

You're implying too much without fully understanding what's being said.
Identity is not a thing one can allow or not, one can steal one though,
like using my ID to buy a gun for my murder.

That's exactly the effect of Your use of the term "Palestinian identity".

No. It is you who are trying to steal it, by erasing it. By implying it can not coexist with a Jewish identity. Two people’s belonging to one land, but you need to deny the existence of one, claiming it to be stolen? Deny them their right to their identity? That is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm saying it comes from Jewish identity, not that it cannot coexist.
It does just that in the Jewish version of Palestine, and the opposite in the Arab one...which is again by their own words is a "Zionist invention".

Quiet different from what You implied, don't You think?

I didn’t imply anything. I said exactly what I meant. The Arabs did not “steal” your identity. The Palestinians created their own.

Go ask an Arab and a Jew to pronounce the first letter of the word, or its meaning in the local language,
then tell me who stole what from whom.

No one “stole” from anyone and your insistence on using the term is nothing more than an attempt to degrade.

 

[rylah]

They also talk about the idea that if there must be a Palestinian state, put it in the Sinai, a region that is not particularly hospitable, for a start: Sinai Peninsula - New World Encyclopedia.


That is only IF there must be a state.

They call for dividing the West Bank into 12 districts

According to my understanding of what Rabbi Eliyahu

According to MK Ben-Tzur, the Palestinian will a resident, not a citizen.

On the other hand, MK Yehuda Gluck proposes sovereignty in the form of a federation, which sounds potentially better.

I think sovereignty is a possible solution to a complex problem but it’s success depends very much on how it is applied, and this movement specifically has some questionable aspects. Apparently pointing that out, according to rylah is demonizing Israel.

Finally SPECIFICS. Let's go into real practical discussion.

The Sinai idea is a good start, for a good opening joke.
That's a logical fallacy, the whole point is we apply Israeli sovereignty over Judea, not going beyond our borders to create another Arab state. You just don't get the humor behind.

The 12 districts is an idea that has no support because it again misses the whole point and practicality.
I think I've already made it clear and simple - people are fed up with drawing lines in Israel.
Removing the security barrier is also one of the main issues on the table, so no that's again a logical inconsistency.

Rabbi Elyahu father or son? If You want to go into the definitions of Jewish law, I WILL demand the original source and I WILL be specific about each word and its legal standing.

According to MK Tzur, resident can mean either a translation of a term in Jewish law in conversation with the orthodox community, or as it applies in common law? Because one means from a Jewish legal point that the Rabbinate won't be forced to view non-Jews as Jews and apply their rulings on them or deal with any of their issues in the Rabbinic courts. The other means that for a subject of the PA to receive Israeli citizenship once sovereignty is applied, will have to go through a process of application starting from a resident status.
This also means that subjects of other states who happen to live with the Arab community in Judea might as well choose to keep it.

Yehuda Glick didn't pass the vote, so was the reception of that crazy idea. Though I find it funny how You oppose the 12 districts idea while support the canton idea of Mr. Glick.
How many times do I have to say it more - the young generation is fed up with drawing new lines in Israel.

Oh wait a sec. I just arrived at simple conclusion - You actually support a canton idea, and indirectly the 12 regions idea, because they're the same, only difference is the number of divisions.

Eliyahu was the Eliyahu quoted in the linked I drew my comments from.

In terms of twelve districts vs the cantons...you fail to see the difference in how they would be apportioned? You pretend it is the same it except for number of areas, is it?

First of all they are Rabbis, one of them was a sage of the generation, so please some respect could be healthy. You have no dog in this fight, so respect the boundaries if You want to have any further discussion, criticize all You want but in Israel we refer to religious leaders and kings, no matter how hostile, by their title before the name. So did (Rishon LeTzion) Rabbi Mordechai Elyahu ZTZV"KL when he addressed Iran leader Ayatollah Khamenei in a direct official letter from Israel.
I looked several times, You must be looking at a different source.

And yes I see both cantons and regions as essentially the same ideas,it's a small place, 2 geographical regions Judea Samaria. As I said earlier, all goes back to Dr. Kedar's Emirates solution. But I don't want those divisions, I want the recognized Sheikhs of the main tribes to establish their representative in a unified body with the Rabbinate, I want constant open channel under Israeli protection with the Muftis as well, I want people like Rabbi Elyahu ZTZV"KL to sit with recognized chief Muslim leaders and to find that thing, we all looking for but afraid to utter the word without ridicule, as an example for everyone else . But how can I discuss such issues with people who have very shallow understanding of theology and modern interreligious discourse and its effect on cu culture?

Some go so far in denial as to declare the conflict has nothing to do with religion at all.
But one thing for sure there is a lot of Jewish-Christian open debates going on a regular basis everywhere freedom of expression and intellectual rigor are appreciated. In Israel Rabbis invite Pastors to debates and vise versa, I have the freedom and real comfort to discuss religion with anyone "on the street" in Israel, You know to real human extent, go to people who don't have a bad look in the eye seeing my kippa and beard. Jewish culture is all about open debate, but I don't see any Jewish-Muslim open debates, Muslims willingly debate Christians but not Jews, not in any open representative manner, very rarely on the streets of Europe, and usually on a very shallow level.

I'm just saying, there're a lot of potential agreements in many hot topics that only seem as explosive. There's no other like Israel where this debate is more relevant and worthy of taking place.