When does life begin?

[PubliusInfinitum]

Pretty much.

I've never seen any credible evidence that this law is necessary. I don't believe there are women or doctors in any big numbers that would chose to abort in this manner just because someone decides she doesn't want to have a baby.

You don't need a law to say murder is illegal, it is already illegal.

Notice what this member is saying here... It's classic...

"First she doesn't believe that there are a large number of women choosing to abort their prenatal children beyond some arbitrary stage of development... thus she believes that there is no necessity for a law which would hold those women that ARE killing their well developed prenatal children...

So the issue is being argued, in effect, that it's really a matter of volume... NOT the VIOLATION OF THAT well developed prenatal child’s RIGHTS... it's simply a function of their being insufficient evidence as to the number of well developed prenatal children being murdered to institute a NEED for a law...

She then tries to clean that principle-less train-wreck up through the declaration that one doesn't need a law to declare murder illegal; noting that murder is already illegal.

Mercy... how enlightened; except the problem is that this very member has already declared that she feels that it is the RIGHT of the woman to kill her prenatal child. She's simply not sure at what level of human development a prenatal child should be arbitrarily deemed worthy of a right to their life...

Do you see the problem? Don't you see where this species of reasoning is a principle-less abyss of unbridled idiocy?

We're of course considering this members CERTAINTY that prenatal children in the first trimester of development do NOT have rights... but she's pretty sure that an embryo does rate a human right at some point, she just doesn't know at what that point is exactly; but she knows that there shouldn't be a law which holds a woman accountable for killing her prenatal child, because after all, murder is already illegal~

'It's all relative' folks... that is what she's saying here. If you put a sufficiently sad story of struggle and pain on it, this member would readily rationalize the killing of a post birth human child. Now how can I know this? Because in not a SINGLE post has this member taken a position which rests upon a single valid principle; she will move the threshold to accommodate any circumstance which tugs on an emotional heart string and at every point she will side with the powerful over the power-less; FOR: the mother who is 100%RESPONSIBLE for her CHOICE in engaging in the biological exercise which is designed for conception and AGAINST the innocent child who had no part in any decision the point where it's life is snuffed out as its is torn limb from limb to silence it because the Mother lost her nerve; because the woman CHOSE to kill a prenatal child SHE conceived through that decision (read: CHOICE) to engage in sexual intercourse and risk pregnancy... a decision, a CHOICE she makes at the expense of the innocent life of another human being... her own child.

It's depravity on a whole new level...

 

[Ravi]

I don't share your inability. I'm willing to acknowledge the possible existence of mitigating circumstance making the decision less reprehensible, but when one looks at the overall numbers, I stand by my "most cases," non-binding judgement.

It's all in the mitigating circumstances. If I can ever can put together a coherent statement on why I feel the way I do, I'll let you know.



But I support your right to be judgmental as long as you don't try to graft your personal judgments onto the law.

 

[manifold]

But I support your right to be judgmental as long as you don't try to graft your personal judgments onto the law.

You know I never do.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Biological fact of life--the choice of whether or not one is mentally or physically capable of bearing a child.

Now here is a twisted premise... first they confuse a biological fact with an intellectual CHOICE...

A biological fact looks like this: Sexual intercourse is the biological means by which humans are designed to procreate.

An Intellectual Choice looks like this: "I'm horny as a M'rF... but if I have sexual intercourse I could get pregnant and despite my asking my 'room-mate with benefits' (or what have you) to use a condom and to pull out... and despite my use of a diaphram and BC pills... I stand a pretty good chance of getting preggers... Hmmm... Me so HORNY.... "Hey Dick you got 2 minutes? Yeah, I wanna show ya somethin'..."

A decision to usurp th right of a human you conceive through your CHOICE to engage in activity which is designed to conceive a child is NOT a 'biological fact of nature."

 

[manifold]

It's all in the mitigating circumstances. If I can ever can put together a coherent statement on why I feel the way I do, I'll let you know.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[Ravi]

It's depravity on a whole new level...

So lock me away and force me to breed, retard.

You misrepresented almost everything I said. But since it's you, no big surprise.

 

[Ravi]

I won't hold my breath.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I don't share your inability. I'm willing to acknowledge the possible existence of mitigating circumstance making the decision less reprehensible, but when one looks at the overall numbers, I stand by my "most cases," non-binding judgement.




Point taken.

What responsibility would this member be speaking of?

There is no law which holds a woman accountable for her choice to take the life of her prenatal child.

 

[manifold]

IMO, that's by far the lamest emoticon here.

Just sayin...

 

[Ravi]

IMO, that's by far the lamest emoticon here.

Just sayin...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

So lock me away and force me to breed, retard.

You misrepresented almost everything I said. But since it's you, no big surprise.

What specifically have I misrepresented?

(Let the record reflect that this member will be wholly unable to post a single segment from a single piece which she has offered from which I have misrepresented anything which she has advanced... We can be sure that this is yet another example of a would-be 'centrist' speaking through a common language in such a way that it becomes impossible to decipher. They demand their human constitutionally protected right to speak, but as is always the case with fascists, they simply reject any form of accountability for that speech...

It's precisely the same basis on which they demand constitutional protections for a faux right to murder their inconvenient pre-natal progeny...)

 

[manifold]

What's that one called? Eusa_CarrotTop?

 

[Ravi]

:esua_rasta:

 

[Care4all]

I would like everyone's opinion on when they think a human life begins and why they hold that position.

Thank you all.

With Adam, (translated to the word 'MAN'), his life began when God gave him his FIRST BREATH.....God Breathed life in to him.

God formed Adam out of the dust in the earth, but even though formed LIFE was given him, when he took his first breath.

does this mean that the embryo/fetus is not a human being, no, not to me...but it does tell those that follow the Bible, something.....doesn't it?

But then we have other things in the Bible, (again, for those of us who follow it and not in any way to discredit the beliefs of others) that show us that life at least begins at quickening, because of the story of the pregnant Elizabeth with John the Baptist and Mary with Jesus in womb, where john the baptist leap for joy (he was kicking which means quickened) in the presense of Jesus in womb....

And there are situations in the Bible where comments are made to some of the elect... about knowing them BEFORE they were even born...? This must be their spirit or their living soul or their Mind and not necessarily their Matter (the human body or the Brain....)

Well, i guess i find it near impossible to really know for certain when life really begins as far as from what the Bible says, imho.....of course, I know others will differ with me who are Christians and others of their own Faith and i know those without faith will differ with me as well...

BUT SO WHAT, it is what i believe! and that was the question!!!! hahahahaha!

Care

 

[AllieBaba]

So lock me away and force me to breed, retard.

You misrepresented almost everything I said. But since it's you, no big surprise.

As opposed to child murder, which is your cure for the problem. Let the dumb bitches get pregnant, then just kill their kids.

 

[Ravi]

As opposed to child murder, which is your cure for the problem. Let the dumb bitches get pregnant, then just kill their kids.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

 

[manifold]

As opposed to child murder, which is your cure for the problem. Let the dumb bitches get pregnant, then just kill their kids.

Allie,

You should know better than to try to strawman the strawmaster Ravi. She'll spot that shit a mile away!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

With Adam, (translated to the word 'MAN'), his life began when God gave him his FIRST BREATH.....God Breathed life in to him.

God formed Adam out of the dust in the earth, but even though formed LIFE was given him, when he took his first breath.

does this mean that the embryo/fetus is not a human being, no, not to me...but it does tell those that follow the Bible, something.....doesn't it?

But then we have other things in the Bible, (again, for those of us who follow it and not in any way to discredit the beliefs of others) that show us that life at least begins at quickening, because of the story of the pregnant Elizabeth with John the Baptist and Mary with Jesus in womb, where john the baptist leap for joy (he was kicking which means quickened) in the presense of Jesus in womb....

And there are situations in the Bible where comments are made to some of the elect... about knowing them BEFORE they were even born...? This must be their spirit or their living soul or their Mind and not necessarily their Matter (the human body or the Brain....)

Well, i guess i find it near impossible to really know for certain when life really begins as far as from what the Bible says, imho.....of course, I know others will differ with me who are Christians and others of their own Faith and i know those without faith will differ with me as well...

BUT SO WHAT, it is what i believe! and that was the question!!!! hahahahaha!

Care

Yep... quickening was simply the point where the central nervous system had developed and the developing prenatal child was beginning to move within the mother's womb... this was a time for celebration because in those days once a child had developed to that stage it was very likely that it would survive through birth. A large percentage of babies died before they developed to that point... so such was a sign where the parents knew the child was alive and on its way.

Now as to whether or not this is 'when the prenatal child's life began'... The prenatal child's life began at its beginning; when it was conceived... it wasn't a liver which turned into a fetus, it was a human embryo whose life began at the beginning... just like everything else in the universe.

Now you may say 'it was human but it did not yet know it existed... so what's the harm in killing it? The harm is that its life had begun and you stole that life from it... yet you demand that others not steal your life from you, when you become a life altering pain in the ass. You might say that the difference is that you're already a sentient being, self aware and in full possession of your rights... but the fact remains that your right to YOUR life rests SOLELY on you living up to your responsibility to not strip others of their right to thier life and what's more that you DEFEND the rights of others to THEIR LIFE. That you're aware of your life is MEANINGLESS... a developing human embryo is a HUMAN LIFE and rightfully entitled to the life YOU CHOSE TO CONCEIVE WHEN YOU MADE THE CHOICE TO ENGAGE IN SEXUAL INERCOURSE.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well, you know something, another member started to utilize the Bible as a way to figure out the solution.

Not only is it referred to in the Bible, but also the Torah and the Tanach. (The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament).

An interesting thing......(and I've said this before), is that life doesn't necessarily begin at conception, nor (as someone said earlier), that a human is all the way down to the separate egg and sperm.

Now.....what happens is that your parents get together and start building a child (via fertilization). At that point, it is still just a mass of cells, not really capable of anything (yet). At some time (around 40 days), the nervous system begins to take shape. According to the Torah, G-d carves out a small piece of himself, and places it in the embryo's nervous system. If you're interested in checking this one out, go to Universal Torah Network, and check out the teachings on the yetzer harrah and the yetzer hartov. So, in essence, it ISN'T a "human" until the nervous system is formed. At that time, it is the BEGINNING of a human. But, like the previous poster pointed out, life didn't really begin until you took your first breath. What is that? Well, think of it like American Chopper. They build the bike, get it to where it looks like it will work, and then, fire it up. The first start up is where the bike is finally ready.

Should you be able to abort? Well......if it is within the first 40 days (prior to the nervous systems forming), then okay. After that, it gets sticky.

Now.....also think about this......G-d ISN'T going to talk to anyone in a manner that they are unable to understand. He may show them things that are pretty fantastic (read - OT prophets), but He always speaks to them in their language. Now.....if you know someone REALLY well, and a mutual friend comes up and says "guess what so and so said", and then tells you something that you think they would never say, you disbelieve them, no matter how much they tell you that it is true, but the fact is, it was still said or done. Now, since people are capable of making a mistake like that, who is to say that G-d didn't speak to someone? He does all the time, you just gotta NOT be blinded by your own preconceived notions of what is and isn't true, which is to say, try to stay open minded and let others do what they will, as long as they don't go against the Big 10.

It is simply amazing how much something like this can divide so many.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

... An interesting thing......(and I've said this before), is that life doesn't necessarily begin at conception, nor (as someone said earlier), that a human is all the way down to the separate egg and sperm.

Now.....what happens is that your parents get together and start building a child (via fertilization). At that point, it is still just a mass of cells, not really capable of anything (yet).

Yeppers... and its at that stage where HUMAN LIFE BEGINS.

The notions which seek to set an arbitrary point elsewhere are nothing more than rationalizations which are created for any number of purposes...

But human life begins at the beginning.... Just like everything else.