Zone1 Where We Are in the Biblical Timeline

The Irish Ram said:
And did God smite all the nations that fought against Israel, like He said He would, or was He just kidding? Either that or it is yet to happen?
Anyone with a brain cell knows what melts flesh in an instant and dissolves eye balls in the socket. It is a neutron bomb. Which can destroy all life on earth. An impossibility in 70 AD.

How was the gospel spread worldwide in 70 AD?
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Worldwide was just the Roman empire.

You are trying to read the Bible literally. It's didactic literature, not history... When you understand the symbolism you'll get it. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 1st century. They understood the symbolism.

What church taught you this "theology".
 
surada said:
Worldwide was just the Roman empire.

You are trying to read the Bible literally. It's didactic literature, not history... When you understand the symbolism you'll get it. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 1st century. They understood the symbolism.

What church taught you this "theology".
Click to expand...
No, world wide means all over the world. Literally. And it happened in our lifetime.
The Bible stated that there was a beginning. Literally. Science told us for 2,000 years that the universe has always been there. Einstein looked through Hubble's telescope one day and realized that the universe was expanding, and realized that the universe had a beginning. Literally...
 
surada said:
The tribulation was over in 70 AD. Christians avoided it by fleeing to the mountains... to Pella.
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Why the tribulation did not happen in 70 AD!
According to preterism, there will be no rapture, there is no coming Tribulation, there is no coming Antichrist, or a mark of the beast. Why? Because they already took place.
Preterism has two basic camps; Full preterism Partial preterism
Adherents to full Preterism believe that all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled, partial believe only a few things are left to be fulfilled. Tribulation events that are in the Book of Revelation; Jesus’ second coming (Matt. 24 and in Revelation 19) have taken place in the generation of the people living at the time of 70 AD.
Preterists make full use of hermeneutical gymnastics with double twists to avoid the reality: that Israel has come back into the land and the very enemies the Bible mentions are all there ready to fulfill Bible prophecies that we were told by the prophets would take place in the latter days. With stubborn and insistent denial of these facts they continue to hold to an outdated prophetic model. On the other hand, there are prophetic Bible teachers that have distorted the future view of prophecy, determining what is written is now fulfilled by the news when there are only a few similarities; they are just as wrong.
Over 300 prophecies from the Old Testament Jesus fulfilled literally, 30 of them on the day he died. So we have the Bibles interpretation of how prophecy is completed, to change this is to ignore the word the way it was written.
What I want us to look at is the prophecies of the tribulation and whether or not they were fulfilled the way the Bible explains it. Oftentimes it is not the weight of lengthy explanations that justifies ones position as valid. We should consider what is missing just as important to the equation. Bible prophecy is specific and can only be fulfilled when all the elements within are present and have taken place - the way it is written. If not then we cannot claim it has taken place.
So lets begin with the basis for this view of prophecy.
Rev 1:9: “I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation”
According to Preterism Rev.1:9 John is saying he is their brother with them in THE GREAT Tribulation; but this is not what it states.

Tribulation - Greek – thlipsis: pressure (literally or figuratively):
afflicted (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Great - Greek - megas

[including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also 3176, 3187]; big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application): (+fear) exceedingly, great (-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.
Jesus often used the word tribulation. Except for the fact that each time Jesus described the Tribulation it had a qualification, Jesus adds the word great (Greek-megas) to mean exceeding or large. Which intensifies the meaning. In its context, the whole earth and its environment will be afflicted and become a pressure cooker; we are promised it will be the last of its kind and it will end only by His coming to earth.
Preterists take the position that John wrote Revelation prior to 70 AD, which they claim is the tribulation. If John’s mention of tribulation means the great tribulation, then they were in it before 70 AD., even at the time Jesus was teaching them.

John 16:33: "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Rom 5:3: And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Rom 12:12: “rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

2 Cor 1:3-4: “ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation.”

1Thes 3:4 “For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.”

Acts 20:23 "except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Acts 14:22 continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."
Obviously there are not many great tribulations, these are referring to trials.
Rev. 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” The whole world will be involved in this trial not just secluded to Israel. This would be the Great Tribulation.
Matt 24:21: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
We have to look at the word and the Bibles DESCRIPTION of this great tribulation to understand the difference between tribulation that comes to all saints and the tribulation that will be God’s judgment of wrath on the earth.
Now lets read again Rev 1:9: “I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
If Revelation was written after 70 Ad as most date it, John is saying Jesus has not come yet, Preterists insist he has.
Matt 24:22: "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.” How? By his coming to stop it. Jesus is telling us the great tribulation is not going to go on indefinitely, it is going to end. It is Jesus who stops the tribulation from continuing by coming back to earth and destroys the armies of the world gathered against him. This did not happen as foretold. The Lord Jesus did not return during the battle of Armageddon because the battle never occurred the way it was written.
If Jesus said the time of Jacob’s trouble would be the greatest tribulation, Hitler’s Holocaust killed far more Jews and people worldwide than Nero did. (approx 40 million)
This time period is also called by Jeremiah (who announced the new covenant through Israel) as the time of Jacob’s trouble.
Jer 30:7-11: “Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.'For it shall come to pass in that day,' says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, and will burst your bonds; foreigners shall no more enslave them. But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up for them. 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; for behold, I will save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, and no one shall make him afraid. For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, and will not let you go altogether unpunished.’”
Notice they are set free, that foreigners shall no more enslave them, i.e. the Romans then, the “time of the gentiles would end.” Jacob, the 12 tribes of Israel returns to the land not is scattered (as in 70 AD). David will be king over Israel and the nations will be punished. Hardly what took place in the Roman invasion.
Zechariah 14:2 “...I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem,” This gathering of “all the nations of the earth” (Zech. 12:3) against Jerusalem has never occurred. The battle ends the Tribulation period, commonly referred to as the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16:14, 16)
We are told in 2 Thessalonians (and elsewhere) that the antichrist and a tribulation come before Christ returns to rule with a rod of iron. The mystery of lawlessness seen in 2 Thessalonians is no longer restrained in the Tribulation, this allows the man of lawlessness to come forward. When the Lord comes back he is removed, and lawlessness ends. Has this actually happened? We see more lawlessness today then in any time from Jesus day.

What did not happen in 70 AD proves that Preterism is false.
According to Preterism there is no increasing apostasy as history progresses; instead, a Christianization of the world. The Great Apostasy would have had to have happened in the first century while the apostles were still alive building the church and completely end in 70 AD., while John continued to live.
1 Tim. 4:1: “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.” These are the same latter days mentioned in Micah 4:1 “Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established on the top of the mountains.” The difference is that 1 Tim. 4 precedes Micah 4.
It is unacceptable to hold that an apostasy was completed before 70 AD, when the church had just begun to increase and spread to other regions besides Israel. Neither do we see the house of the Lord established in Israel where it supposed to be for all nations to be part of. In Acts 2:17 Peter teaches that “the last days” began in their present time period but it does not end with 70 AD. It began with Pentecost and ends Jesus’ return, setting things in order as He exercises judgments and establishes his Messianic kingdom that will be the only government throughout the earth.
We see the very opposite of this taking place.
In the tribulation there are 144,000 Jews anointed for their tribulation ministry.
The 144,000 Jewish evangelists come from every tribe (has never happened the way it is described) neither did the result of their preaching: Rev. 7:9-10 “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" V.13 -14 “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Notice that they are saved from ALL NATIONS, (not just the Roman province). Jews never went out during the Roman armies invasion and saved an innumerable amount of people.
Understand; because there are some similarities in events does not mean a prophecy was fulfilled. But there are no events that fit these Scriptures. For example lets say Mary was with Child but the child was not born in Bethlehem but in some other city, could this prophecy then be fulfilled? No, because it has to contain all the elements necessary to point to it and say “this has been completed.” Lets say a man named Jesus did miracles in Israel but never went to the cross, died or resurrected, would he be the same Jesus in Scripture, would he be have fulfilled the prophecies, no!

Peace treaty
It is Israel’s signing of a peace treaty that commences the tribulation. Of course Preterists have to change this obvious scripture to have an alternate meaning to add another brick in the wall to build their argument. Some say that Daniel 9 refers to Jesus’ covenant which is a terrible interpretation.
Dan. 9:27 “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” The word for covenant is beriyth, which is the same Hebrew word for covenant elsewhere. The word end, or desist is shabat, which we all can recognize as the word for rest or desist, to stop from working. Notice he confirmed the covenant then stops it form the time period it is supposed to last. Again similar phrases do not always have the same meaning.
Why are all the nations partnering to bring Israel to sign a peace treaty today? Peace summits are continually taking place, but this all means nothing to a Preterist who has made up their mind.
The whole world is wanting to see this peace treaty made, the bible says 1Thess. 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.”
Were the roman armies a thief in the night? This sudden destruction is that they enter the tribulation period which no one will escape. This is why Jesus in the parable of the fig tree says for us to watch and pray (Luke 21:35-36)
The world will see this covenant as the means to bring an end to war and have safety in the Middle East, but it will instead bring the worst nightmare to the world.

The rebuilt temple
In the year 68 A.D. the Roman armies began their assault on Jerusalem that lasted approx. two years. In the year 70 A.D. the Romans were finally able to breach the walls and the second temple was burned and destroyed. Many fled (the Christians), Israel was scattered and those who stayed were taken captive by Rome.
The Lord Jesus said: “And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” The destruction of Jerusalem that dispersed its inhabitants (Matt. 23:38, Luke 19:41-44; 21:20-24) did not end the times of the Gentiles but escalated it. Jerusalem has been under gentile control ever since, even in our modern day Israel captured Jerusalem and portions of their former land in war. Is all of Israel saved? Did Jerusalem stop being trampled by Gentiles? No - then Christ did not come as Preterists claim.
The building of the temple for the tribulation is given in Isaiah 66:1-6. This passage speaks of another temple which God does not endorse. God authorized both Solomon's Temple and the second temple that was rebuilt by Herod. This is the temple of the Great Tribulation period when Israel is regathered into its land, which the false messiah will desecrate with the ultimate blasphemy.
Isaiah 66 begins with a protest from God, who states that the temple Israel builds at this time is not acceptable, God will not come and reside in it (v. 1) as He resided in the former temple. What God requires is not a new house but faith in the Messiah (v. 2). He will not accept their sacrifices (v. 3) and the building of this temple. They are not listening to God's Word (v. 4 which points to Christ), they are to come to God by faith in Jesus Christ.
Daniel 9:27 speaks of a breaking of the covenant between Israel and the Antichrist (a political leader) in the middle of the tribulation. The result of the breaking of this lying covenant is that their sacrifices will cease; which results in what the bible calls the “abomination of desolation.” Jesus speaks of this event in Mt.24:15 telling those to flee immediately when this occurs. This has not occurred. Why did Jesus warn them to escape Jerusalem if he is to be judging them? All the judgments of God were literal, Noah, Sodom and Gommorah, Egypt so there is no rationale to change the judgments in Revelation as anything but literal.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [speaking of the Great Tribulation] will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, v.4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” NKJV
Preterists claim Nero is the antichrist. Hardly a suitable man for what the Bible describes as a false benevolent world dictator. Nero did not visit the city of Jerusalem. Nero was certainly a type of him to come but the events did not fulfill Bible prophecy as they we written. Nero blamed the great Roman fire of 64 A.D. on the Christians and initiated a major persecution, which certainly gave him this evil notoriety.
He did not sign a Covenant (of death Isa.28:14-22) that starts the Tribulation; seven years – known as the 70th week.
People did not flee Jerusalem because of him going into the temple declaring himself to be God - he did not walk into the temple after 3 ½ years of the covenant was signed (Dan.9:27) and declare himself God or have everyone worship his image or have it speak (2 Thess. 2:4). Again if prophecy is not completed the way it was written then it was not fulfilled. It never happened.
To a Preterist any apostate teacher or its religious system can be called ‘antichrist;’ they claim the word does not describe some individual dictator. REALLY?
John says there is a spirit of antichrist working (1 Jn.2:21; 4:1-4) and there were many antichrists that have come (1 John 2:15-18), even in his day but that there is one (singular) coming, called man of sin, the man of lawlessness. The Antichrist is a he, a single human being that will stand in a literal temple rebuilt in Israel that will call himself God and cause an abomination that makes desolate. It was not Herod’s temple that the antichrist declared himself to be God?
The abomination of desolation is the Antichrist taking over the worship of the Jewish temple by sitting down in the Holy place, declaring himself to be God. There is no seat in the holy place because priests had to stand to do their ministry. The antichrist is accompanied by signs, wonders and miracles, and exactly when did Nero do signs and wonders to deceive, to convince people to follow him? Even the elect? (2 Thess.2:9; Rev.13:14).
For one to claim Nero was the man of sin they must also concede the restraint was taken away and lawlessness abounded like Paul describes. The Bible says the lawless one, the Antichrist is ruling and is brought to an end by Christ’s coming. How did Nero die? Nero took his own life, he committed suicide, June 68 A.D. two years before 70 A.D. when Preterists say Christ came. Oops.
According to the majority of Preterists the antichrist was Nero. Was he destroyed by the word that came out of the Lords mouth at his coming to earth? Jesus destroys Him and all the armies when He comes again, it is to be bloodbath, unlike any other. Was Nero or Titus army destroyed by Jesus? There was no Armageddon, at least not the way the Bible describes it.​
This can hardly be a fulfillment of the Scripture 2 Thess. 2:8-9: “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.”
When Jesus comes he destroys the armies of the world and Satan’s man is the first casualty. When did this happen? Instead, the Preterist says that Jesus returned to judge Israel by the Roman army which is flat out absurd. Jesus did not ever say because of his coming Israel would be destroyed and none saved, he said the opposite because of his promises, his covenant to Israel. If her does not keep his covenant to them then those grafted into the covenant will also be rejected.
Not only does the time not match the 1260 days 3½ years but none of the descriptions are close. Even if one does not hold to a 70th week -the interpretation of days, it still does not match the Bibles description.
The False Prophet is to make an image of the Antichrist and stands it up in the Holy of Holies (Rev. 12:13-17; Dan.12:11), which begins the last half of the Tribulation.
Revelation 13 tells us the mark is the name of the beast, the number of his name and the number of a man, which equals six hundred and sixty six.
Many Preterists claim Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria equals 666…
C a e s a r N e r o
1 60 1 200 50 200 = 512
Nero’s number does not add up to 666 in Hebrew nor the Latin numerals made up long after, nor did Nero ever force everyone to have this number on their hand or forehead for commerce (to buy or sell). Nor were they tormented by demonic forces by taking this number. There is so much that Preterists have changed the Scripture on because of their prophetic system and yet they accept that Nero did this! Again an absurd claim by a flawed approach to Bible prophecy. Preterism is a theological abnormality.

The Abomination that makes desolation
Dan 9:27 “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate."
The one signs the covenant also stops it, Daniel gives us further details into this event.
Dan 11:31: “And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.”
Dan 12:11: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.”
Three times Daniel speaks of the sacrifices being ended and an abomination that makes desolate. And it is they who will be desolate. (The abomination is directly related to the daily sacrifices and they are directly related to the temple which can only be built in Jerusalem which is in Israel.
Jesus refers to Daniel "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.” (Matt 24:15-17)
They leave Jerusalem in the middle of the tribulation, not the end (Dan 9:27). So Preterism’s timing of 70 AD does not fit. Matthew 24:15 refers to Revelation 12; the woman, Israel, is fleeing to a place the Bible calls the wilderness. From passages such as Micah 2:12, this wilderness is in the land of Edom, the city of Petra. In 70 AD they fled to a different place then what the Bible says. They fled to Pela in 70 AD not to Petra (Bozrah) in southern Jordan.
Preterists point to Luke 21 as the absolute conclusion to prove their points, lets examine it carefully. "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written" (Luke 21:20-22 RSV)

Desolation Gr. eremosis - making desolate, a desolation. The same word can be used for different meanings and applications; context matters. Jesus often repeated the same statements more than once and applied it in different ways. Luke 21 is speaking of the desolation of the city by armies, Matthew 24 is speaking of the desolation of the holy place. It is a desecration. It is the abomination that has them flee. Though there are some similarities there are also some unique parts. The fact that Bible prophecy has repetitive patterns and similarities has to be taken into consideration. For example: Daniel 8:13-14 “Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?" And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.” This same subject of sacrifices and transgression of desolation is given to Daniel more than once, but they all do not apply to the same event in time. This took place by the Syrian ruler Antiochus in 167 BC. He took the Jewish temple and desecrated the temple by an unclean sacrifice (this is remembered as Channukah). It was literal and the next desecration would be just as literal.

Notice what Luke says in Lk.21:24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Jesus is speaking of the same city of his people he ministered in. I say this because many Preterists allegorize Jerusalem into a spiritual subject instead of the city it has always been.

Are the Gentile still trampling on Jerusalem? Of course. In 70 AD Jews nor Romans did not see what is said next:

v.27-28 “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

According to Preterists it would better read your destruction draws near. Coming with a cloud is referring to Jesus said He coming back the same way He left, (Acts 1:11) visibly, with glory and power and to save Israel, not destroy her. There is something repulsive that underlines the preterist viewpoint in their interpretation that is always applied to Israel’s rejection.

In 70 AD Israel is not saved (we will look at this in the 2nd coming and millennium.)

These following Scriptures from Daniel describe a different scenario, than what we have read in Daniel 8. Dan. 11:30-31 "For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage. So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.”

Dan. 12:11: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

These sacrifices are stopped in the middle of the tribulation which means they had to already be going on in the temple during the tribulation. Which means the Tribulation Temple was rebuilt during the first half of the tribulation, for It is in the middle of the tribulation he puts a stop to them. It is this sign of abomination that occurs inside the Temple that Jesus warns them to flee.

Mark 13:14: "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

If Jesus is to cause the desolation or is the desolation as some preterists have told me, ask yourself, why would he warn them to leave to be safe?

Pt. 2 The Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation
 
surada said:
Worldwide was just the Roman empire.

You are trying to read the Bible literally. It's didactic literature, not history... When you understand the symbolism you'll get it. Revelation was written to the 7 churches of the 1st century. They understood the symbolism.

What church taught you this "theology".
Click to expand...
surada said:
I'm Episcopalian. What's your problem? Are you embarrassed?
Click to expand...

Did Jesus come in 70 AD?​


Jesus told us that we cannot know the day of his return but we do know where He will return, and how He will return. These events that will surround His second coming are prophesied in both the Old and New Testament.


The Preterists position is that they know when and how he already returned - in 70 AD. Preterists teach that Jesus returned spiritually through the acts of the Roman army when they destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. According to the Bible the Millennium with Christ ruling would have commenced. So this has to be explained away.


How far from reality does one need to be to know they are wrong? The fact that the world has sustained sin and evil since 70 AD. Instead of it diminishing, it has reached a new zenith which does not fit at all into the description of the Millennium from the Bible. They (Preterists), are purposely being oblivious to reality and yet they have the gall to mock those who hold to a futurist view of prophecy. Go figure – selah.


If we were in the Millennium then common sense would dictate that America is a new Jerusalem and Christ is ruling from the white house; since we are the most powerful nation that has the most powerful office in the world; Israel is only a friend of America. Sounds backward? It should for those who know their Bible.


We can also know that those who claim He returned when in fact he did not are false prophets and teachers according to Jesus.


Matt 24:26-27: "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


In other words when it happens it will be immediate, quick. When He does come back to earth he removes men's governments to install His kingdom.


Jesus is not making special appearances to anyone on earth. The Jehovah Witnesses say he came in 1874 and in 1914 in a secret coming where only those with eyes to see knew. The Preterists are no different – they claim he came back to judge Israel (and the nations). But the Bible gives us numerous descriptions of what it will be like when He comes back, what He will do and where He will do it.


He said to the Pharisees:


Mark 14:61-62 “But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."


The question is - did Jesus mean the high priest will personally see him with those who were present?


The wording here does not imply a non physical coming but something that is apparent to all by the eyes. Clouds of heaven are often interpreted as his glory or by others as his angels, saints and his armies. Either way this did not take place. It’s obvious that he did not mean that high priest personally see him but those who are present when he comes. So the real point is how he returns.


We are told what the earth will be like when he returns;


Luke 21:26-27 "men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”


At the Mount of Olivet the angels said the way He left is the way He returns. Acts 1:9-11: “Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


He will come back the same way He left, visibly and furthermore to the same spot. Jesus tells us the way he will return. He was taken up in glory 1 Tim 3:16 “Received up in glory.”


Jesus taught that a certain generation (24:34) "shall see the Son of man coming” from heaven.


Mt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.”


This is "a sign from heaven," signs they asked to see throughout his ministry; instead Jesus said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah” (Mt. 12:39). This is the last sign He said he personally would give to his generation. The Messiah returning is himself "a sign," with great glory; for all see the sign in heaven. Yet Preterists claim this sign is seen to the same generation that denied him, the ones Jesus said that no other sign would be given.


Mt. 24:30-31: "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”


Luke 21:27-28 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."


Rev 1:7 “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”


Are we to believe that they saw him coming in glory 70 AD as the angels said he would in Acts 1:11. And how was this redemption for them (a rescue) if Israel was being judged and scattered? Did angels gather the elect then? Did the sign of the son of man appear in heaven? Why look up if you cannot see him come to rescue you? Words as “see” “every eye will see” are used to explain that people will see HIM, physically, just as they did when he was raised to heaven, as described in Acts 1:11. "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


gazing up Gr- emblepo-1) to turn one's eyes on 2) look at 3) metaphorically, to look at with the mind, to consider to look on, i.e. (relatively) to observe fixedly, or (absolutely) to discern clearly:


like manner Gr. tropos- 1) a manner, a way, a fashion, as, even as, like as


2) manner of life, character, deportment


as you saw Gr- theaomai- 1) to behold, to look upon, to view attentively, to contemplate (often used of public shows); used of important persons that are looked on with admiration 2) to view, to take a view of in the sense of visiting, meeting with a person


3) to learn by looking, to see with the eyes, to perceive.


EX: Matt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me."


I Jn. 3:2 “but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”


Mt. 24:30 " and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”


Mt. 23:39: "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"





Luke 13:35: "See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"


Notice how he says this, your house is desolate then he will not be seen until they call upon him. In other words they will be scattered first, then , sometime in the future they repent and call upon Him. Did Israel call on the Lord in 70 AD with the Roman armies surrounding them? NO. The Preterist says they didn’t see him. That would mean he didn’t come as he said he would.


The Bible teaches that before Israel can receive the cleansing of her sin, before Christ will return to establish His Kingdom. The nation Israel must first look to the One whom they have pierced and plead for His return. When this is done they will they receive their cleansing. The cleansing of Israel’s sin is connected to the Second Coming. The one condition – they must repent and call on him.


Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns


for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.


Israel is to plead for their Messiah to return, “to mourn for him as one mourns for an only son.


Israel must confess her national sin of unbelief; this is what is meant when he said they must say 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord secondly.


Matt 24:30: "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn”


Rev 1:7 “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” Who mourned in 70 Ad? Not the Romans, not anyone. So ALL the tribes of the earth did not mourn. But according to Preterism the Jewish people mourned. How did he come with great power? Through the Roman Armies that destroyed Jerusalem! Hardly fulfilling these prophecies according to the way they were written.


When he comes again it is what is known as Armegeddon. It will change EVERYTHING.


Isa 63:1-3 “Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?--" I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."


Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes.”


This describes him rescuing Israel who has called upon him.


Rev 19:19-21 “And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. So as we can see it is not the roman armies God uses in armegeddon by the Messiah all by Himself.” Was the beast Nero, he was not captured as he died a few years before 70 AD.


Zech. 14:2-5: “For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, for the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.”


All nations are gathered, not nation - singular (Rome), this is what is known as Armageddon. It is the Lords return that vanquishes the nations that have come out to fight him. Does the Scripture say the Lord fights against the nations coming against Israel or he fights against Israel with the Pagan Roman armies? Did his feet touch down on the Mount of Olives and split it? When Christ descends to the Mount of Olives there is to be a great earthquake, and the way will be opened up east to west and there will be a waterway through to the Persian Gulf. Jerusalem will become a seaport, with its own waterway, and the size of Jerusalem will be significantly larger. The Temple will be about one mile square. Do we need to go into all the details the Bible describe to come to the conclusion that this did not happen and that Preterism has a completely different event.


1Thess. 5:2-3: “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.”


Did Israel say peace and safety surrounded by the armies or did they know invasion was inevitable? How then could the Roman armies introduce the Tribulation fulfilling it being as a thief in the night? None of this coincides with the other Scriptures that are part of this event.


Isa 34:1-10 “Come near, you nations, to hear; and heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world and all things that come forth from it. For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations, and His fury against all their armies; he has utterly destroyed them, he has given them over to the slaughter. Also their slain shall be thrown out; their stench shall rise from their corpses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; all their host shall fall down as the leaf falls from the vine, and as fruit falling from a fig tree. "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; indeed it shall come down on Edom, and on the people of My curse, for judgment.


The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made overflowing with fatness, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.The wild oxen shall come down with them, and the young bulls with the mighty bulls; their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust saturated with fatness."For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, the year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.


Does this sound like it took place? He is describing rescuing Israel not destroying her. This destruction will be left for a reminder to subsequent generations. Can anyone point to it?


At Armageddon every person will see him physically return in glory not in some secret way not seen. It tells us the sun will not give its light the moon will become red. Preterists change this literal description to symbolic to teach their flawed end times scenario that has taken place in the past.


The main reason- He, Jesus, comes to save Israel- to rescue them from annihilation during the tribulation. In fact his coming ends the tribulation!


Matt 24:22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.”


He slays the antichrist supernaturally at his coming. Daniel 9:27: “upon the wing of abominations shall come one that makes desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate. poured out upon the desolate. If it refers to “a desolator,” the Antichrist and to his destruction at the Second Coming.


2 Thess. 2:8 “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” If Nero is the one the Preterist have elected as the antichrist, then this Scripture did not occur this way. One would have to do spiritual gymnastics to make it fit. Christ comes when the antichrist is ruling the earth, not Rome. If this was Nero then there is a major problem, he committed suicide on June 9, 68, near Rome.


Did this happen? Rev. 11:15: “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


If this took place then everything prior to this took place, lets see if this is true or not.


The use of the title "Son of Man" refers to the (Parousia) Second Coming.’ The phrase, indicates His humanity, a visible, personal Coming is to take place, which was not seen at the destruction of Jerusalem.


Daniel 7:27: “Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” When the real kingdom comes Christ is present on earth and we serve him


Daniel 7:21-22: “I was watching; and the same horn (little horn) was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.”


Dan 7:13-14 "I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.”


The ancient of Days is the Father who gives Jesus the kingdom at this time with all people of the earth under his rule. One cannot attach this to 70 AD.


Jude 1:14-15 “Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,"to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."


He comes with the saints 1Thess. 3:13 “that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” There is no getting around this, Jesus returns with ALL, not some of the saints. These are those who are glorified received their resurrected bodies, are made without sin so they can co-reign with him. Saints will be immortal and reign with Christ. We rule over the nations not before Christ comes but afterwards when we are without sin. Why are there saints being slain and become martyrs today if this is his kingdom is ruling, if we are in the Millennium? This preterist prophetic point of view is Prevarication.


Part of the generation alive during the Tribulation Period (70th week of Daniel), will never pass away.


All the Tribulation saints who endured to the end (the completion of the age, Daniel’s 70th week) are physically saved and enter the Millennial Kingdom. They enter with their natural unglorified bodies. That generation of people living at the time will not die or pass away to live through the thousand years of Messiahs reign. Jesus comes back with saints who are glorified, because they have been resurrected.


The Lord Jesus Christ “will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom” (2 Timothy 4:1). As we can see from Scripture His kingdom comes accompanied with His physical appearing, they are simultaneous events, and it comes with judgment as well as a blessing (Matthew 25:31-34) he separates the sheep from the goats, only those who are saved will enter the Millennium that has commenced from his return.


Mt. 25:31-34: "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”
vv.:40-41 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”

Was the population judged as depicted in Mt.25? Was there a time when everyone was a believer on earth and went into the millennial reign. Was all of Israel saved? That is what the Bible says. But what the Bible describes and what Preterism describe are two different things.
Matt. 19:28: “And Jesus said to them, Verily I say unto you, That ye who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit down upon His throne of [kingdom] glory, ye also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging [ruling] the twelve tribes of Israel.”
 
ninja007

America isn't the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is spiritual.

Foreign soldiers from all over the Roman empire gathered at Megiddo to fight under Titus and Vespasian in 66 AD.

Do you think Jesus neglected the new Christians of the 1st century to address the people 2000 years later?
 
This is where we're at. These are "adult" men and women. And there are people on this board who say it is bigoted to not recognize and accept these demon possessed creatures

 
CarlinAnnArbor said:
This is where we're at. These are "adult" men and women. And there are people on this board who say it is bigoted to not recognize and accept these demon possessed creatures

Click to expand...


Do you actually believe in demons? Do you also believe that demons are the offspring of Adam and Lilith?
 
Meister said:
Read the Book of Revelation in the Bible.
There are certain ticks you can look for that are going on today.
Click to expand...

no, the bible hasn't what the heavens prefer, the triumph of good - when accomplished will be the true reason for their return and rejoice with those that remain.
 
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