Which Freedoms Lost?

[Bern80]

Conservatives are pro-choice now?

Up until your choices effect the freedom of others, yes. that's me anyway. I'm not much of a conservative anymore.

You still have choice. The insurance industry made sure of that. You can choose from hundreds of policies available to you. You ask for a choice of having insurance or not. Yet how many of those screaming about losing this choice would ever consider going without insurance?

That's really the argument you want to use? It's okay to mandate things because pretty much everyone would choose to do it anyway? Fucking brilliant.

I find all of this very interesting that the OP asked a question about freedom lost, and when one is obviously pointed out where now there is less choice than there was before, none of you slimy libs have the integrity to say 'okay you're right, Obama did take away some freedom'. At the very least admit it and explain why in this instance removing freedom is okay.

OK.....fair enough

If you want the right to choose not to have health insurance. How about you sign a waiver of coverage so that if you are in an accident or get cancer that you agree that the state does not have to pick up your bill?

Are you ready to sign?

YES!

See never once have I suggested that you should not be responsible financially for services rendered to you, medical or otherwise. In this thread or maybe another we talked about EMATLA (I think that's the acronym) which basically says an emergency room can not refuse emergency care to someone. Whether they can pay at the time or not, you treat them. You work out how they're going to pay for it later if they can't. What government ought to be doing is facilitating that by fiiguring out how to make what you do have to pay cost less.

I get that most people aren't going to choose to not have insurance in which case it makes it very easy to say 'well let's just make having it mandatory then'. But it is extremely dangerous I believe to set a precedent that government can enact laws telling you what you must go out and privately purchase. Would you be okay with government requiring you to go out and purchase a Prius?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

There shouldn't be a fucking choice when it comes to health insurance. It's one of the things every single person should have. The thought of not having it at any point is downright scary because accidents do happen you know.

Is that really hard to understand? Actually, it is for conservatives because a persons health should be something that you can put a price on...get real

....All-of-which would lead to something as simple as Medicare for All.

Make an already-existing program work more-accurately; problem solved.​

 

[Barb]

You may have agreed with what I said earlier, but that's not in any way me supporting the idea that we should ever be REQUIRED to carry health insurance.

And that is fair. IF we do not require people to have health insurance, THEN this law needs to be struck down, so the for-profit hospitals can tend to those of us responsible enough to have insurance and/or the ability to pay for the care.

But what do we do with emergency patients who can't pay? Have them die outside the door when they have treatable conditions?

And that is the thing. Is public health a public good, or a commodity to be bought and sold? This is one example of the failure of the "market" as the answer to everyfuckingthing. In a civilized society, the market is not the be all and end all. Government DOES have a role to play in providing public goods, because the market won't without a profit.

 

[Bern80]

And that is fair. IF we do not require people to have health insurance, THEN this law needs to be struck down, so the for-profit hospitals can tend to those of us responsible enough to have insurance and/or the ability to pay for the care.

But what do we do with emergency patients who can't pay? Have them die outside the door when they have treatable conditions?

And that is the thing. Is public health a public good, or a commodity to be bought and sold? This is one example of the failure of the "market" as the answer to everyfuckingthing. In a civilized society, the market is not the be all and end all. Government DOES have a role to play in providing public goods, because the market won't without a profit.

I thnk you need to consider the possiblity that the reasons we are having the problems we have with health care is because the market is NOT being allowed to work, not because the market system is failing with respect to health care.

 

[Urkie]

Who ever said that capitalism is human or friendly? It is all about the money/profit period.

If you can not pay you die plain and simple and good riddance to you (hopefully before you muck up the gene pool more with your spawn). The US is not about humanity, it is all about making money. The people who are not able to make money then give it to the health insurance industry need to move on and die to make room for those that can, it is the Capitalist US way. Until this is understood the US will continue to have increasing fatality rates in children and life expectancy will continue to go down. That is ok though as only the strong will survive (as it should be).

I'm not against capitalism. I just don't think it's the right idea to have when it comes to health insurance.

And I can't believe you just used a survival of the fittest example. I guess people are nothing more then scraps to you. I honestly can't believe that's the way you think. It's downright scary.

 

[FireGod]

But what do we do with emergency patients who can't pay? Have them die outside the door when they have treatable conditions?

And that is the thing. Is public health a public good, or a commodity to be bought and sold? This is one example of the failure of the "market" as the answer to everyfuckingthing. In a civilized society, the market is not the be all and end all. Government DOES have a role to play in providing public goods, because the market won't without a profit.

I thnk you need to consider the possiblity that the reasons we are having the problems we have with health care is because the market is NOT being allowed to work, not because the market system is failing with respect to health care.

Really? So how is it supposed to be allowed to work?

 

[Urkie]

I thnk you need to consider the possiblity that the reasons we are having the problems we have with health care is because the market is NOT being allowed to work, not because the market system is failing with respect to health care.

The Health Insurance companies were allowed to work as they wished and guess what? They developed a thing called "pre-existing conditions" which would eliminate you as a potential customer if you had some kind of disease or had a disease in the past.

Why is government actually good in this case? Because they don't take a side. They are a neutral party that won't look to make a profit.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Welcome to the board.

What nation are you posting from, if I may end a sentence with a preposition...?

When will you visit us in America?

It seems that you are unaware of how friendly and humane our nation is...we have always had healthcare for all people in America, citizens, visitors, even illegal immigrants.

Glad to be able to enlighten you.

Visit soon!

Where am I from? Originally from Canada where I didn't have to worry about health insurance and you know what? That was kind of nice.

It's a different world in the States though and apparently you don't understand that. If I had a little more time I'd devulge a bit more but from my point of view health insurance isn't something you can put a price on. I don't mind paying for it myself but why should someone die or have to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford it? That is not friendly and humane to use your words.

Who ever said that capitalism is human or friendly? It is all about the money/profit period.

If you can not pay you die plain and simple and good riddance to you (hopefully before you muck up the gene pool more with your spawn). The US is not about humanity, it is all about making money. The people who are not able to make money then give it to the health insurance industry need to move on and die to make room for those that can, it is the Capitalist US way. Until this is understood the US will continue to have increasing fatality rates in children and life expectancy will continue to go down. That is ok though as only the strong will survive (as it should be).

You forgot your soundtrack......

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai_bOYJLwYs]YouTube - Germany national anthem.(1936)[/ame]​

 

[FireGod]

Who ever said that capitalism is human or friendly? It is all about the money/profit period.

If you can not pay you die plain and simple and good riddance to you (hopefully before you muck up the gene pool more with your spawn). The US is not about humanity, it is all about making money. The people who are not able to make money then give it to the health insurance industry need to move on and die to make room for those that can, it is the Capitalist US way. Until this is understood the US will continue to have increasing fatality rates in children and life expectancy will continue to go down. That is ok though as only the strong will survive (as it should be).

I'm not against capitalism. I just don't think it's the right idea to have when it comes to health insurance.

And I can't believe you just used a survival of the fittest example. I guess people are nothing more then scraps to you. I honestly can't believe that's the way you think. It's downright scary.

When it comes to profit/loss aspect people are usually in the loss column. People are scraps, there are more than enough of them to be replaceable at any level, and in any way, it the capitalist mind. Face it once your worth is no longer of positive value on the balance sheet it is time to stop wasting resources on you. Because that is what it is, a waste for no particular benefit to the bottom line.

Survival of the fittest works in that if you are not fit enough to be able to afford health care then tough. Why should those fit enough pay the bills of those who are not fit? On top of the fact if you are stupid enough to get hurt why allow you not to learn from your mistake? It weakens the species as a whole not to mention kills the motivation for those who want to rise above their station (we capitalists love those people for their gullibility, it is so very easy to string them along). The fact is the US citizen only has the rights that the capitalists allow them to have. There is no room in capitalism for charity, a straight loss (waste of money) on the balance sheet.

 

[FireGod]

Where am I from? Originally from Canada where I didn't have to worry about health insurance and you know what? That was kind of nice.

It's a different world in the States though and apparently you don't understand that. If I had a little more time I'd devulge a bit more but from my point of view health insurance isn't something you can put a price on. I don't mind paying for it myself but why should someone die or have to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford it? That is not friendly and humane to use your words.

Who ever said that capitalism is human or friendly? It is all about the money/profit period.

If you can not pay you die plain and simple and good riddance to you (hopefully before you muck up the gene pool more with your spawn). The US is not about humanity, it is all about making money. The people who are not able to make money then give it to the health insurance industry need to move on and die to make room for those that can, it is the Capitalist US way. Until this is understood the US will continue to have increasing fatality rates in children and life expectancy will continue to go down. That is ok though as only the strong will survive (as it should be).

You forgot your soundtrack......

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai_bOYJLwYs]YouTube - Germany national anthem.(1936)[/ame]​

Umm Nazism is not Capitalism two very different concepts.

 

[Mr Natural]

I thnk you need to consider the possiblity that the reasons we are having the problems we have with health care is because the market is NOT being allowed to work, not because the market system is failing with respect to health care.

The Health Insurance companies were allowed to work as they wished and guess what? They developed a thing called "pre-existing conditions" which would eliminate you as a potential customer if you had some kind of disease or had a disease in the past.

Why is government actually good in this case? Because they don't take a side. They are a neutral party that won't look to make a profit.

Theoretically, of course.

But by the time the lobbyists get done working on the politicians, the concept of government neutrality is long gone.

 

[Urkie]

When it comes to profit/loss aspect people are usually in the loss column. People are scraps, there are more than enough of them to be replaceable at any level, and in any way, it the capitalist mind. Face it once your worth is no longer of positive value on the balance sheet it is time to stop wasting resources on you. Because that is what it is, a waste for no particular benefit to the bottom line.

Survival of the fittest works in that if you are not fit enough to be able to afford health care then tough. Why should those fit enough pay the bills of those who are not fit? On top of the fact if you are stupid enough to get hurt why allow you not to learn from your mistake? It weakens the species as a whole not to mention kills the motivation for those who want to rise above their station (we capitalists love those people for their gullibility, it is so very easy to string them along). The fact is the US citizen only has the rights that the capitalists allow them to have. There is no room in capitalism for charity, a straight loss (waste of money) on the balance sheet.

It's good I got you to go into more detail about your ideology. I hadn't realized this is how conservatives really see things.

Something you will never understand. There are plenty of hardworking people out there who really try to make it and get don't because maybe they aren't as smart as the guy next to them or weren't fortunate enough to go to college. We don't live in a perfect world so why should everybody have to be perfect as you insinuate?

"All men are created equal." You ever hear that one from somewhere? What you are saying is not that...

 

[Mr Natural]

When it comes to profit/loss aspect people are usually in the loss column. People are scraps, there are more than enough of them to be replaceable at any level, and in any way, it the capitalist mind. Face it once your worth is no longer of positive value on the balance sheet it is time to stop wasting resources on you. Because that is what it is, a waste for no particular benefit to the bottom line.

Survival of the fittest works in that if you are not fit enough to be able to afford health care then tough. Why should those fit enough pay the bills of those who are not fit? On top of the fact if you are stupid enough to get hurt why allow you not to learn from your mistake? It weakens the species as a whole not to mention kills the motivation for those who want to rise above their station (we capitalists love those people for their gullibility, it is so very easy to string them along). The fact is the US citizen only has the rights that the capitalists allow them to have. There is no room in capitalism for charity, a straight loss (waste of money) on the balance sheet.

It's good I got you to go into more detail about your ideology. I hadn't realized this is how conservatives really see things.

Something you will never understand. There are plenty of hardworking people out there who really try to make it and get don't because maybe they aren't as smart as the guy next to them or weren't fortunate enough to go to college. We don't live in a perfect world so why should everybody have to be perfect as you insinuate?

"All men are created equal." You ever hear that one from somewhere? What you are saying is not that...

The creation process is equal but what happens after that is pretty much a crapshoot.

 

[Coyote]

Who ever said that capitalism is human or friendly? It is all about the money/profit period.

If you can not pay you die plain and simple and good riddance to you (hopefully before you muck up the gene pool more with your spawn). The US is not about humanity, it is all about making money. The people who are not able to make money then give it to the health insurance industry need to move on and die to make room for those that can, it is the Capitalist US way. Until this is understood the US will continue to have increasing fatality rates in children and life expectancy will continue to go down. That is ok though as only the strong will survive (as it should be).

I'm not against capitalism. I just don't think it's the right idea to have when it comes to health insurance.

And I can't believe you just used a survival of the fittest example. I guess people are nothing more then scraps to you. I honestly can't believe that's the way you think. It's downright scary.

When it comes to profit/loss aspect people are usually in the loss column. People are scraps, there are more than enough of them to be replaceable at any level, and in any way, it the capitalist mind. Face it once your worth is no longer of positive value on the balance sheet it is time to stop wasting resources on you. Because that is what it is, a waste for no particular benefit to the bottom line.

Survival of the fittest works in that if you are not fit enough to be able to afford health care then tough. Why should those fit enough pay the bills of those who are not fit? On top of the fact if you are stupid enough to get hurt why allow you not to learn from your mistake? It weakens the species as a whole not to mention kills the motivation for those who want to rise above their station (we capitalists love those people for their gullibility, it is so very easy to string them along). The fact is the US citizen only has the rights that the capitalists allow them to have. There is no room in capitalism for charity, a straight loss (waste of money) on the balance sheet.

If you're going to look at economic or political systems in a Darwinian fashion, then it also might be worthwhile to remember that survival of the species doesn't always come down to survival of the individual. We're a cooperative social species and that is part of our evolutionary success. When the balance sheet is too heavily weighted on one side - enough people feel disposessed, angry, or desperate - you have revolution. Usually socialist.

 

[FireGod]

When it comes to profit/loss aspect people are usually in the loss column. People are scraps, there are more than enough of them to be replaceable at any level, and in any way, it the capitalist mind. Face it once your worth is no longer of positive value on the balance sheet it is time to stop wasting resources on you. Because that is what it is, a waste for no particular benefit to the bottom line.

Survival of the fittest works in that if you are not fit enough to be able to afford health care then tough. Why should those fit enough pay the bills of those who are not fit? On top of the fact if you are stupid enough to get hurt why allow you not to learn from your mistake? It weakens the species as a whole not to mention kills the motivation for those who want to rise above their station (we capitalists love those people for their gullibility, it is so very easy to string them along). The fact is the US citizen only has the rights that the capitalists allow them to have. There is no room in capitalism for charity, a straight loss (waste of money) on the balance sheet.

It's good I got you to go into more detail about your ideology. I hadn't realized this is how conservatives really see things.

Something you will never understand. There are plenty of hardworking people out there who really try to make it and get don't because maybe they aren't as smart as the guy next to them or weren't fortunate enough to go to college. We don't live in a perfect world so why should everybody have to be perfect as you insinuate?

"All men are created equal." You ever hear that one from somewhere? What you are saying is not that...

Too bad so sad. It is not about perfection just being able to make money.

The smart ones can rise to where they belong the others not so much, oh well they usually make good worker bees. Higher education is for those who have the privilege to earn it. I am not saying that everyone needs to be perfect, just stay healthy and contribute to the bottom line.

All men are not created equal a fact of life.

 

[FireGod]

I'm not against capitalism. I just don't think it's the right idea to have when it comes to health insurance.

And I can't believe you just used a survival of the fittest example. I guess people are nothing more then scraps to you. I honestly can't believe that's the way you think. It's downright scary.

When it comes to profit/loss aspect people are usually in the loss column. People are scraps, there are more than enough of them to be replaceable at any level, and in any way, it the capitalist mind. Face it once your worth is no longer of positive value on the balance sheet it is time to stop wasting resources on you. Because that is what it is, a waste for no particular benefit to the bottom line.

Survival of the fittest works in that if you are not fit enough to be able to afford health care then tough. Why should those fit enough pay the bills of those who are not fit? On top of the fact if you are stupid enough to get hurt why allow you not to learn from your mistake? It weakens the species as a whole not to mention kills the motivation for those who want to rise above their station (we capitalists love those people for their gullibility, it is so very easy to string them along). The fact is the US citizen only has the rights that the capitalists allow them to have. There is no room in capitalism for charity, a straight loss (waste of money) on the balance sheet.

If you're going to look at economic or political systems in a Darwinian fashion, then it also might be worthwhile to remember that survival of the species doesn't always come down to survival of the individual. We're a cooperative social species and that is part of our evolutionary success. When the balance sheet is too heavily weighted on one side - enough people feel disposessed, angry, or desperate - you have revolution. Usually socialist.

Ah but the Capitalists have learned from history. There is no chance of the US going socialist. However it is on the track to go to a capitalists wet dream and soon no one is going to be able to stop it.

 

[Bern80]

The Health Insurance companies were allowed to work as they wished and guess what? They developed a thing called "pre-existing conditions" which would eliminate you as a potential customer if you had some kind of disease or had a disease in the past.

Oh know they're not. The health insurance industry is one of the most heavilty regulated industries there is. State governments are very strict about how they must cover people and restrict them from competing across state lines. We could start by making insruance companies actually have to compete across state lines and in the type of coverage they offer.

Why is government actually good in this case? Because they don't take a side. They are a neutral party that won't look to make a profit.

You need to learn the concept of risk. Government isn't going to be able to insulate themselves from that. And frankly if you incure risk as creditor, the greater the risk the more you deserve to be compensated for taking it on.

 

[Urkie]

Too bad so sad. It is not about perfection just being able to make money.

The smart ones can rise to where they belong the others not so much, oh well they usually make good worker bees. Higher education is for those who have the privilege to earn it. I am not saying that everyone needs to be perfect, just stay healthy and contribute to the bottom line.

All men are not created equal a fact of life.

Well then why did our founding fathers write it in the constitution then? Their dream was to create a place where everyone had a chance to make it. Everyone was treated equal and we could thrive as a cohesive unit.

So you believe people should be punished for not being as intelligent as somebody else? Got it. They aren't equal to me or you because they can't make as much money as me. Got that too.

 

[Mr Natural]

Too bad so sad. It is not about perfection just being able to make money.

The smart ones can rise to where they belong the others not so much, oh well they usually make good worker bees. Higher education is for those who have the privilege to earn it. I am not saying that everyone needs to be perfect, just stay healthy and contribute to the bottom line.

All men are not created equal a fact of life.

Well then why did our founding fathers write it in the constitution then? Their dream was to create a place where everyone had a chance to make it. Everyone was treated equal and we could thrive as a cohesive unit.

So you believe people should be punished for not being as intelligent as somebody else? Got it. They aren't equal to me or you because they can't make as much money as me. Got that too.

Slavery issue notwithstanding, of course.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I didn't realize how active this thread was going to be!

And I appreciate everyone who remained civil through the discussion.

I would like to reiterate that I wanted to know which freedoms we've lost since the beginning of the Obama administration (not that I think those freedoms we've lost previous to it aren't any less valid).

So far I've seen some general posts on business regulation and health care reform (and the loss of freedom to choose is counter-balanced by the freedom to not pay higher costs and rates because of someone who chose not to get health insurance - IMHO).

Up until this post I haven't read of any real loss of individual freedoms.

There are business constraints for Wallstreet and large corporations but they aren't individuals and those constraints are in place to protect consumers from predatory lending practices and being taken advantage of by unscrupulous businesses or individuals. Now you might counter with, well, you have the freedom to choose with whom you invest and if you lose out in the end, you have the freedom to do that. However, that far more easily said than lived through. How would you feel if your grandparents or parents (or you) lost their retirements due to investment companies risky practices? If a company claims to provide services that provide mutual benefit for client and business alike, but behind the scenes destroys its long-term profitability through dangerously risky short-term gains practices - then who is at fault? You, your parents, your grandparents (and most people have a very limited understanding as to how Wallstreet firms work or the workings of the economy even with a trustworthy and helpful broker), or the firm for knowingly risking its clients' investments?

Has any new regulation been past that restricts small businesses that I am unaware of? (Sorry about the preposition at the end of a phrase, PC).