'What Caused Capitalism?'

[MaryL]

I love this thread. Very simple question, what caused capitalism? Capitalism is much simpler than communism. If I want the smithy down the way to shod my horse, I repay him with mopping his floors or darning his socks. In a small community, that works. But how do I pay someone in China for building my I-phone? Money, capital, it all works, it's simple.

 

[bripat9643]

Communism works in small settings. When you are talking about a community, a village, a tribe it works. But there are 7 billion people on the planet now with no ties to other groups, and the money, promissory notes, whatever that can be used to feed a family, that transcends trust in a small tribal setting. Communism basically can't be stretched across all borders and tribal/familial or other boundaries because it's human nature not to trust or need those outside your sphere .

No, it doesn't even work on the tribe level of they have agriculture. It only works for hunter-gatherer societies. The minute humans started growing their own food, communism went out the window.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Interesting article. By Jeremy Adelman | Foreign Affairs | 13th May 2015

Hopefully you can read this, I check them out through thebrowser.com.

What Caused Capitalism

Quotes only haphazardly related. lol But hopefully they will whet your appetite and help you see the complexity of economics in the modern world and lose the ideologies that often excuse the status quo.

"Most interactions with people that you trust, people that you love, or people that just need to cooperate with on an immediate basis, take the form of “From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.” It doesn’t matter if you’re working for the government, working for a corporation, or working in your family; if you need to fix the toilet because it’s leaking and you say “Hand me the wrench,” the other guy doesn’t say “What do I get for that?” It’s not an exchange; people act according to their abilities to chip in. Ironically communism is applied because it’s the only thing that works; it’s the most efficient way to allocate resources. Thus I like to say that you could argue that capitalism is just a bad way of organizing communism." David Graeber

Mod Edit:

• Copyright. Link Each "Copy & Paste" to It's Source. Only paste a small to medium section of the material.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/the-self-destruction-of-the-1-percent.html

2 problems with this take on communism being a natural human behavior.

For my family, I'll fix that toilet for free, because I love my family and I find personal satisfaction in giving of myself to people that I care about. Working with a corporation or for the government, though, I absolutely am saying "what do I get for that". I don't love everybody, not on an emotional level. Very few people do, and most of those who claim to believe they're supposed to, but don't actually feel it. Love doesn't typically work that way.

Don't agree? Watch the evening news with anyone on the planet. When an event is reported that involves the death of someone that person has never met, see if they react with the same emphatic sadness to that news as they would if the victim was a close family member. I'll wager the response is less emotional roughly 100 times out of 100, because the nasty little truth is that humans, even those who call themselves humanist, are generally only emotionally attached to those with whom they have actually bonded.

So, stating that our willingness to give of ourselves in small groups implies that humans naturally seek to utilize their abilities for the sake of society ignores the nature of the emotional functions leading to that behavior in small groups and the easily observable fact that those functions don't extend to "everyone".

The second, and perhaps more fatal flaw in this excerpt's logic, is the lack of acknowledgement toward the human tendency to resist force. In small groups, the giving is voluntary. In a communist society, you don't get to choose who your abilities help. The proletariat chooses, and if you disagree, tough titties. Doing something because you want to (giving to your family) and doing something because the government compells you are extremely different on an emotional level, so saying one behavior indicates an affinity for the other ignores the massive difference between voluntary and forced, and thus a huge factor in human psychology.

Don't agree? Look at the bubble vacuum toys that we give to toddlers. As children, they love to emulate mommy and daddy and vacuum the floor. Couple years later, you put the real vacuum in their hands and tell them it has to be done once a week and suddenly it isn't fun. The obligation steals much of the joy from the task. This function is common knowledge. Why do commies ignore it?

 

[MaryL]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

 

[regent]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

 

[MaryL]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

 

[regent]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

 

[bripat9643]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

 

[regent]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

 

[bripat9643]

I would dare to go on a limb here: if it weren't for capitalism, we wouldn't have modern technology that were driven to development for profit under capitalism. We wouldn't have landed a man on the moon.

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

 

[regent]

Can you imagine the uproar in the US when the USSR launched sputnik?
The US government quickly appropriated money for science in the schools and began programs to catch up. But you're right, there was no profit in exploring space so the
USSR beat us to the punch.

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

Change is not reality?
Maybe you spend too much time on the triangle problem?
The change from a feudal economy to capitalism probably occurred during the
Age of Enlightenment. The Age of Enlightenment was also responsible for our revolution, our Constitution and other great changes in Europe. We are still making changes, some to our economic system some in our political system, economic system, industry and so on.

 

[bripat9643]

The soviet union collapsed like a big obese cancerous bear because communism isn't practical. Now, what puzzles me, is China, that huge anachronism based on flawed economics, just keeps on going and reinventing itself. I wonder, How much longer is THAT going to last?

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

Change is not reality?
Maybe you spend too much time on the triangle problem?
The change from a feudal economy to capitalism probably occurred during the
Age of Enlightenment. The Age of Enlightenment was also responsible for our revolution, our Constitution and other great changes in Europe. We are still making changes, some to our economic system some in our political system, economic system, industry and so on.

What does that have to do with Marxism and communism? Not all change is good. Just ask the Romans after their capital city was sacked. The changes we are making are destroying this country.

 

[regent]

The USSR never practiced Marx, they had their own programs and changed them at time. No country has ever practiced Marx and our experiment here in Indiana failed too. Most economies in the western world mixtures of capitalism and socialism, and China has dropped the phony communism thing and probably is joining the other nations in the SOC and CAP mixture.

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

Change is not reality?
Maybe you spend too much time on the triangle problem?
The change from a feudal economy to capitalism probably occurred during the
Age of Enlightenment. The Age of Enlightenment was also responsible for our revolution, our Constitution and other great changes in Europe. We are still making changes, some to our economic system some in our political system, economic system, industry and so on.

What does that have to do with Marxism and communism? Not all change is good. Just ask the Romans after their capital city was sacked. The changes we are making are destroying this country.

Of course not all change is good, and some changes are designed to be bad. Marxism and communism were one of the failures, but look at the number of people and nations that it lured, and the havoc and costs of communism to the world and the US? What was the lure of communism? As have mentioned Bismarck of Germany, in the 1890's, realized the lure of communism, but instead of having a crusade against communism he gave Germany socialized medicine. So what is the lure of change?
A footnote, what are the changes that are destroying America?

 

[bripat9643]

If any country actually tried to practice Marxism, the population would disappear within 2 weeks.

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

Change is not reality?
Maybe you spend too much time on the triangle problem?
The change from a feudal economy to capitalism probably occurred during the
Age of Enlightenment. The Age of Enlightenment was also responsible for our revolution, our Constitution and other great changes in Europe. We are still making changes, some to our economic system some in our political system, economic system, industry and so on.

What does that have to do with Marxism and communism? Not all change is good. Just ask the Romans after their capital city was sacked. The changes we are making are destroying this country.

Of course not all change is good, and some changes are designed to be bad. Marxism and communism were one of the failures, but look at the number of people and nations that it lured, and the havoc and costs of communism to the world and the US? What was the lure of communism? As have mentioned Bismarck of Germany, in the 1890's, realized the lure of communism, but instead of having a crusade against communism he gave Germany socialized medicine. So what is the lure of change?
A footnote, what are the changes that are destroying America?

So you're trying to say that communism is actually a good thing?

 

[regent]

So why did Marx's dialectical materialism fail to come to pass?

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

Change is not reality?
Maybe you spend too much time on the triangle problem?
The change from a feudal economy to capitalism probably occurred during the
Age of Enlightenment. The Age of Enlightenment was also responsible for our revolution, our Constitution and other great changes in Europe. We are still making changes, some to our economic system some in our political system, economic system, industry and so on.

What does that have to do with Marxism and communism? Not all change is good. Just ask the Romans after their capital city was sacked. The changes we are making are destroying this country.

Of course not all change is good, and some changes are designed to be bad. Marxism and communism were one of the failures, but look at the number of people and nations that it lured, and the havoc and costs of communism to the world and the US? What was the lure of communism? As have mentioned Bismarck of Germany, in the 1890's, realized the lure of communism, but instead of having a crusade against communism he gave Germany socialized medicine. So what is the lure of change?
A footnote, what are the changes that are destroying America?

So you're trying to say that communism is actually a good thing?

No, I was saying that the lure of a better way of life is the key to politics. So promises are made to people that if they only follow communist, liberal, fascist, socialist, conservative, Republican, Democratic or capitalist policies they can have, or can keep, that better life.
That, better life, was the lure of communism. Did it work, what has communism cost us in lives, money and discord?

 

[bripat9643]

Because it's a fantasy, not reality. Why can't I draw a triangle with four sides?

Change is not reality?
Maybe you spend too much time on the triangle problem?
The change from a feudal economy to capitalism probably occurred during the
Age of Enlightenment. The Age of Enlightenment was also responsible for our revolution, our Constitution and other great changes in Europe. We are still making changes, some to our economic system some in our political system, economic system, industry and so on.

What does that have to do with Marxism and communism? Not all change is good. Just ask the Romans after their capital city was sacked. The changes we are making are destroying this country.

Of course not all change is good, and some changes are designed to be bad. Marxism and communism were one of the failures, but look at the number of people and nations that it lured, and the havoc and costs of communism to the world and the US? What was the lure of communism? As have mentioned Bismarck of Germany, in the 1890's, realized the lure of communism, but instead of having a crusade against communism he gave Germany socialized medicine. So what is the lure of change?
A footnote, what are the changes that are destroying America?

So you're trying to say that communism is actually a good thing?

No, I was saying that the lure of a better way of life is the key to politics. So promises are made to people that if they only follow communist, liberal, fascist, socialist, conservative, Republican, Democratic or capitalist policies they can have, or can keep, that better life.
That, better life, was the lure of communism. Did it work, what has communism cost us in lives, money and discord?

The propaganda they use is irrelevant to the issue of which is the best system.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Communism works in small settings.

No idea what you are talking about?? Why doesn't capitalism work in small settings??

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Interesting article. By Jeremy Adelman | Foreign Affairs | 13th May 2015

Hopefully you can read this, I check them out through thebrowser.com.

What Caused Capitalism

Quotes only haphazardly related. lol But hopefully they will whet your appetite and help you see the complexity of economics in the modern world and lose the ideologies that often excuse the status quo.

"Most interactions with people that you trust, people that you love, or people that just need to cooperate with on an immediate basis, take the form of “From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.” It doesn’t matter if you’re working for the government, working for a corporation, or working in your family; if you need to fix the toilet because it’s leaking and you say “Hand me the wrench,” the other guy doesn’t say “What do I get for that?” It’s not an exchange; people act according to their abilities to chip in. Ironically communism is applied because it’s the only thing that works; it’s the most efficient way to allocate resources. Thus I like to say that you could argue that capitalism is just a bad way of organizing communism." David Graeber

Mod Edit:

• Copyright. Link Each "Copy & Paste" to It's Source. Only paste a small to medium section of the material.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/the-self-destruction-of-the-1-percent.html

Hack logic on all fronts.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. So what is the lure of change?

stupid question of course, all humans beings support change for the better.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

A footnote, what are the changes that are destroying America?

liberal changes are destroying America. For example, the highest corporate taxes in world are driving our corporations away.