CDZ What makes a good poster?

[Foxfyre]

As I see it, we each have 3 options to choose from when some asshat posts something that is, shall we say, less than respectful. Which does not necessarily mean a different opinion, one can offer an opposing viewpoint without being an asshat about it.

1. You can ignore it

2. You can answer back in kind (lower yourself to their level)

3. Or you can respond in an intelligent, responsible manner. Which ain't always easy when you or your post has been disrespected.

I go with option #1 often, most of the time you already know who the asshats are and I see no point in feeding the trolls. Once in awhile I roll with option #2 if I want to make a point, and if I'm feeling a bit feisty I might go after somebody who's really being outrageously asshatty, but usually my point is lost and I have merely wasted my time to no good effect.

Which leaves option #3, which I often strive to do. Sometimes I post something that is incorrect cuz I didn't bother to research anything first, and I am reminded that I am not infallible and all-knowing. I think a lesson every once in awhile in humility is not a bad thing IMHO. Many times I get an intelligent and responsible answer back, and sometimes it's from somebody who engages in asshattery. I think there's a lotta people around here who will give as good or better than they get, but probably would rather not get into an insult contest. Sooo, you can throw some mud back, ignore the SOB, or surprise the shit out of 'em with a mature, reasoned response.

I have adopted a strategy that I try to follow without always succeeding:

--Don't feel the trolls
--Don't argue with idiots
--Don't engage in other exercises of futility

So as I choose not to personally insult people as much as possible, that means I ignore some more often than not. But not is sometimes how it goes too.

All in all I believe being pleasant, non combative, respectful as much as possible, and being logical, reasoned, and informed more than not being informed is the best way to be a grown up. Not bearing false witness, not repeating gossip, not parroting assigned propaganda and talking points is the best way to be grown up and also have integrity.

Irrational hatred and contempt just doesn't fit into that very well.

I think too many people take insults to political figures, such as Trump or Obama as a personal insult and feel they must respond with insults and personal attacks on the poster. To me, that is irrational for two reasons. Personal attacks and insults will not change any opinions. Secondly, the public persona of most politicians is created by their campaign people, supporters, the opposition, and the news media. So it is the public persona that is being attacked, not necessary the actual person.

I think you may find most other forums the same way with personal attacks. It is not hard to do. This forum has people who say they "bait" other posters. Even that means nothing as back and forth rancor can be the norm anyway. I have been on this site since last Christmas. I have seen little of the agendas Trump supported by posters before the election. And of what I have seen it is glee of the agendas that have not been achieved. What is a sorry state for our nation is that most of them are not extreme. Just made to look so.

It isn't as bad here as on some message boards, but there is what I dub a 'gang of trolls' that show up pretty much on every pro-Trump thread and a lot of other issues threads. And they contribute nothing to the discussion other than canned talking points, insulting short factoids, etc., most of them unproven and/or downright fabricated, and the usual monotonous insults, all with the effect of starting a food fight or taking the thread entirely off course. Some work independently, but I sometimes think several must signal each other because they show up so predictably, as a group, to trash a thread. It has been suggested some are actually paid to do that? Possible I suppose.

These I would not rate as 'good posters' in any regard.

And there are those who scour RCP and the Drudge Report or whatever multi-media websites to latch on to every possible news story, pro or con, involving President Trump and/or his administration so they can start a thread with a negative headline and/or a negative slant in the OP. That ensures the thread is less likely to be used effectively for positive comments, and before somebody more objective can start a thread on the same subject.

These I would not rate as 'good posters' either.

For awhile it seemed any positive or objective threads would be merged with the negative ones to ensure nothing positive would come out of that discussion. That hasn't been a serious problem that I've seen recently though and I appreciate that.

To me the best posters mostly start threads on a specific topic or concept with a non judgmental thread title and a non judgmental OP that invite discussion from all different perspectives and without trying to dictate what the 'correct' opinion is supposed to be.

 

[Flopper]

I think too many people take insults to political figures, such as Trump or Obama as a personal insult and feel they must respond with insults and personal attacks on the poster.

I think that is more true of Obama supporters, who have a stronger emotional attachment. Trump supporters don't take these insults personally, they just think they are irrational and/or irrelevant.

P.S. Moral equivalency arguments are usually made by the greater offenders.

That may well be because so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner, a backroom brawler that will make America great again. So why should they be concerned when people attack the Trump's characteristics that they feel is needed to beat the opposition.

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

 

[Flopper]

As I see it, we each have 3 options to choose from when some asshat posts something that is, shall we say, less than respectful. Which does not necessarily mean a different opinion, one can offer an opposing viewpoint without being an asshat about it.

1. You can ignore it

2. You can answer back in kind (lower yourself to their level)

3. Or you can respond in an intelligent, responsible manner. Which ain't always easy when you or your post has been disrespected.

I go with option #1 often, most of the time you already know who the asshats are and I see no point in feeding the trolls. Once in awhile I roll with option #2 if I want to make a point, and if I'm feeling a bit feisty I might go after somebody who's really being outrageously asshatty, but usually my point is lost and I have merely wasted my time to no good effect.

Which leaves option #3, which I often strive to do. Sometimes I post something that is incorrect cuz I didn't bother to research anything first, and I am reminded that I am not infallible and all-knowing. I think a lesson every once in awhile in humility is not a bad thing IMHO. Many times I get an intelligent and responsible answer back, and sometimes it's from somebody who engages in asshattery. I think there's a lotta people around here who will give as good or better than they get, but probably would rather not get into an insult contest. Sooo, you can throw some mud back, ignore the SOB, or surprise the shit out of 'em with a mature, reasoned response.

I have adopted a strategy that I try to follow without always succeeding:

--Don't feel the trolls
--Don't argue with idiots
--Don't engage in other exercises of futility

So as I choose not to personally insult people as much as possible, that means I ignore some more often than not. But not is sometimes how it goes too.

All in all I believe being pleasant, non combative, respectful as much as possible, and being logical, reasoned, and informed more than not being informed is the best way to be a grown up. Not bearing false witness, not repeating gossip, not parroting assigned propaganda and talking points is the best way to be grown up and also have integrity.

Irrational hatred and contempt just doesn't fit into that very well.

I think too many people take insults to political figures, such as Trump or Obama as a personal insult and feel they must respond with insults and personal attacks on the poster. To me, that is irrational for two reasons. Personal attacks and insults will not change any opinions. Secondly, the public persona of most politicians is created by their campaign people, supporters, the opposition, and the news media. So it is the public persona that is being attacked, not necessary the actual person.

I think you may find most other forums the same way with personal attacks. It is not hard to do. This forum has people who say they "bait" other posters. Even that means nothing as back and forth rancor can be the norm anyway. I have been on this site since last Christmas. I have seen little of the agendas Trump supported by posters before the election. And of what I have seen it is glee of the agendas that have not been achieved. What is a sorry state for our nation is that most of them are not extreme. Just made to look so.

It isn't as bad here as on some message boards, but there is what I dub a 'gang of trolls' that show up pretty much on every pro-Trump thread and a lot of other issues threads. And they contribute nothing to the discussion other than canned talking points, insulting short factoids, etc., most of them unproven and/or downright fabricated, and the usual monotonous insults, all with the effect of starting a food fight or taking the thread entirely off course. Some work independently, but I sometimes think several must signal each other because they show up so predictably, as a group, to trash a thread. It has been suggested some are actually paid to do that? Possible I suppose.

These I would not rate as 'good posters' in any regard.

And there are those who scour RCP and the Drudge Report or whatever multi-media websites to latch on to every possible news story, pro or con, involving President Trump and/or his administration so they can start a thread with a negative headline and/or a negative slant in the OP. That ensures the thread is less likely to be used effectively for positive comments, and before somebody more objective can start a thread on the same subject.

These I would not rate as 'good posters' either.

For awhile it seemed any positive or objective threads would be merged with the negative ones to ensure nothing positive would come out of that discussion. That hasn't been a serious problem that I've seen recently though and I appreciate that.

To me the best posters mostly start threads on a specific topic or concept with a non judgmental thread title and a non judgmental OP that invite discussion from all different perspectives and without trying to dictate what the 'correct' opinion is supposed to be.

These so called news websites create news stories for the sole purpose of generating hits since that's what determines the advertising revenue. Typically, the more outrageous the story, the more hits. I've spent many hours debunking these stories which is usually pretty easy. All you have to do is followup on references and links and eventually you'll blow the story apart. However, it is just about a total waste of time. No one really cares if it's true or not. That becomes incidental to the argument.

 

[flacaltenn]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Some can most can't or won't and when you are dealing with trolls and hyper-partisans trying just seems like a waste of time and energy.

I saw a video not long ago about a study done on techniques of getting the opposition to agree with you. You would think that the best way is to present facts that show that their beliefs are incorrect and yours are correct. However, that does not work. Facts rarely shake strongly held beliefs because the opposition will not listen to you much less think about what you presenting. You never attack the person because that generally ends any usefully discussion.

The most effective techniques are based on compromise. Instead of attacking a person's beliefs, you establish a dialog on which you and your opponent can agree. In other words, you do exactly the opposite of what most people do on USMB.

What a great idea! Find a small concept in the controversy that they would agree to and find a commonality so that both become comfortable in the discussion. Then gently start with "I see your point, it;s making me think, but what about and then bring up another trivial matter that the other person could compromise with. Perhaps both could start thinking where they could compromise. Thank you for your post!

There was a pastor on the board of a start-up tech company I worked at during Grad school.. He told a group of us to "say what you LIKE about someone's opinion first -- or keep thinking until you can" ... It's a similar idea...

But that had to do with opinions on what works in engineering and what doesn't... Where all this good coaching fails is when too many Americans just are ignorant of "how things work".. Basic ignorance about the economy or taxes or religion or government or law.. And it's not really your job to do remedial education on any of that.

Best you can do is make them consider that MAYBE instead of brawling over political control, --- they really OUGHT to read the "USA Owner Manual" first.. And all the fine print...

No one reads the manual anymore... It's all poke and peck learning...

Poke and peck and copy and paste. So few can actually formulate a coherent statement of what they believe about much of anything. Too many say something snarky or insulting and then maybe post a bunch of links or a wall of text copied from something that might or might have anything to do with what they think they are arguing. But they couldn't put anything other than just mostly assigned insults/talking points into their own words if they had to. They honestly don't know what they are talking about.

And for people who have read the 'owner manual', that gets really really boring really fast.

Worse if they just avoid learning anything about current events and rely on fact checkers.. Oh well..

And BTW, folks that READ the manuals -- their stuff last longer and they enjoy happier lives. Socialists would do well to find out things work before they end the nation that they were given...

 

[yidnar]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

titties make a good poster ...

 

[Foxfyre]

I think too many people take insults to political figures, such as Trump or Obama as a personal insult and feel they must respond with insults and personal attacks on the poster.

I think that is more true of Obama supporters, who have a stronger emotional attachment. Trump supporters don't take these insults personally, they just think they are irrational and/or irrelevant.

P.S. Moral equivalency arguments are usually made by the greater offenders.

That may well be because so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner, a backroom brawler that will make America great again. So why should they be concerned when people attack the Trump's characteristics that they feel is needed to beat the opposition.

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.

 

[jwoodie]

what really get's me is people that have the writing skills to advance good arguments but prefer to make sly and petty verbal attack against the poster. I'm sure you've seen a number of these posts

Like this?

so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner

 

[Toro]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

99.99% of the posters upstairs cannot.

They’re mostly partisan drone cheerleaders.

That’s why I hang in the Flame Zone.

 

[Flopper]

I think too many people take insults to political figures, such as Trump or Obama as a personal insult and feel they must respond with insults and personal attacks on the poster.

I think that is more true of Obama supporters, who have a stronger emotional attachment. Trump supporters don't take these insults personally, they just think they are irrational and/or irrelevant.

P.S. Moral equivalency arguments are usually made by the greater offenders.

That may well be because so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner, a backroom brawler that will make America great again. So why should they be concerned when people attack the Trump's characteristics that they feel is needed to beat the opposition.

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.

I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think that is more true of Obama supporters, who have a stronger emotional attachment. Trump supporters don't take these insults personally, they just think they are irrational and/or irrelevant.

P.S. Moral equivalency arguments are usually made by the greater offenders.

That may well be because so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner, a backroom brawler that will make America great again. So why should they be concerned when people attack the Trump's characteristics that they feel is needed to beat the opposition.

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.

I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.

 

[Andylusion]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

 

[Jackson]

That may well be because so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner, a backroom brawler that will make America great again. So why should they be concerned when people attack the Trump's characteristics that they feel is needed to beat the opposition.

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.

I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.

Show me a politician that doesn't lie and I'll show you a politician with duct tape on his mouth.

Due to affairs of the heart or gonads, there will be falsehoods in most anyone's life when trying to "recall" any "situations" years ago.

Just as I think that Clinton was a fool when it came to "the blue dress," youcan't take away that he wasn't a decent president.

Trump does not have an extensive vocabulary, his tweets are sometimes obnoxious but he truly is the first president I can recall that thought about the country before his party, personal finances or his legacy. He has accomplished more in two years than most do in eight. He isn't polished, a great orator or folksy. But, I am voting for him in the next election.

 

[Jackson]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

 

[Andylusion]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

You showing them respect, just makes them stomp on you more. Just call them out for the immoral garbage they are, and move on to better people.

 

[Jackson]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

You showing them respect, just makes them stomp on you more. Just call them out for the immoral garbage they are, and move on to better people.

If after you show them respect, then lower the boom by supporting facts and links and show them to be the ignoramuses they are.

 

[Flopper]

That may well be because so many Trump supporters see his lying, incivility, recklessness, racism, and immorality as the characteristics of a winner, a backroom brawler that will make America great again. So why should they be concerned when people attack the Trump's characteristics that they feel is needed to beat the opposition.

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.

I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.

So lies are ok, provided it's about something that doesn't matter, at least to you. I got news for you. Everything a president says matters to someone.

Trump contradicts documented fact and then disregards anyone who points out the inaccuracies. He even lies when he has no discernible reason to do so  and then turns around and tells another lie that flies in the face of the previous one. These little, pointless lies provide cover for the big, important ones. Who bothers to read about Trump lies today? His supporters like you just assume it's of no importance and fake news. His adversaries have long ago accepted the fact he's a chronic liar.

What's really interesting is through irony, evasion, self-contradiction, and obviously ridiculous claims, he let his supporters in on the joke. If everything is a lie, then the man who makes his lies obvious is practicing a peculiar form of honesty.

 

[Foxfyre]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

Flopper up there for instance is no right winger and he has little or no respect for President Trump and doesn't have a clue why any of us with any integrity can support the President. But he provides reasoned arguments and it is rare that he becomes personally insulting to anybody in a discussion. And he does not deliberately misquote me or mischaracterize the point I am making or presume to put thought, ideas, wants, hopes, words in my head or mouth. I don't agree with him on much when it comes to conservatism and especially the President. But I can fully respect him and appreciate his input.

I would cherish having him as a dinner companion or meeting him in pretty much any other setting because we could easily be friends. And he is a good poster.

 

[Foxfyre]

That isn't it. First we don't see him lying in the same regard as the anti-Trump people do. Yes he probably stretches the truth or denies something that maybe he knows is true--only he knows the truth about that however--and sometimes his tweets or extemporaneous comments can be positively cringeworthy. He does engage in hyperbole and sometimes speaks in half expressed thoughts that can be misinterpreted. But we don't see him as uncivil. Unlike the groomed, polished, poll tested, and scripted professional politicians, his M.O. is to hit back when somebody hits. He has always done that and he will probably continue to do that whether or not it is politically expedient. But I've never seen him pick a fight or be uncivil to a single person who wasn't first pretty hateful to him. As many criticize and/or condemn him for being civil to the 'wrong' people as criticize him for being uncivil to others.

As for his immorality, I have seen none of that in President Trump in the conduct of his duties. Whatever his past history or whatever has been said of him or whatever he has been accused of, I think was vetted during the campaign and his supporters didn't think that was in any way worse than what we knew of Hillary's immorality or tolerance of it. And we made the decision that what somebody did ten, fifteen, twenty or more years ago was irrelevant to the relationship we have now with our President or the relationship he has with his current family, friends, associates.

President Trump has demonstrated more courage, more tenacity, more creativity, and more determination to actually keep his specific campaign promises, all intended to fix what was broken, than any President in my now quite lengthy lifetime. And he has done so in the face of the most angry, hateful, malicious, dishonest opposition I have ever witnessed launched against anybody. In that regard he has not disappointed. And, unless something significantly changes, I'm pretty sure most if not all of us grade him as having earned a second term.

Obviously, I disagree with much of your post but I don't really have time to address all your points.

Let me make just one point. You seem to be downplaying his "misstatements", exaggerations, and boldface lies as trivial. If this was a rare occurrence, I would agree with you but as you well know it is not. Hardly a day goes by that the president is not lying.
Although you see this as unimportant it certainly is not for several reasons.

First, he includes his staff in his lies. For example when the issue of him paying off the women he had affairs with came to light and he lied about it, he tolls his communication director to handle it when she knows it's a lie.

According to the Mueller Report Trump tried to get his intelligence chiefs to say publicly that he had no connection to Russia. Trump then tried to get Mueller fired as special counsel. Then, when the incident was reported in the press, he tried to get his staff to lie about it.

Second, Trump's lies has infuriated the news media to a point that they lie almost as much as Trump does. Mainstream media pull his quotes out of context and misrepresents his statements and Trump responds branding them as False News. In support of the president, right wing media jumps in with their own lies and misrepresentations.

A leader who habitually lies invariable begin to believe his lies and thus creates a false reality. Not a good situation when that leader has his finger on a button that can destroy the world.

"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions."
THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 19, 1785

Mueller uncovered all these times Trump asked people to lie for him
Lying Quotes

There was so much bias and deliberate innuendo in Mueller's report I don't trust much of what he says about much of anything. The only thing I trust is that if he and his team of hyper partisan, hate-Trump Democrat operatives couldn't find anything to hang the President with, there is nothing there.

And while I certainly believe all politicians probably tell a lie now and then, I simply don't buy the propaganda and out of context interpretation and spin put on the President's remarks, statements, etc. that the most angry and spiteful left puts on them. There have been so many lies told about the President and repeated ad nauseum in this and other mediums that its hard to pick out any truths that might exist in the midst of them.

Certainly President Trump has never looked straight at me through the camera and declared that "I never had sexual relations with that woman. . ."

President Trump has never gone before the camera time and time and time again saying uncategorically and without any qualification that if I like the healthplan I have now, I can keep my healthplan period; if I like my doctor I can keep my doctor period" which for millions of people was a bald faced lie. And if that wasn't on purpose, then his incompetence makes it even worse.

President Trump has never gone before the camera and sent his Secretary of State and U.N. ambassador out to say again and again and again on national television that the attack on the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi--an attack resulting in the death of four Americans with injuries to many others--was a spontaneous protest triggered by an offensive video mocking the Islamic faith. Another deliberate bald faced lie because they knew better at the time.

President Trump has never been caught on camera and a hot mic whispering to the Russian President asking for more time particularly with missile defense as he would have more flexibility after his upcoming next and last election. Medvedev nods and says he will transmit that to Putin. Obama pats him reassuringly on the hand. Now maybe that didn't infer that he was telling we the people and Congress one thing while his intentions were something else. But it is a hard sell to see it any other way. I count that as evidence of intention to lie, a deliberate deception.

Those are lies I care about--lies that are an offense to the Institutions of government, that affect the American trust, that matter.

If the President has lied about his personal life, so be it. But I don't know that he has. You don't know that he has. All we have are a few pretty seedy and questionable characters saying that he did in an attempt to save their own skins. All we have is anti-Trump leftists, media, Democrats, etc. saying that he did. Pretty much everything else is open to interpretation as to what he actually meant. And I give everybody--President Trump, Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, everybody--benefit of the doubt when the intention of what they meant is not clear. I don't count the obvious occasional misspeak, misstatement of fact, hyperbole, or impulsive spoken thought as lies no matter who it is.

President Trump hasn't misled, broken faith with, or lied to we the people or misled us re his intentions in anything that matters. And he has kept campaign promises like no President in my lifetime has kept campaign promises and has taken personal risks like no President in my lifetime other than perhaps JFK.

He's no saint. No perfect, polished, poll tested, scripted professional, politically correct politician. No partisan. No ideologue. Sometimes he is petty, petulant, cringeworthy, infuriating. He has had missteps and mistakes and will probably make a lot more before he is done. Would I like him personally? I don't know. He isn't really my type. I don't know if I would enjoy him as a dinner companion.

But I believe with all my heart that he honestly wants to do good things for America and Americans and is putting himself out there and giving his all to accomplish them. Unless something seriously changes, he has earned my vote in 2020.

I find it hard to believe that you are defending Donald Trump's lying and trying to justify it with Clinton lies.

I have a number of friends that are republicans and they all support Trump. The ones I find most creditable are those that admit he is a chronic liar, immoral, and a hothead yet still able to get things done like putting conservatives on the Supreme Court, passing a tax bill with a huge rate cut for corporations, building a wall even thou congress refused to fund it, and convincing his most ardent supporters that he's making America white again when he's deporting less people than Obama.

It will be interesting to see what kind of presidents follows Trump provided he doesn't declared himself emperor.

I am not justifying his lying if he lies. I just don't see that he has lied to us the American people, at least about anything concerning his job, the country, or us. Clinton and Obama blatantly lied to us when they were at work, on the job. I don't think Trump has done so at least about anything that matters in any way.

So lies are ok, provided it's about something that doesn't matter, at least to you. I got news for you. Everything a president says matters to someone.

Trump contradicts documented fact and then disregards anyone who points out the inaccuracies. He even lies when he has no discernible reason to do so  and then turns around and tells another lie that flies in the face of the previous one. These little, pointless lies provide cover for the big, important ones. Who bothers to read about Trump lies today? His supporters like you just assume it's of no importance and fake news. His adversaries have long ago accepted the fact he is chronic liar.

What's really interesting is through irony, evasion, self-contradiction, and obviously ridiculous claims, he let his supporters in on the joke. If everything is a lie, then the man who makes his lies obvious is practicing a peculiar form of honesty.

Hey, I just bragged on you for not saying things like "So lies are ok provided. . . ." I didn't say that. And for not saying things like "His supporters like you just assume. . . . " His supporters like me don't do that either.

But I, and I think many others, simply don't characterize what he says as lies in the same way the anti-Trump people do. We abhor dishonesty, most especially dishonesty that does affect America and Americans, as much as you do. But I gave you examples of what that looks like with Clinton and Obama. I have not seen President Trump do anything even remotely close to that.

Weighing his flaws and weaknesses against his accomplishments and strengths, President Trump has not earned my vote because he is conservative or is the quintessential Republican. He isn't either of those things. He has earned my vote because he has kept the trust with the American people in a way that Clinton and Obama did not. And because keeping that faith has produced some very good results.

I don't expect you to appreciate that or necessarily even understand it. But nitpicking everything he says or infers or suggests as a 'lie' or twisting it into a 'lie' is just not in my M.O. with anybody. Including Clinton or Obama or anybody else that I would oppose in an election.

 

[Flopper]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

Flopper up there for instance is no right winger and he has little or no respect for President Trump and doesn't have a clue why any of us with any integrity can support the President. But he provides reasoned arguments and it is rare that he becomes personally insulting to anybody in a discussion. And he does not deliberately misquote me or mischaracterize the point I am making or presume to put thought, ideas, wants, hopes, words in my head or mouth. I don't agree with him on much when it comes to conservatism and especially the President. But I can fully respect him and appreciate his input.

I would cherish having him as a dinner companion or meeting him in pretty much any other setting because we could easily be friends. And he is a good poster.

Did you mean to send this post to me? If so I don't understand your central point.

"up there for instance is no right winger"????

 

[Foxfyre]

I was watching something on tv and there was a bit on that if one wants to effectively talk to others, usually about politics, do it without the emotions. I thought about that for a minute and that really makes sense. If you can discuss any subject (Especially politics and religion) by inserting facts and discussions of observations, do it without anger and name calling.

Can posters here manage to discuss based on facts without being emotional, playing the victim and just basically losing it?

In other words can posters be the adults in the room?

Yeah sure. I've had numerous discussion with people being honest and open with what they believe, and talking through issue in a decent manor.

What you'll find though is that if you are like me, you'll see that some people want to discuss an issue, while most want to just scream about it.

Most of the people I run into on the left, and some the right wing as well, have no interest in discussing anything. They do not want to talk about it... they just want to scream about stuff.

And at some point you have to just admit that the person you are talking to is a pile of trash.
Let me give you an example.

Tax breaks for the rich. Every single time they do research on the history of tax rates, they find that the higher the tax rate.... the less the rich pay in taxes. In fact Calvin Coolidge said this openly, that his whole point in lowering tax rates, was to get the rich to pay more tax.

And it's statistical fact, that super high tax rates, resulted in the highest income earnings paying a smaller share of the tax burden. And lower tax rates resulted in high income earners paying a higher share of the tax burden.

These are all statistical, historical facts.

Yet if I go into any thread that discuss tax rates, and tax hikes, and tax cuts.... I will have a dozen left-wing people screaming at me that I'm a pawn of the wealthy, and a tool of the elite, and somehow I'm racists, and I'll have idiots on here saying "Why do rich people need another billion dollar!", and other emotion based, scream fest, garbage arguments, not based on fact, reason, logic, or intelligence.

And after you deal with that for a couple of years as I have, you learn to just call those people out for what they are... disgusting trash. You just call them out, and move on.

I know I'm right. I know they are garbage. And calling them out for what they are, is the best possible end to that argument.

Now I promise you, and anyone else here... if you discuss things rationally with me, I'll discuss them rationally with you. I'll calmly explain why I believe what I believe, and we can just talk it out.

What you say is true. And if we want to be respected, we have to show respect for my opponent. Theres a couple liberals I can discuss issues with and look forward to it. But you are so right that with many, they are so butt hurt that respect won't do any good.

Flopper up there for instance is no right winger and he has little or no respect for President Trump and doesn't have a clue why any of us with any integrity can support the President. But he provides reasoned arguments and it is rare that he becomes personally insulting to anybody in a discussion. And he does not deliberately misquote me or mischaracterize the point I am making or presume to put thought, ideas, wants, hopes, words in my head or mouth. I don't agree with him on much when it comes to conservatism and especially the President. But I can fully respect him and appreciate his input.

I would cherish having him as a dinner companion or meeting him in pretty much any other setting because we could easily be friends. And he is a good poster.

Did you mean to send this post to me? If so I don't understand your central point.

"up there for instance is no right winger"????

It was a post to Jackson. I mentioned you however because I thought you might appreciate it so that's why you got a notice about it.