Which Freedoms Lost?

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I've heard much about Obama's Administration and our current Democrat-run Congress taking away our freedoms from the Tea Party and GOP candidates attempting to rally the TP as their base. I honestly don't know what freedoms we've lost, other than the freedom to pay women less for the same work, the freedom for health insurance companies to victimize their clients (and citizens will have to have health insurance which I think of as losing a freedom to be irresponsible toward your fellow human beings), and the freedom for credit card companies to bamboozle their card holders. I remember when the Patriot Act passed and some of our freedoms actually were lost.

I would like to ask those who believe we've lost freedoms to explain which freedoms we've lost since the end of the last administration - in other words, what freedoms have we lost since the Obama administration took over. This isn't a challenge, I honestly want to understand the ever-growing point of view on this subject.

And, please, let's keep it civil.

I have 2 from the health care bill.

I have lost the freedom to choose not to buy health insurance from a private company.

I have lost the liberty to decide which level of health coverage I would like to pay for.



I get the growing feeling that his administration and many of the progressives in government want to take away my liberty to make other personal choices too. For example Boston wants to ban sugared drinks. Yes boston wants to take away my liberty of choice in beverages....whats next alcohol (oh yeah that doesn't work). Medical Daily: Boston may ban sugary drinks

What about the farmer that got fined $5000.00 for giving away the vegetables he grew? Georgia farmer fined $5K for growing too many veggies | Food Freedom



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I have 2 from the health care bill.

I have lost the freedom to choose not to buy health insurance from a private company.

I have lost the liberty to decide which level of health coverage I would like to pay for.

\
Do you currently have no insurace? If so, which Freedom have you lost?

How many Conservatives screaming about their loss of freedom are voluntarily without insurance? They just don't want other Americans to have it

Yes I currently Have insurance because I am forced by my state government to buy it. I have lost the freedom to choose to not purchase said insurance without negative financial consequences imposed by both my state and now the federal government.

If I was given the liberty to choose to not pay $80/week for health insurance I would not have health insurance right now I would have that money in my pocket. As it stands now I have lost that freedom of choice...if I do not have coverage my state will fine me $2000/year.

Your argument that people "just don't want other americans to have it(health insurance)" is what people call a straw man argument.

 

[rightwinger]

Conservatives are pro-choice now?

Up until your choices effect the freedom of others, yes. that's me anyway. I'm not much of a conservative anymore.

You still have choice. The insurance industry made sure of that. You can choose from hundreds of policies available to you. You ask for a choice of having insurance or not. Yet how many of those screaming about losing this choice would ever consider going without insurance?

That's really the argument you want to use? It's okay to mandate things because pretty much everyone would choose to do it anyway? Fucking brilliant.

I find all of this very interesting that the OP asked a question about freedom lost, and when one is obviously pointed out where now there is less choice than there was before, none of you slimy libs have the integrity to say 'okay you're right, Obama did take away some freedom'. At the very least admit it and explain why in this instance removing freedom is okay.

OK.....fair enough

If you want the right to choose not to have health insurance. How about you sign a waiver of coverage so that if you are in an accident or get cancer that you agree that the state does not have to pick up your bill?

Are you ready to sign?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

It's not just about personal liberties, it's about freedom from stifling regulations in business as well.

More rhetoric...no details (aka Teabagger-logic).

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Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009



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Wall Street Reform

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[rightwinger]

Your argument that people "just don't want other americans to have it(health insurance)" is what people call a straw man argument.

Far from it

Protesters whined about the fact that if 30 million Americans were to receive healthcare, then there would be less for them.

The "Rationing" argument is nothing more than "I got mine...the hell with you"

 

[Mr Natural]

Your argument that people "just don't want other americans to have it(health insurance)" is what people call a straw man argument.

Far from it

Protesters whined about the fact that if 30 million Americans were to receive healthcare, then there would be less for them.

The "Rationing" argument is nothing more than "I got mine...the hell with you"

AKA the conservative mantra.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The freedom to not give my money to a health insurance company if I don't want to.

And to counter this, I have gained the freedom to not fund your hospital bill when you can't pay.

....Or, at least, until that care has reached a critical-stage...and, (more-expensive) Emergency Care is required; one o' the many perks of not have Universal/Preventative-care, for everyone (what was sold as fiscal-responsibility; 2000-thru-2008). ​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The freedom to not give my money to a health insurance company if I don't want to.

And to counter this, I have gained the freedom to not fund your hospital bill when you can't pay.

Who says you would have to? Maybe I want to pay for it out of pocket. Or I work out a payment plan with the hospital. What would happen if you didn't have car insurance and you needed repairs? You think the tax payers would pick that up? Of course not. Why should health care service be any different?

The difference would be....if you can't afford to get your car back-up-on-its-feet, you'd have to find some other means of transportation....at least, on a temporary-basis.

If you worked-out payments (to a hospital) for, possibly, a few-hundred-thousand dollars....then, lose your job....you could end-up losing everything. Your choice....at the front-end....would be, do you risk that gamble, do you stick the taxpayers with the bill, or do you defer care....and, end-up with a stinking-corpse....possibly one o' your children?​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

It's not just about personal liberties, it's about freedom from stifling regulations in business as well.

Liberals only see regulation as beneficial. Somehow it MUST be good for the people if we're holding business back.

I hope someday that liberals can realize the negatives involved in much of today's regulation. How lobbyists typically WRITE those regulations so that competition can be stifled in the marketplace and the biggest companies can thrive.

I think business' should have the same "freedoms" we consumers have - including the "freedom" to pay the consequences of bad decisions.

.....By laying-off people. We've already seen that.​

 

[Urkie]

Welcome to the board.

What nation are you posting from, if I may end a sentence with a preposition...?

When will you visit us in America?

It seems that you are unaware of how friendly and humane our nation is...we have always had healthcare for all people in America, citizens, visitors, even illegal immigrants.

Glad to be able to enlighten you.

Visit soon!

Where am I from? Originally from Canada where I didn't have to worry about health insurance and you know what? That was kind of nice.

It's a different world in the States though and apparently you don't understand that. If I had a little more time I'd devulge a bit more but from my point of view health insurance isn't something you can put a price on. I don't mind paying for it myself but why should someone die or have to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford it? That is not friendly and humane to use your words.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

How many more business "freedoms" thru regulation have we lost since Obama became president?

Well let's wait and see what the brandy new Consumer finance Protection Bureau will do for business.

Talk about sidestepping the laws on this one. Obama appoints Warren without senate confirmation by calling her an assistant to Gutless Geithner and since the money for this new bureau comes from the federal reserve....

You've obviously seen the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection's budget.

Perhaps you can share that info with everyone else. ​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Who says you would have to? Maybe I want to pay for it out of pocket. Or I work out a payment plan with the hospital. What would happen if you didn't have car insurance and you needed repairs? You think the tax payers would pick that up? Of course not. Why should health care service be any different?

Regadless the point is made. I have lost the freedom to choose due directly to an Obama piece of legislation.

REALLY? You don't understand how our system works and yet you want to openly debate it? In America, hospital emergency rooms CANNOT deny you care by law. That is why it is different from car insurance.

I'd like to see hospitals be able to demand guarantee of payment upfront.

If you come in with crushing chest pain and a wheelbarrow full of cash, then you will be seen.

If you come in with crushing chest pain and an insurance card, you will be seen.

If you come in with crushing chest pain and no payment, you will die.

It's called capitalism.

Wouldn't it be more fiscally-prudent (in a "conservative" kind-o'-way) to merely round-up all o' the insurance-deficient, and exterminate them in groups....or, is there more entertainment-value in killing them, singularly??

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[Micky G. Jagger]

It's not just about personal liberties, it's about freedom from stifling regulations in business as well.

What business are you in, and what are the most stifling regulations you have to deal with in your business?

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

It's about freedom from stifling regulations in business as well.

What business are you in, and what are the most stifling regulations you have to deal with in your business?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Well let's wait and see what the brandy new Consumer finance Protection Bureau will do for business.

Talk about sidestepping the laws on this one. Obama appoints Warren without senate confirmation by calling her an assistant to Gutless Geithner and since the money for this new bureau comes from the federal reserve, our elected representatives cannot even vote on whether to fund it.

You want to talk loss of freedoms, just wait to see what an unelected heavily funded, untouchable government shill like Warren can do.

In other words, there have been no losses. Thanks.

Says you.

Run a business and then tell me that the fucking government doesn't rape you. And Obama pulling shit like he did with Warren ain't going to make life any easier for businesses.

Been a tough Summer (again, for you), with the ol' lemonade-stand, huh?? ​

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

Liberals only see regulation as beneficial. Somehow it MUST be good for the people if we're holding business back.

Get real, dude.

I hope someday that liberals can realize the negatives involved in much of today's regulation.

Tell us about the regulation you believe involves the greatest negativeness.

Lobbyists WRITE those regulations so that competition can be stifled in the marketplace and the biggest companies can thrive.

We need a bigger government. One that is more powerful than the biggest corporations.

I propose more Congressional regulation of the influence big corporations have on our lawmakers.

 

[FireGod]

Welcome to the board.

What nation are you posting from, if I may end a sentence with a preposition...?

When will you visit us in America?

It seems that you are unaware of how friendly and humane our nation is...we have always had healthcare for all people in America, citizens, visitors, even illegal immigrants.

Glad to be able to enlighten you.

Visit soon!

Where am I from? Originally from Canada where I didn't have to worry about health insurance and you know what? That was kind of nice.

It's a different world in the States though and apparently you don't understand that. If I had a little more time I'd devulge a bit more but from my point of view health insurance isn't something you can put a price on. I don't mind paying for it myself but why should someone die or have to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford it? That is not friendly and humane to use your words.

Who ever said that capitalism is human or friendly? It is all about the money/profit period.

If you can not pay you die plain and simple and good riddance to you (hopefully before you muck up the gene pool more with your spawn). The US is not about humanity, it is all about making money. The people who are not able to make money then give it to the health insurance industry need to move on and die to make room for those that can, it is the Capitalist US way. Until this is understood the US will continue to have increasing fatality rates in children and life expectancy will continue to go down. That is ok though as only the strong will survive (as it should be).

 

[Mr. Shaman]

And that is fair. IF we do not require people to have health insurance, THEN this law needs to be struck down, so the for-profit hospitals can tend to those of us responsible enough to have insurance and/or the ability to pay for the care.

But what do we do with emergency patients who can't pay? Have them die outside the door when they have treatable conditions?

What's the other option? Socialism?

....Like Medicare???? ​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Well let's wait and see what the brandy new Consumer finance Protection Bureau will do for business.

Talk about sidestepping the laws on this one. Obama appoints Warren without senate confirmation by calling her an assistant to Gutless Geithner and since the money for this new bureau comes from the federal reserve, our elected representatives cannot even vote on whether to fund it.

You want to talk loss of freedoms, just wait to see what an unelected heavily funded, untouchable government shill like Warren can do.

In other words, there have been no losses. Thanks.

Being free means having the opportunity to work hard in order to earn the money and personal property necessary to reach one’s potential and goals. Additionally, unless one has the power to decide how he can use the fruits of his labors to realize his dreams, one cannot pursue his happiness, and thus, is not free.

ObamaCare will impose enormous taxation on all working Americans. The confiscation of even more of a person’s net revenue strips away that person’s freedoms. It is as simple as that. When one has less disposable income, one has less choices. When one has less choices, one is less free.

....And, we certainly have seen worse-case-scenarios-of-THAT!!!!



You're almost tempted to LEAVE THE COUNTRY!!!!​

 

[Barb]

Remember the cacophonous wailing of the left over the Bush administration's alleged politicization of the Justice Department? We always knew they were just projecting, but now we have even more proof.

No lie.

If anyone needed any proof positive that there's no difference in substance between the remocrats and depublicans need look no further than the exchange of this inane "what freedoms have you lost" yammering point, coinciding with the change of which party is driving the central authoritarian agenda.

Okay, but:
Did you complain during the former eight years?
and
The question was :what did you lose UNDER this administration...carryover doesn't seem to qualify for that point.

I think Obama is too centrist, too accommodating to the right (HC is one example, it got WAY watered down, Gitmo another, that was supposed to close), and that the democrats in general (at the nationals, up to and including the Pres) operate as if the consensus of the 50s and earliest 60s still exist. They try to play by "gentleman's rules," at least publicly, and beneficial policy that they were elected to get through falls by the wayside because of polling that is driven by advertising and marketing, driven by the last cycles memes and public policy advocacy that has nothing to do with WHY they were elected in the first place. It all becomes about electability instead of what they were hired to DO by the majority of the electorate; which was to enact their party platform. They aren't learned enough to use all the tools at their disposal, and aren't aggressive enough to use the tools they do know how to use.

Republicans, on the other hand, have corporate sponsorship on a grand scale, including the media which is corporate owned and run, and which, like it or not, whose owners identify with corporate values of social control, hegemony, and dominance. They use ably and without a hint of restraint all of the tools at their disposal to ram rod their party's platform, as well as to make sure their memes are carried over and that theirs are the loudest (which is not the same as the most numerous) voices speaking to and about public policy even in democratic administrations.

So there is a difference. Republicans are bullies, and Democrats are craven pussies.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Yes I currently Have insurance because I am forced by my state government to buy it. I have lost the freedom to choose to not purchase said insurance without negative financial consequences imposed by both my state and now the federal government.

If I was given the liberty to choose to not pay $80/week for health insurance I would not have health insurance right now I would have that money in my pocket. As it stands now I have lost that freedom of choice...if I do not have coverage my state will fine me $2000/year.

Your argument that people "just don't want other americans to have it(health insurance)" is what people call a straw man argument.

Far from it

Protesters whined about the fact that if 30 million Americans were to receive healthcare, then there would be less for them.

The "Rationing" argument is nothing more than "I got mine...the hell with you"

AKA the conservative mantra.

Read the definition of a strawman argument and you will see why I call this a strawman argument, especially in response to me.

Rightwinger what do you think about the rest of my post that you didn't respond to?