What's Wrong With Gay Marriage?

[Coloradomtnman]

This is a challenge for all those who oppose same-sex marriages and homosexuality.

If you believe homosexuality is wrong because of religious reasons, and you want to ban same-sex marriages because of your religious beliefs regarding homoesexuals, you want to violate the Bill or Rights, specifically the First Amendment:

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, Freedom of Religion, and of assembly; right to petition,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The government WILL NOT force Churches to marry homosexuals if same-sex marriage becomes legal because of that very same Amendment.

So, let's try another argument:

If you think that same-sex marriages extend special rights to homosexuals and that it isn't about equality:

Marriage Equality USA

Marriage offers 1,138 Federal benefits and responsibilities, not including hundreds more offered by every state.

The law provides certain automatic rights to a person's spouse regardless of whether or not a will exists.

If you follow the link the above there is much more.

Here's another link to an article about what married couples receive because of government recognition of their romantic commitment:

Marriage Rights and Benefits

This shows how same-sex couples do not receive the same level of rights as traditionally married couples do.

Well, what about children?

Protecting Children
A child who grows up with married parents benefits from the fact that his or her parents' relationship is recognized by law and receives legal protections.

Spouses are generally entitled to joint child custody and visitation upon divorce (and bear an obligation to pay child support).

The mark of a strong family and healthy children is having parents who are nurturing, caring, and loving. Parents should be judged on their ability to parent, not by their age, race, religion, gender, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity.

If you think that homosexuality is a mental disorder or sexual deviancy:

Answers to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.
[/QUOTE}

Here's what else the APA has to say on the subject:

APA Press Release: APA Supports Legalization of Same-Sex Civil Marriages

On Marriage Rights for Same-Sex Couples
The American Psychological Association Council of Representatives adopted this position statement on July 28, 2004:
“WHEREAS APA has a long-established policy to deplore "all public and private discrimination against gay men and lesbians" and urges "the repeal of all discriminatory legislation against lesbians and gay men" (Conger, 1975, p. 633);
“WHEREAS the APA adopted the Resolution on Legal Benefits for Same-Sex Couples in 1998 (Levant, 1998, pp. 665-666).
“WHEREAS Discrimination and prejudice based on sexual orientation detrimentally affects psychological, physical, social, and economic well-being (Badgett, 2001; Cochran, Sullivan, & Mays, 2003; Herek, Gillis, & Cogan, 1999; Meyer; 2003);
“WHEREAS ‘Anthropological research on households, kinship relationships, and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution’ (American Anthropological Association, 2004);
“WHEREAS Psychological research on relationships and couples provides no evidence to justify discrimination against same-sex couples (Kurdek, 2001, in press; Peplau & Beals, 2004; Peplau & Spalding, 2000);
“WHEREAS The institution of civil marriage confers a social status and important legal benefits, rights, and privileges;
“WHEREAS The United States General Accounting Office (2004) has identified over 1,000 federal statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining or receiving benefits, rights, and privileges, for example, those concerning taxation, federal loans, and dependent and survivor benefits (e.g., Social Security, military, and veterans);
“WHEREAS There are numerous state, local, and private sector laws and other provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining or receiving benefits, rights, and privileges, for example, those concerning taxation, health insurance, health care decision-making, property rights, pension and retirement benefits, and inheritance;
“WHEREAS Same-sex couples are denied equal access to civil marriage;
“WHEREAS Same-sex couples who enter into a civil union are denied equal access to all the benefits, rights, and privileges provided by federal law to married couples (United States General Accounting Office, 2004) ;
“WHEREAS The benefits, rights, and privileges associated with domestic partnerships are not universally available, are not equal to those associated with marriage, and are rarely portable;
“WHEREAS people who also experience discrimination based on age, race, ethnicity, disability, gender and gender identity, religion, and socioeconomic status may especially benefit from access to marriage for same-sex couples (Division 44/Committee on Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Concerns Joint Task Force on Guidelines for Psychotherapy with Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Clients, 2000);
“THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED That the APA believes that it is unfair and discriminatory to deny same-sex couples legal access to civil marriage and to all its attendant benefits, rights, and privileges;
“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That APA shall take a leadership role in opposing all discrimination in legal benefits, rights, and privileges against same-sex couples;
“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That APA encourages psychologists to act to eliminate all discrimination against same-sex couples in their practice, research, education and training ("Ethical Principles," 2002, p. 1063);
“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That the APA shall provide scientific and educational resources that inform public discussion and public policy development regarding sexual orientation and marriage and that assist its members, divisions, and affiliated state, provincial, and territorial psychological associations.”

Thanks to JBeukema for providing the above.

A majority vote to suppress the equality of a minority group in a democracy is called the tyranny of the majority. We do not live in a true democracy and the Founding Fathers instituted mechanisms to prevent such a circumstance arising - granted that it has in the past: slavery, women's suffrage, and the civil rights movement of the '50s and early '60s.

Tocqueville: Book I Chapter 15

John Stuart Mill's Essay On Liberty

Tyranny of the majority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tyranny of the majority: Definition from Answers.com

There is empirical evidence submitted to peer-reviewed journals which show a benefit for marriage equality in the United States.

University of California Press - Error

So, can you state without resorting to religion (and hypothetically violating the First Amendment) what is wrong with same-sex marriages and back it up with supporting evidence like I have done the previous arguments? That would be the only way to have a convincing argument or, at least an argument with any validity. The credibility of the organization used to support your evidence is open to interpretation, as well as the strength of the argument. So calling homosexuals perverts needs support stronger the American Psychological Association statement that homosexuality is indeed not a mental disorder and you must demonstrate why not allowing people with mental disorders to marry is justified. Saying that homosexuality harms society needs supporting evidence. Comparing homosexuals to criminals, pedophiles, rapists, needs good supporting evidence. And you must demonstrate how homosexual marriages will affect you. Etc.

Do you accept my challenge?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Nuthin', huh? Can anybody back up the arguments opposing gay marriage?

 

[Al Gunn]

What's wrong with gay marriage? The question should be: why is CMM so obsessed with rehashing the same debate over and over again?

(I bet you all know the answer!)

 

[sealybobo]

What's wrong with gay marriage? The question should be: why is CMM so obsessed with rehashing the same debate over and over again?

(I bet you all know the answer!)

I care too but I am not gay. Its just so clearly wrong to discriminate against these people. Give them whatever you get as a straight married person. ALL the same perks. Social security, pension sharing, insurance, hospital decisions, tax breaks, the works.

If Liza Manelli can marry a gay guy, a gay guy should also be able to marry a gay guy. What makes Liza special?

 

[strollingbones]

since most moral objections are based on the arguement that its "unnatural"....but who teaches them that...there is homosexuality in the animal world....etc and so on...if gays of age can marry then can anyone marry? sgt brought this up..how can you says gay can marry cause they are of consenting age then disapprove of incestous marriages if both people are of age. he is right if you allow one on those grounds you must allow the other....if consenting adults is the criteria..then it opens a lot of doors...more than just gay marriage

 

[Al Gunn]

gay marriage was invented to flush out the homo hating bigots.

 

[Smartt33]

This is an impossible topic to discuss if one cares for their position on the issue. There is no compromise. If SSM becomes legal, so be it. We who are believers in God's standard for marriage as one man with one woman cannot just throw the people out with what we believe is immoral behavior. Most believers don't hate gays. As a matter of fact, it is quite easy for most believers to love gays. The problem is that many gays see our position about gay sex as hating them as people. That is their problem, not ours.

I have some gay friends, and I love them as much as I love my other friends. We can talk openly about it because they know that I am not condemning them as persons. I also know that they are not condemning me for my belief on the issue. People can be reasonable.

I personally believe this is a far bigger issue than just about legalities of SSM. I belive it has a far reaching effect on society, but I am not allowed to say that without getting tons of "you hate gays" hateful comments. Truth is, those gays who believe Christians hate them, actually hate Christians.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's a contradiction. Like circular squares, feathered mammals, and other impossible things.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

It's a contradiction. Like circular squares, feathered mammals, and other impossible things.

I have read some very well put arguments and articulated points by you, Avatar, but this is not one of them. Can you support this argument with anything other than the Bible, if even with that?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Just how many times and for how long can a dead horse be beaten??? I think just about anything and everything about gay marriage that can be said has been said. Why not give this a rest and come back one day with something new to say? You're beginning to sound like BaltimoreBob and his rants concerning Viet Nam.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You can try to turn the "intolerance" around, Smartt, but it isn't homosexuals who are intolerant of Christianity, they're just intolerant of Christianity's intolerance of them. There isn't a gay manual which says that Christians are comdemned and are immoral. There is, on the other hand, a Christian manual which does condemn homosexuality.

Either way, you are resorting to your religion as basis for banning same-sex marriage and that infringes on the First Amendment. And that is, at least in this country, wrong.

 

[Al Gunn]

This is an impossible topic to discuss if one cares for their position on the issue. There is no compromise. If SSM becomes legal, so be it. We who are believers in God's standard for marriage as one man with one woman cannot just throw the people out with what we believe is immoral behavior. Most believers don't hate gays. As a matter of fact, it is quite easy for most believers to love gays. The problem is that many gays see our position about gay sex as hating them as people. That is their problem, not ours.

I have some gay friends, and I love them as much as I love my other friends. We can talk openly about it because they know that I am not condemning them as persons. I also know that they are not condemning me for my belief on the issue. People can be reasonable.

I personally believe this is a far bigger issue than just about legalities of SSM. I belive it has a far reaching effect on society, but I am not allowed to say that without getting tons of "you hate gays" hateful comments. Truth is, those gays who believe Christians hate them, actually hate Christians.

You're not condemming them? But you think they are going to hell if they don't stop playing "hide the sausage" with each other? And you don't want them getting married in your church?
I only hate that christians like you hate gays. IMO, jesus was most probably gay anyways, so the joke's on you homophobes.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Just how many times and for how long can a dead horse be beaten??? I think just about anything and everything about gay marriage that can be said has been said. Why not give this a rest and come back one day with something new to say? You're beginning to sound like BaltimoreBob and his rants concerning Viet Nam.

I understand that this subject has been brought up numerous times on USMB, but if you don't want to read the thread and post on it, then don't. Get over yourself. You don't run USMB. IF the "Marxist Godless Socialists" who currently hold power in this country institute laws which make Christians 2nd class citizens, and you don't stop talking about it, why don't I just tell you "Quit beating a dead horse and lets talk about someting else"?

I still have haven't received any sort of valid response to my challenge. BBD, do you have any argument besides religion to support your stance on same-sex marriage? No?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Coloradomtnman - A bit sensative today, eh? Why is it that if anybody questions the agenda of folks like you it tends to cause some sort of a rant that always leads to name calling and a pretty obvious show of your ignorance. You're a bore and you're boring everybody else except for those that buy into your nonsense. Get a life.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Coloradomtnman - A bit sensative today, eh?

Maybe; I've got an annoying headache that won't seem to go away.

Why is it that if anybody questions the agenda of folks like you it tends to cause some sort of a rant that always leads to name calling

What name calling?

and a pretty obvious show of your ignorance.

My ignorance of what? Where did I display my ignorance? Not to say that I know everything or even claim to, and there is much about which I am ignorant, but what exactly are you referring to?

You're a bore

Ohhhhh. THAT name calling. I see...

and you're boring everybody else except for those that buy into your nonsense. Get a life.

Well, if you're bored, go to a thread which interests you more. There, problem solved for ya. My argument is hardly nonsense considering its logic and supporting evidence. Where's yours? Don't have any? So whose nonsense have YOU bought into?

I have a life, thanks. If you look at the number of posts I've made over the course of the past 7 or 8 months, its not that high, especially when compared to most other members.

I wonder what happened to your civility? Rightwing reaction? Come on, BBD, you're not a religious reactionary are you?

 

[ST34]

I am an atheist but I am against Gay Marriages - not because marriage is sacred, marriage is only some sort of microsocial formation and isn't sacred at all - because it is indecorous and sick, and the normal society should protect itself against sicknesses; for that reason gay marriages shouldn't be legalized

about relation of medicine to homosexualism, from NYT:

"For 20 years after finding in 1952 that homosexuals were ''ill primarily in terms of society and of conformity with the prevailing social milieu,'' the psychiatric association included homosexuality in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, an official list of mental illnesses"

and they were right
do not be comic, homosexualism is an ordinary degeneration, and who does not comprehend it is really stupid
this is the same as discussion whether pedophilia is illness or 'normal' sexual orientation

if you can't understand how atheist can be against homosexualism, read it:
'democrats' and 'republicans'
you are able only to move within framework of stupid schemata as thoughtless sheeps (both ′democrats′ as and ′republicans&#8242

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I am an atheist but I am against Gay Marriages - not because marriage is sacred, marriage is only some sort of microsocial formation and isn't sacred at all - because it is indecorous and sick, and the normal society should protect itself against sicknesses; for that reason gay marriages shouldn't be legalized

about relation of medicine to homosexualism, from NYT:

"For 20 years after finding in 1952 that homosexuals were ''ill primarily in terms of society and of conformity with the prevailing social milieu,'' the psychiatric association included homosexuality in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, an official list of mental illnesses"

Those findings are old, even in your above quote the effectiveness of the findings are only to 1972, when the APA redefined its perception of homosexuality, and the new definition is stated in the OP.

and they were right
do not be comic, homosexualism is an ordinary degeneration, and who does not comprehend it is really stupid
this is the same as discussion whether pedophilia is illness or 'normal' sexual orientation

if you can't understand how atheist can be against homosexualism, read it:
'democrats' and 'republicans'
you are able only to move within framework of stupid schemata as thoughtless sheeps (both ′democrats′ as and ′republicans&#8242

Being an atheist doesn't preclude one from being a homophobe. Pedophilia occurs naturally, yet is considered a disorder because it causes harm both to the victim (obviously)and to the pedophile because to practice pedophilia is illegal and has practical and negative consequences and because the victim is not a consenting adult. If you researched pedophilia you'd also find that there is currently no treatment to "cure" a pedophile. But it isn't wrong to be a pedophile (although it sucks for those who are pedophiles) its only wrong to practice it. The difference between it and homosexuality is that homosexuality is between to consenting adults (or it is illegal and no different from pedophilia). It isn't illegal to be homosexual nor to practice homosexuality. And, therefore, it isn't wrong to be a homosexual. And if you think that homosexuals are "cured" think again:

Can Psychiatrists Really "Cure" Homosexuality?: Scientific American

This is even from Fox News:
FOXNews.com - British Therapists Still Offer Treatments to 'Cure' Homosexuality - Sex | Erectile Dysfunction | Sexual Health

Answers to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality

What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?

All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his samesex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to selfdetermination; be sensitive to the client’s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors.