What is Israel's legal "right to exist?"

[abi]

All You have debunked is Your own BS

No, it was your continuous Jewish presence myth that has been debunked by your own source.

 

[rylah]

All You have debunked is Your own BS

No, it was your continuous Jewish presence myth that has been debunked by your own source.

So when was it that Jews "disappeared" from the land?

 

[The Irish Ram]

That land belonged to Britain. And was given to Israel by them. There was not then, nor is there now, a Palestine.

You are arguing that international law supports a group of men giving another group of men, another peoples land? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but is this what you are claiming?

...the inevitable creation of the Jewish state of Israel was totally legal.

This is what I am looking for. How so?

I'll throw this out again. If the Palestinian leadership would declare themselves as a peaceful and independent country within the borders they have now via Oslo, and denounce any further violence in the area, recognize the State of Israel and enter into negotiations on that platform; then the world would be more likely to be behind them 100%

Off topic, but outside of the zionists, the world is nearly 100% behind them.

What land are you calling other people's??
No one was there. What you have now are Arabs whose ancestors left Israel at the behest of Egypt, who was about to invade Israel, and whom Egypt refused to take in when they lost the war. So they squatted on the end of Israel.

The leadership you refer to is a terrorist group called Hamas. Why not give Washington DC to ISIS? Same thing..

 

[The Irish Ram]

All You have debunked is Your own BS

No, it was your continuous Jewish presence myth that has been debunked by your own source.

So when was it that Jews "disappeared" from the land?

There was no continuous Jewish presence there.
In the late 1800's there was 0 Jewish presence there.
When Britain turned that land over to the Jews, 8.6% of the land was owned by Jews. 3.3% was owned by resident Arabs who were paid handsomely for their property.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It is legal to give property that you own at the time, to whomever you want. That land belonged to the British Empire to do with what they wanted. The very same land belonged to the Jews at one time. Another time it belonged to Rome. Another time it belonged to the Ottoman Empire. When Britain gave it to the Jews, it belonged to Britain. Egypt wanted it to belong to them. And it would have had their invasion had been successful. To the victor go the spoils.
The return to Jewish land fulfilled several Biblical prophesies. One that God would gather them back, and another that Israel would become a nation in one day. He did. It did.
And we would be wise to leave them alone.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I must admit that after reading several of Shusha's posts and others as well, I have grown quite confused on this issue. I always assumed, I guess, that the UN mandate in '47 was that legal right, but Shusha and others disagreed.

Others on "team Israel" claim that God gave them this land, but that is not what I hope this thread will be about.

Is there a legal basis for the zionists in Palestine? What does international law really say? Is international law even binding on the zionist regime? And if it is not the UN mandate that gave them this legal right, then what is it?

Thanks for any help.

‘Others on "team Israel" claim that God gave them this land…’

That’s a stupid thing to say.

Something that doesn’t exist can’t give anything to anyone.

Otherwise, Israel exists because the United States says it does – whether it’s right or not, or legal or not, is irrelevant.

And the Israel has been very successful over the decades manipulating and bamboozling American officials into believing Israel has a ‘right’ to exist.

 

[Shusha]

Is there a legal basis for the zionists in Palestine? What does international law really say? Is international law even binding on the zionist regime? And if it is not the UN mandate that gave them this legal right, then what is it?

Thanks for any help.

I appreciate you asking for help and for more information.

The question can't be answered without establishing the legal precedent for rights to sovereignty, self-determination and independence.The way to address the question is to ask, generally and objectively, how rights arise, and from where. Current IHL gives us four answers, in varying degrees of prominence.

1. Rights which are inherent.
2. Rights arising from international recognition.
3. Rights consisting of mutual agreement.
4. Rights arising from effective action or control.

Israel (the Jewish people) have rights in all four spheres.

 

[abi]

‘Others on "team Israel" claim that God gave them this land…’

That’s a stupid thing to say.

Something that doesn’t exist can’t give anything to anyone.

Otherwise, Israel exists because the United States says it does – whether it’s right or not, or legal or not, is irrelevant.

Yup.

And the Israel has been very successful over the decades manipulating and bamboozling American officials into believing Israel has a ‘right’ to exist.

Yup.

 

[abi]

Israel (the Jewish people)

And that is where you lose everything... every time.

 

[Shusha]

Israel (the Jewish people)

And that is where you lose everything... every time.

YES! Exactly. Because the Arab mentality is that the Jewish people have no rights. That rights apply to other peoples but not to the Jewish people. That the Arab peoples have rights based on objective principles of:

1. inherent rights
2. international recognition
3. mutual agreement
4. effective action

BUT the Jewish people hold none of those objective rights. The Palestinian mentality is that the ONLY solution is that Jews must have nothing because Jews have no rights.

 

[abi]

YES! Exactly. Because the Arab mentality is that the Jewish people have no rights. That rights apply to other peoples but not to the Jewish people. That the Arab peoples have rights based on objective principles of:

1. inherent rights
2. international recognition
3. mutual agreement
4. effective action

BUT the Jewish people hold none of those objective rights. The Palestinian mentality is that the ONLY solution is that Jews must have nothing because Jews have no rights.

No, for the X-to-1000th or so time, the zionists do not speak for the Jewish people and are actually our greatest enemy.

 

[Shusha]

YES! Exactly. Because the Arab mentality is that the Jewish people have no rights. That rights apply to other peoples but not to the Jewish people. That the Arab peoples have rights based on objective principles of:

1. inherent rights
2. international recognition
3. mutual agreement
4. effective action

BUT the Jewish people hold none of those objective rights. The Palestinian mentality is that the ONLY solution is that Jews must have nothing because Jews have no rights.

No, for the X-to-1000th or so time, the zionists do not speak for the Jewish people and are actually our greatest enemy.

But this is not what we are discussing.

DO the Jewish people have those four rights? Or do they not? Collectively.

 

[abi]

But this is not what we are discussing.

DO the Jewish people have those four rights? Or do they not? Collectively.

It was. You discuss that exact thing on every thread. It gets pointed out to you how obtuse the concept is. You continue. Rinse, wash, repeat.

 

[Shusha]

But this is not what we are discussing.

DO the Jewish people have those four rights? Or do they not? Collectively.

It was. You discuss that exact thing on every thread. It gets pointed out to you how obtuse the concept is. You continue. Rinse, wash, repeat.

My rinse, wash, repeat exists because Team Palestine can not or will not answer simple questions.

Here it is again.

Objectively, rights to self-determination, sovereignty and independence arise from four aspects in IHL. Here they are again:

1. Inherent human rights
2. International recognition
3. Mutual agreement
4. Effective action

Do the Jewish hold those rights? Its a yes or no question.

 

[abi]

Everyone does, but you continuously infer that "the Jewish people" (in quotes because you use the term incorrectly) have a special class of rights allowing for racism, ethnic cleansing, murder for the sake of land theft, invoking the name of the Jewish people for this purpose, harming children and more because that is how God wants it or because that is how a bunch of white guys at San Remo wanted it or that is because might is right.

It's all a cesspool of crap and it harms the Jewish people as it holds back humanity from attaining a true and lasting peace.

 

[Shusha]

Everyone does, but you continuously infer that "the Jewish people" (in quotes because you use the term incorrectly) have a special class of rights allowing for racism, ethnic cleansing, murder for the sake of land theft, invoking the name of the Jewish people for this purpose, harming children and more because that is how God wants it or because that is how a bunch of white guys at San Remo wanted it or that is because might is right.

It's all a cesspool of crap and it harms the Jewish people as it holds back humanity from attaining a true and lasting peace.

Now, now, now. Let's just leave the goal posts where they were.

We AGREE that the Jewish people hold all four of those rights: inherency, recognition, agreement and effectiveness.

SO. You have the answer to your OP. This thread is done. Israel's legal right to exist is found in the exact same rights as everyone's. Those four.

Glad I could be of help.

 

[abi]

We AGREE that the Jewish people...

No, stop, the zionists are not the Jewish people.

 

[Shusha]

We AGREE that the Jewish people...

No, stop, the zionists are not the Jewish people.

WOW. Whoa. Really? So if I believe I have a legal right to self-determination, sovereignty and independence then I am no longer part of the Jewish people?! WTF?

 

[abi]

WOW. Whoa. Really? So if I believe I have a legal right to self-determination, sovereignty and independence then I am no longer part of the Jewish people?! WTF?

Stop, we've been through this, the zionists and the Jews are different entities. Calm down with the feigning indignance BS, it's transparent.

 

[rylah]

All You have debunked is Your own BS

No, it was your continuous Jewish presence myth that has been debunked by your own source.

So when was it that Jews "disappeared" from the land?

There was no continuous Jewish presence there.
In the late 1800's there was 0 Jewish presence there.
When Britain turned that land over to the Jews, 8.6% of the land was owned by Jews. 3.3% was owned by resident Arabs who were paid handsomely for their property.

Joking right??!

Old Yishuv - Wikipedia