What is the goal of capitalism?

[Captain Caveman]

wrong again

property rights are protected by the government not granted,, theres no such right as a right to safety,, life and liberty are protected by government not granted,,
free market is what it is,, all government can do is restrict it,,

again youre wrong,, government regulations are the opposite of a free market system,,,

you should stop reading marx and get up to speed,, you sound like the typical college de-educated useful idiot,,

In the grand scheme of life, there's no such thing as rights. It's a fallacy.

A guy claims they have the right to life, I shoot him dead. He now needs to lecture me on how his right to life is working out for him.

 

[Mexicano]

To me, "freedom" means free to choose. It is the voluntary choice to buy or sell at a given or negotiated price, otherwise it ain't capitalism. As far as human trafficking is concerned, the people being bought and sold is obviously not capitalism since they were not given a choice. It is slavery under a different name, and there is nothing voluntary about that.

Ok, so as I understand it the goal you portray is "freedom of exchange".
But as I said, that would be the ideal of capitalism.
For centuries capitalism co-existed with slavery (in fact ending slavery met with fierce opposition in many parts of the world).
There are many aspects of that exchange freedom which are subject to debate.
Should it include the liberty to employ labor from abroad?
Should it include the liberty to move abroad to search for the best employer?
Or should such freedom be restricted to the free movement of capital and gods?

To me capitalism should be reduced to a sort of "game" a game we play to be more productive and efficient. But that said , as in all games it should not be allowed to turn into a life or death situation for anyone, the thought seems as barbaric to me as ancient Roman gladiatorial spectacles where death was the norm.

 

[progressive hunter]

In the grand scheme of life, there's no such thing as rights. It's a fallacy.

A guy claims they have the right to life, I shoot him dead. He now needs to lecture me on how his right to life is working out for him.

in the grand scheme of things thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard,,

if you shoot someone you have violated their right to life unless they were a direct threat to your life

 

[task0778]

Ok, so as I understand it the goal you portray is "freedom of exchange".
But as I said, that would be the ideal of capitalism.
For centuries capitalism co-existed with slavery (in fact ending slavery met with fierce opposition in many parts of the world).
There are many aspects of that exchange freedom which are subject to debate.
Should it include the liberty to employ labor from abroad?
Should it include the liberty to move abroad to search for the best employer?
Or should such freedom be restricted to the free movement of capital and gods?

To me capitalism should be reduced to a sort of "game" a game we play to be more productive and efficient. But that said , as in all games it should not be allowed to turn into a life or death situation for anyone, the thought seems as barbaric to me as ancient Roman gladiatorial spectacles where death was the norm.

"Ok, so as I understand it the goal you portray is "freedom of exchange"." Absolutely. Otherwise, you're talking about extortion, bribery, and all sorts of other corruption that existed in every economic model known to man since the beginning of civilization and maybe even before that. IOW, corruption is not exclusive or endemic to capitalism.



"For centuries capitalism co-existed with slavery (in fact ending slavery met with fierce opposition in many parts of the world)." Slavery existed a long time before Capitalism came along. To equate the two is nonsense, it's like saying people lie, cheat, and steal due to capitalism.


"Should it include the liberty to employ labor from abroad?" Yes, as long as the law of the land allows it under given circumstances.


"Should it include the liberty to move abroad to search for the best employer?" Yes, as long as the law of the land allows it under given circumstances.


"Or should such freedom be restricted to the free movement of capital and goods?" Not sure I understand, are you referring to tariffs, duties, quotas, taxation and the like?


It seems to me that people begin to equate capitalism with government when the two are quite different. Capitalism is an economic model that basically has no rules or laws beyond the reality that it should be voluntary and one may buy or sell at the price they set. Human behavior being what it is, government has to legislate and control to some extent what free market to offer the maximum public good while preventing corruption that is harmful, and that is true for any and every economic model. Whether or not the government does a good job of that is not the fault of capitalism.

 

[progressive hunter]

It seems to me that people begin to equate capitalism with government when the two are quite different. Capitalism is an economic model that basically has no rules or laws beyond the reality that it is voluntary and once may buy or sell at the price they set. Human behavior being what it is, government has to legislate and control to some extent that free market to offer the maximum public good while preventing corruption that is harmful, and that is true for any and every economic model. Whether or not the government does a good job of that is not the fault of capitalism.

capitalism is a base term,, free market and crony or government controlled capitalism are more specific terms,,

if government is involved dictating the who what when and where its not free market capitalism,,

 

[Captain Caveman]

in the grand scheme of things thats the stupidest thing I have ever heard,,

if you shoot someone you have violated their right to life unless they were a direct threat to your life

You think it's stupid because you're naive.

The plane you are on crashes and you end up on a desert island. Please explain your right to free speech, your right to bear arms etc.. When a predator comes along to eat you, why didn't it respect your "alleged" rights?

A right is what you want with no government interference, nothing more, nothing less. These "allowances" vary from country to country.

 

[task0778]

if government is involved dictating the who what when and where its not free market capitalism,,

Philosophically you could say that, but in reality a pure free market capitalistic economy does not exist and I doubt ever will. The best we've got is some sort of bastardized free market capitalism that has to require regulation to prevent as much as possible the corruption that can result if people are left to their own devices.

 

[progressive hunter]

Philosophically you could say that, but in reality a pure free market capitalistic economy does not exist and I doubt ever will. The best we've got is some sort of bastardized free market capitalism that has to require regulation to prevent as much as possible the corruption that can result if people are left to their own devices.

bastardized is a mild term for what we have,,

I agree some regs are needed,, but its gone way to far into cronyism for my tastes,,

 

[Blues Man]

Allow me to rephrase the question: What is the goal of allowing a capitalist system to run a country?

Government is what runs a country.

Capitalism is just an economic system where the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned

 

[Oddball]

This is just a philosophical question. Is there a goal for capitalism at all? Is it to maximize personal liberty or production? or is it to maximize well being?

Produce something of greater perceived added value than what it cost you to make it....Then sell it to people willing to voluntarily trade what they have for it.

Then make more stuff to sell...Then go to Fiji!

 

[Oddball]

Philosophically you could say that, but in reality a pure free market capitalistic economy does not exist and I doubt ever will. The best we've got is some sort of bastardized free market capitalism that has to require regulation to prevent as much as possible the corruption that can result if people are left to their own devices.

The drug trade.

Though you could argue that it wouldn't exist without laws against drugs, it has no formal centrally planned and chartered structure.....Pure laissez-faire.

 

[progressive hunter]

Government is what runs a country.

Capitalism is just an economic system where the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned

privately owned,, corporations are creations of government

 

[Mexicano]

Government is what runs a country.

Capitalism is just an economic system where the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned

There are power imbalances imbued in capitalism.
The government is strongly influenced by lobbying groups and special interest groups.

Capitalism needs state protection to effectively exist ( just as any other economic system).
But the above is beyond the matter: why pursue the existence of a capitalist economic system?

 

[progressive hunter]

There are power imbalances imbued in capitalism.
The government is strongly influenced by lobbying groups and special interest groups.

Capitalism needs state protection to effectively exist ( just as any other economic system).
But the above is beyond the matter: why pursue the existence of a capitalist economic system?

thats crony capitalism not free market capitalism,,

you need to learn the difference,,

 

[Mexicano]

wrong again

property rights are protected by the government not granted,, theres no such right as a right to safety,, life and liberty are protected by government not granted,,
free market is what it is,, all government can do is restrict it,,

again youre wrong,, government regulations are the opposite of a free market system,,,

you should stop reading marx and get up to speed,, you sound like the typical college de-educated useful idiot,,

I don't like to get into semantics discussions, for practical purposes the difference is minimal.
So I will rephrase my statement:
Those property rights are also regulations, they are man-made constructs, that rule how societies work and how disputes are solved.
Capitalism exists within such a framework of regulations.
Completely irregulated capitalism looks like what drug cartels do to gain market dominance.

By the by, I've read very little about Marx, but most of Adam Smith's first 2 books of the wealth of nations, as well as some fragments from Keynes and Schumpeter.

 

[progressive hunter]

I don't like to get into semantics discussions, for practical purposes the difference is minimal.
So I will rephrase my statement:
Those property rights are also regulations, they are man-made constructs, that rule how societies work and how disputes are solved.
Capitalism exists within such a framework of regulations.
Completely irregulated capitalism looks like what drug cartels do to gain market dominance.

By the by, I've read very little about Marx, but most of Adam Smith's first 2 books of the wealth of nations, as well as some fragments from Keynes and Schumpeter.

nothing semantic about it,,

property rights are inherent and its the governments job to protect it not grant it,, just like other rights stated in the constitution,,

if you have regulations thats not free market thats government controlled capitalism,,, theres a difference,,

I have tried to address each of your points directly,, you have ignored every point I have made and just repeat the same garbage,,

 

[task0778]

The government is strongly influenced by lobbying groups and special interest groups.

That is a problem of weak governance, NOT capitalism or any other economic model.

Capitalism needs state protection to effectively exist ( just as any other economic system).

No, it requires effective and efficient regulation, but NOT protection.

why pursue the existence of a capitalist economic system?

Because it is by far the productive economic model in the history of mankind. It produces far more wealth and rises the standard of living in so many ways. Over the past 200 years or so, mankind has made enormous advances in every possible way to the betterment of everyone around the world, and by far the primary reason or cause for that is capitalism.

 

[sparky]

Adam smith capitalism would result in monopoly with poverty for all. Total capitalism doesn’t have morals or ethical behaviors for either people or business.

A Smith was an 18th century sheep herder who's idea of globalism was trading wool for spice w/ India

But i digress, you're spot on w/capitalism in it's raw form w/out a leash

Raw Capitalism off it's leash is an animal that eats itself

~S~

 

[Rye Catcher]

I dont need to read your crap about capitalism for the simple reason that I've used capitalism to further my life.
I dropped out of high school in the 10th grade and yet I was able to retire at 46.
That alone blows anything you have to say against capitalism out of the water.
So try again....

Yeah, I have a post graduate degree and retired at age 57 on the Safety Retirement. Did you retire on the sales of drugs, and it was me and those who I supervised arrested you and now is in prison or on parole?

 

[progressive hunter]

Yeah, I have a post graduate degree and retired at age 57 on the Safety Retirement. Did you retire on the sales of drugs, and it was me and those who I supervised arrested you and now is in prison or on parole?

prove it??