Whites' Rights Violated. No, Really.

[mattskramer]

I don't think blacks needed help then amymore than they do now.

Okay. We agree to disagree. I think that the Blacks needed a lot of help then but not as much help now. Think of a time several decades ago. Think of the son of a slave who was recently freed. Do you think that he had the same opportunity as the son of his father’s owner at jobs and opportunities? Think of the different friends and networks that each had. “Poof - you and your children are free. Go find a job and be self-reliant old Black man.” versus “Well, son. Here are a few thousand dollars. You can stay in our guest room of this mansion. We hired this expert for this trade that you wanted to learn. If you run into difficulty, talk to me and we can work something out”.

No. There was a big difference between these two classes of people (the haves (whites) and the have-nots (recent ex-slaves)). The differences followed them and their children for several years. It became less and less of a difference as time progressed but there was still a difference brought on by generations of unequal treatment.

And what about the poor whites, or any other ethnicity for that matter?

These were not American slaves – forced to do hard physical labor in order to barely survive at the hands of a slave-owner. Even from generations ago, they were allowed to improve themselves, learn, and grow – simply provided that they had the resources of friends, family, and money. They had no owner preventing them from doing what they wanted to do or from learning what they wanted to learn.

This isn't about skin color. That's a ruse the elite would like you to believe in an effort to cover up the true discrimination is against class, not color.

I disagree. White people and non-Black minorities were allowed to rise above their “class”. Back then, there was no slave-owners directly preventing the non-Blacks from advancing. Today, there is very little, if any, class discrimination. You can’t say the same for the Black man. Until a couple of generations have passed, it was nearly impossible to rise above your status if you were a Black person. This was due to generational slavery and forced ignorance. Blacks were not allowed to learn and grow – unless it was the desire of the slave-owner to let him do so.

Anyway, those days have come and gone. Now Blacks, thanks to affirmative action-like policies, are on the same playing field as are Whites, and minorities.

 

[mattskramer]

I think your right, but wrong.

Any discrimination is wrong. I would help the poor and minorities this way. Take some money away from rich schools, and well performing schools, and give them to the poor and under-performing schools, and give parents of poor kids/under-performing schools, vouchers, so they have a choice, so their kids, can escape the under-performing schools.

Look at what magic johnson is doing. The government can consider ways to work with private sector to re-build economically disadvantaged neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods, but we cant say, oh youre black or a minority, you poor thing, youre a victim, you need our help, because it sends a message to them : youre an idiot, you cant do it yourself, and you will be a slave to the government.

agree my friend mattskramer, disagree. Lets continue this dialogue.

I see your point and I’m inclined to agree with you. My key point was that race and class discrimination (if there was any class discrimination) is a thing of the past. We no longer need race or class affirmative action. There are geographic sectors today that may be in such a slump that they need government help (or not). That is a difference that may need some consideration.

 

[mattskramer]

Exactly, some wrongs cannot be righted, just moved on from. Like reparations. Some blacks were free and prospered, especially in the West. Should their descendants have to pay others that were not free?

What about slaves, bonafide descendents of slaves? Some were treated well, even taught to read and families kept in tact. Should they receive less than those treated badly? More than those who were given even more? How do you quantify?

How about sharecroppers? Should they get nothing? The civil war made their lot even worse, if possible.

I understand the perspectives from both sides. Yet, I lean slightly in opposition to reparation. The significant straw for me is that it would just be too difficult and costly to determine how much each family or individual Black man should receive. Perhaps a generation or two ago, it would have been evident who was hurt by slavery and how much a family should receive. This is 2007 and too much has transpired since the “good old days”. It would be too complex to play the white/black wealth redistribution game today.

 

[William Joyce]

Racism is institutionalized It is a threat to black people in their daily lives. For instance, the practice of “redlining” still exists, and in fact, flourishes. That is, when looking for a house, minorities will be led out of “white” neighborhoods. No matter how much money they have. It is very difficult for them to enjoy the accouterments of a middle class lifestyle, which include, most obviously, quality school districts, existing mainly in the neighborhoods they are directed away from.

Another example is, job searches. A recent study was done. The researchers made up resumes reflecting highly qualified job candidates. They put names like “Joe Johnson” on one set of resumes, and names like “Latifah Jones” on another set of resumes.

The resumes which had “white sounding” names on them got 50 percent more call-backs than the resumes with “black sounding” names. These were the exact same resumes.

Now, people will tell you racism has become rare, and it does not hold minorities back. That is, demonstrably, untrue.

White people are not threatened by racism, but any racism directed at them, is not institionalized. It cannot keep them out of homes or jobs. They benefit from the institution of racism, and always have.

And all you white guys who say different? Mostly just stone cold racists. Though there a couple of you mixed in who don't know your ass from your elbow without a map and pictures. So, which are you?

Yet what if there are perfectly rational reasons for all the "problems" you cite? Example: Say you're a white boss. You've had dozens of black employees come before, dozens of whites, dozens of Asians, etc. In your experience, the black employees worked less hard, complained more often, turned in deficient work and then capped it all off by complaining of "racism" if you complained about them. Now, isn't it LOGICAL for you, by the sheer math of it, to be wary of "Latifah Jones"?

I think it is.

I'm sure you disagree.

By modern standards, this makes me a racist. But "racist" is a pejorative term that doesn't help us much... it just means "an asshole who hasn't been to sensitivity class." Well buddy, I've BEEN to sensitivity class. I'm not uninformed or (unnecessarily) mean. I'm just making an observation about how life really is.

The hard truth is that blacks are NOT as smart, NOT as hard-working, NOT as capable of high-quality work or innovation or organization as whites. If they were, Haiti would be a paradise. Blacks there are on a TROPICAL ISLAND rich in natural resources, they've got self-rule and have for 100 years, and there isn't a white man in sight to hold them back. But it's a shithole of unimaginable proportions. Same for all of Africa, including now South Africa. Kids, it wasn't "racism" or the weather or colonialism or MTV that caused any of that. It was BLACK PEOPLE.

Now, we can be polite and ignore all that, but there's a problem with that approach. Blacks are demanding that whites help them, give them money, give them their jobs, their places in school, etc. But that's not a valid demand because it's not whites' fault that blacks aren't equal to whites. It's like an ugly girl who gets turned down for dates, THEN STARTS SCREAMING THAT SHE HAS A 'RIGHT' TO A DATE! And normally politeness dictates that you don't tell her she's ugly. Well, now you can tell her: Lady, you're ugly.

 

[Larkinn]

Yet what if there are perfectly rational reasons for all the "problems" you cite? Example: Say you're a white boss. You've had dozens of black employees come before, dozens of whites, dozens of Asians, etc. In your experience, the black employees worked less hard, complained more often, turned in deficient work and then capped it all off by complaining of "racism" if you complained about them. Now, isn't it LOGICAL for you, by the sheer math of it, to be wary of "Latifah Jones"?

I think it is.

No, actually its not. In fact it is exactly illogical to do that. Its a common human failure though, your not alone in your mistake.

By modern standards, this makes me a racist. But "racist" is a pejorative term that doesn't help us much... it just means "an asshole who hasn't been to sensitivity class." Well buddy, I've BEEN to sensitivity class. I'm not uninformed or (unnecessarily) mean. I'm just making an observation about how life really is.

No, you are making an assumption from anecodtal evidence. Not only is this racist, but it is also stupid.

The hard truth is that blacks are NOT as smart, NOT as hard-working, NOT as capable of high-quality work or innovation or organization as whites. If they were, Haiti would be a paradise. Blacks there are on a TROPICAL ISLAND rich in natural resources, they've got self-rule and have for 100 years, and there isn't a white man in sight to hold them back. But it's a shithole of unimaginable proportions. Same for all of Africa, including now South Africa. Kids, it wasn't "racism" or the weather or colonialism or MTV that caused any of that. It was BLACK PEOPLE.

Read a bit of history, boy. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[William Joyce]

How is it illogical to respond to a series of constants with an assumption that the next set in the series will be the same? I.E., if you burned yourself the first 999 times you stuck your finger in a flame, it's ILLOGICAL to assume you'll get a toasty pinky for the 100th?

That's nuts.

 

[Larkinn]

How is it illogical to respond to a series of constants with an assumption that the next set in the series will be the same? I.E., if you burned yourself the first 999 times you stuck your finger in a flame, it's ILLOGICAL to assume you'll get a toasty pinky for the 100th?

That's nuts.

Yup. Its illogical. And no...its not nuts. You just don't know what logic is. But most people don't really...or they use it horribly wrong.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

what?,

 

[lieberalism]

black people's contributions to america: being slaves and jazz music.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is NO credible evidence that Black people are not as smart as white people. That is wishful thinking by racists to defend their ignorant views.

Then we have the argument that blacks need help cause they were slaves, that somehow EVERY white person was rich, had a mansion to stay in and a daddy to give them thousands of dollars to start their " career".

Such an assumption is just as ridiculous as the "all blacks are dumber then whites" claim.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

that is factually incorrect. this links disprove your statement.

http://www.africanamericans.com/FamousContributors.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_1_61/ai_n15770851

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sayitloud/phillips220

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=1843

http://www.nathanielturner.com/africanretentions.htm

black people's contributions to america: being slaves and jazz music.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

For the record, I never said, I thought blacks were dumber then whites, or inferior intectually, what i said was, perhaps, key word perhaps, some races or people are better at some things then others. Its worthy of discussion, but not to degrade people, more as a topic of discussion.

There is NO credible evidence that Black people are not as smart as white people. That is wishful thinking by racists to defend their ignorant views.

Then we have the argument that blacks need help cause they were slaves, that somehow EVERY white person was rich, had a mansion to stay in and a daddy to give them thousands of dollars to start their " career".

Such an assumption is just as ridiculous as the "all blacks are dumber then whites" claim.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

for the sake or argument, i did this search in google, find whatever other evidence you wish.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=does+race+pertain+to+intelligence

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I think this is a soft bigotry. I agree with you.



Then we have the argument that blacks need help cause they were slaves, that somehow EVERY white person was rich, had a mansion to stay in and a daddy to give them thousands of dollars to start their " career".

Such an assumption is just as ridiculous as the "all blacks are dumber then whites" claim.[/QUOTE]

 

[lieberalism]

i forgot, blacks contribute more to crime than anyone else. this is fact, and to make it fun for the libs to scramble for evidence to prove me wrong, i wont quote a single source so that they can desperately try to find one proving me wrong.

the fact is that blacks still live in jungles with no rule of law, like savages, in many parts of the world. it is only very recently that some of them have come in contact with civilization. so they still have their strong animal instinct. this means they are more violent, not as smart, and dont understand laws and rules. the liberals want to ignore science, and say that blacks are as smart as whites. the fact is for 400 years white slave owners bred their slaves to be as athletic as possible and as dumb as possible. basically create a model slave who was too dumb to resist and athletic so they could work hard and were strong for the job. this is why the professional sports are dominated by blacks. they have been bred for that purpose. but notice most quarterbacks, kickers, managers and coaches are white.

 

[William Joyce]

There is NO credible evidence that Black people are not as smart as white people.

This is dead wrong. The statistics are overwhelming. It's been known since WWI recruitment testing that the black IQ is 15 points lower, on average. I can refer you to a library's worth of books by heavy-hitting scholars on this very topic, from Herrnstein and Murray to Arthur Jensen to Sarich and Miele to Rushton.

As I mentioned to actsnoblemartin, a book called 'Why Race Matters' by City University of New York philosophy professor Michael Levin is a devastating treatment of all these questions.

It is a fact harder than steel. The only real question is how will you handle the truth?

 

[mattskramer]

black people's contributions to america: being slaves and jazz music.

I like the automatic gearshift, myself. A Black man – Richard Spikes - invented it. He invented several other things too. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spikes

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_black_innovators,_inventors_and_scientists

for a list of other Black innovators and inventors.

 

[William Joyce]

I like the automatic gearshift, myself. A Black man – Richard Spikes - invented it. He invented several other things too. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Spikes

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_black_innovators,_inventors_and_scientists

for a list of other Black innovators and inventors.

At one office I worked in, a black woman had a poster behind her desk listing all the alleged inventions of black people. It listed the computer chip and the jet engine as being invented by blacks. The poster was festooned with black, red and green "black power" flags. Needless to say, I was a little dubious.

I haven't read matt's wiki list and I'm sure there's some validity to it, but:

A good question to ask is, if blacks are such great inventors, why aren't the inner cities, Africa, etc. overflowing with mechanical genius and innovation that lifts the lot of blacks? Why can't blacks in Africa put together RUNNING WATER? Much less electricity, etc.?

 

[mattskramer]

This is dead wrong. The statistics are overwhelming. It's been known since WWI recruitment testing that the black IQ is 15 points lower, on average. I can refer you to a library's worth of books by heavy-hitting scholars on this very topic, from Herrnstein and Murray to Arthur Jensen to Sarich and Miele to Rushton.

As I mentioned to actsnoblemartin, a book called 'Why Race Matters' by City University of New York philosophy professor Michael Levin is a devastating treatment of all these questions.

It is a fact harder than steel. The only real question is how will you handle the truth?

I question it. Do you have an unbiased link with statistics?

Are you saying that Blacks are not as smart or as intelligent as Whites or are you saying that Blacks score below Whites on IQ tests? There is a difference. What do IQ tests measure except what one has learned? Finally, assuming that Blacks are less intelligent, and perhaps most importantly, WHY are Blacks less intelligent? Is it due to genetics or conditioning? I suggest that differences are due to parental and environmental conditioning. If you raise a Black child with the same type of parents and guardians and environment as you do a White child, send them to the exact same school to learn the exact same stuff, expose them to the exact same friends, with the exact same encouragement, I think that the intelligence test results will be practically identical.

 

[mattskramer]

At one office I worked in, a black woman had a poster behind her desk listing all the alleged inventions of black people. It listed the computer chip and the jet engine as being invented by blacks. The poster was festooned with black, red and green "black power" flags. Needless to say, I was a little dubious.

I haven't read matt's wiki list and I'm sure there's some validity to it, but:

A good question to ask is, if blacks are such great inventors, why aren't the inner cities, Africa, etc. overflowing with mechanical genius and innovation that lifts the lot of blacks? Why can't blacks in Africa put together RUNNING WATER? Much less electricity, etc.?

Don’t White people live in those nations too? Why haven’t they done great things? Anyway, I think that other nations have other variables to consider. In America we started with very fertile land, we forced Black slaves to work hard for practically nothing. Other nations have other historic and environmental factors. Right off hand, I don’t have specifics. I just doubt that you can do a pure side-by-side comparison without removing possible interfering factors and variables.